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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1244565 -

I agree, but what if the other programs are necessary as well? Either way do you agree that deficit spending is poor monetary management?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1244573 -

He increases it b/c he must fund shit like Homeland.
Don't even get me started on the Homeland Security program. That sounds like something Hilter would have come up with.

This tax cut will take a couple years to actually work.
Why? How long?

As far as I know, this deficit plays little to nothing a role in my everyday life.
Then I would presume you know very little.

But you'll get more money and with the more jobs from the tax break there will be more.
Well we got tax breaks in 2000. How well did that work?

I understand where you're coming from, Clinton had his way of handling it
Creating jobs?

Bush is doing it his way. All I can do is see how well it works.
It really isn't his way. Trickle down, and supply side economics has been tried before. Just look how well it worked for Reagan, and Bush-41.

The way it looks to my eyes is that it will take a little longer without the aggravation of the loss of a hard earned paycheck. But if anything its better than having half your paycheck taken away.
Who has half their paycheck taken away? Name me one person.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1245028 -

Quote:
Quote:
But if you increase spending you must increase taxes to cover the increased spending.


Bullshit. What should be done if spending increases are necessary for a program is reduce spending elsewhere. They take far more than they should now.


I don't know why you're calling bullshit, since that's exactly what I've been saying. My point is that Bush is increasing spending and decreasing taxes, which is tremendously irresponsible. Either spending cuts need to be made, or taxes need to be increased. Neither is happening.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1245210 -

Quote:
My point is that Bush is increasing spending and decreasing taxes, which is tremendously irresponsible. Either spending cuts need to be made, or taxes need to be increased. Neither is happening.


I believe that Bush has pushed for and received more spending increases than Clinton, so much for being a 'conservative.' The modern conservatives, are only against increased spending and increased debt when it is for programs which they oppose (the same could be said of the modern 'liberals').


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1245299 -

"As far as I know, this deficit plays little to nothing a role in my everyday life."

I hope you don't me sharing some information to help put it in perspective. Ten percent of all tax dollars collected goes towards paying interest on the national debt. How much does that amount to exactly? That averages out to about $2,000 per taxpater per year. This is money that we must pay every year for the rest of our lives even if the Government doesn't spend a penny on anything whatsoever, unless the country decides to have a budget surplus, which is required to reduce and eventually eliminate the national debt. Even if we have no defecit, we will still have to pay $2,000 interest per taxpayer per year on the current debt forever unless/until a budget surplus pays it off. And a one year surplus isn't nearly enough to pay off the debt. The debt is so hight that iIt will require many, many years to pay off. It's 6.4 TRILLION dollars! That entire balance still needs to be paid off in addition to the annual interest payments.

Since it appears there will be another federal defecit under Bush, our national debt will increase even more, so we will actually be responsible for more than $2,000 per taxpayer per year for life. Ugh. As much I hate taxes, I'd be in favor of increasing taxes for a few years if and only if the purpose was to eliminate the national debt.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1245374 -

Quote:
Don't even get me started on the Homeland Security program. That sounds like something Hilter would have come up with.


What to collectively use all these organization's resources?

Quote:
Why? How long?


Not immediately.

Quote:
It really isn't his way. Trickle down, and supply side economics has been tried before. Just look how well it worked for Reagan, and Bush-41.



Reagan didn't have the World Trade attacked.

Quote:
I understand where you're coming from, Clinton had his way of handling it
Creating jobs?



You mean putting people out of jobs.
Quote:
Who has half their paycheck taken away? Name me one person.


I was referring to the Clinton Administration.

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Evolving]
    #1245445 -

Very true. However, Clinton was not handing out tax cuts while at the same time spending all that money.

Didn't Bush fire his economic advisor a few months ago?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1245446 -

What to collectively use all these organization's resources?
Are you really that ignorant?

Not immediately
So how long, that is what I am asking? And why?

Reagan didn't have the World Trade attacked.
Having the WTC attacked has absolutely nothing to do with how an economic stimulous package will work. WTF are you talking about?

You mean putting people out of jobs.
Again, WTF are you talking about? Unemployment was pretty damn low under the Clinton administration. It isn't terribly high now, but Bush certainly hasn't created any new jobs. I heard the numbers for how many jobs were created per month under Clinton, as opposed to how many jobs that have been lost per month under Bush, I will have to do some searching.

I was referring to the Clinton Administration.
Again, name me one person that has had half of their paycheck taken out for federal taxes.

You really don't know much about anything do you? You managed to play politician with every question, and you did a pretty poor job at that. You were not able to answer a single question with any thought or relivance to the topic. You remind me a sheep, blindly following Bush without paying any attention to where you are going. One of these days that lemming is going to jump right off a cliff, hopefully taking the flock of Busheep with him.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1245487 -

Quote:
Busheep 

That is great, very clever.  :grin:


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1246022 -

GoBlue! writes:

But there are some conservatives who do believe in conservative principles, but also believe in taxes...

I repeat -- To a Conservative the PRINCIPLE involved is what those taxes are used for. If they are used for providing legitimate functions of government (cops, courts, military), no objection. If they are used for income redistribution, endowment of the arts, gifts to third world countries (whose rulers immediately deposit 90% of it in their personal bank accounts), etc., then they object.

But until enough people believe in Libertarianism, I believe charity is insufficient for the time being.

Thus justifying the seizure of peoples' property? So sorry, that is not Libertarian.

As you're aware, the Libertarian Party line is: "We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose."

Yes, I am aware of it. Are you?

I believe in this principle more than that of any other party.

But you have not yet fully grasped the principle in which you profess to believe. What do you think this means: all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose ?

If you believe that individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, does this not mean that they (not the majority) have the right to determine towards which goals their efforts are directed?

If you believe that individuals have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, does this not include the right to determine how much of their effort should be expended on strangers, and on which strangers it should be expended? What gives the majority the right to supercede their wishes?

If you can only be a "hard core" party member, then every party has a much smaller membership than they think.

There are flavors of Libertarians, true. Some believe there should be no use of public money on cops or courts -- they believe in the privatization of both. At the other end of the spectrum, some Libertarians believe it is okay to use public money for roads. Some even believe it is okay to use public money on education.

But NO Libertarian believes in any government income redistribution scheme. Not one. Just as no Communist believes in privately-held means of production.

I sympathize with your frustration at not finding a label which seems to accurately describe your political views, but "Libertarian" is definitely not such a label.

pinky


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1246046 -

Quote:
If they are used for providing legitimate functions of government (cops, courts, military), no objection.


Here is where liberals and conservatives disagree. Liberals believe welfare and social programs ARE legitimate functions of government. Most of Western Europe certainly agrees with this. Conservatives, however, do not.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1246098 -

No, I tried ro give him credit too when I first got to the forum. After a few weeks I too realized he's a total moron.

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1246507 -


name me one person that has had half of their paycheck taken out for federal taxes.

I know someone who for every dollar he made, 60 cents were taken away.
Not all of it was federal tax though, it was everything combined(state tax, federal
tax, Social Security tax, local tax, etc..etc..).

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1246993 -

Quote:
Who has half their paycheck taken away? Name me one person.


Today? No-one, because Reagan got legislation passed to lower the tax rate to a 38% max. Before that, there were quite a few.

And even today, if you add in the payroll tax (FICA) I believe you'll find many do pay over 50%. Not 100% sure of the exact amount though.

I just went and looked.
38.6% - Top Fed Income Tax Rate
2.9% - Top FICA Medicare Rate
12.4% - Top FICA - OASDI Rate

That adds up to 53.9%. All of it Federal taxes on income.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/24/03 11:55 PM)

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1248195 -

"If they are used for providing legitimate functions of government (cops, courts, military), no objection."

I don't think there will ever be concensus of what "legitimate" functions of Government are.

"I sympathize with your frustration at not finding a label which seems to accurately describe your political views, but "Libertarian" is definitely not such a label."

The thing I like best about the Libertarian party is their tremendous support of individual freedoms - for people to live in "whatever manner they choose". They support the freedom to do shrooms in the privacy of your own home, to buy a hooker if you choose, etc... Basically, that there should be only a handful of laws to prevent theft, murder, etc.

When I register to vote, I am asked what party I belong to. If you don't want me to help strengthen the small size of the Libertarian party, what other party would you recommend that supports freedom to the level of the Libertarian party???

PS - I agree with Ben Franklin. He said something like "in life only two things are certain - death and taxes". Is there any country in the world that doesn't have taxes?


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1248676 -

GoBlue! writes:

I don't think there will ever be concensus of what "legitimate" functions of Government are.

As long as some people feel it is fine and dandy for governments to initiate force against their disarmed populace, there will never be consensus, no.

When I register to vote, I am asked what party I belong to. If you don't want me to help strengthen the small size of the Libertarian party, what other party would you recommend that supports freedom to the level of the Libertarian party???

If you want to vote for Libertarian candidates, do so. If you want to donate to their campaigns, do so. If you want to persuade others to read Libertarian literature, do so. But registering as a Libertarian on the voters list means nothing, and strengthens the Libertarian party in no way at all. And defending Democrats and income redistribution programs on a public forum while calling yourself a Libertarian does worse than nothing, it HARMS the Libertarian party.

Is there any country in the world that doesn't have taxes?

Is there any country in the world that is governed by Libertarians?

And -- for the third time -- the fundamental PRINCIPLE at stake here is what those taxes are used FOR. What part of that statement is unclear to you?

pinky


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1249056 -

"As long as some people feel it is fine and dandy for governments to initiate force against their disarmed populace, there will never be consensus, no."

A better way to say that is that unless ALL Libertarians are against taxes of any sort, then there will never be consensus.

"If you want to donate to their campaigns, do so."

I have been making annual donations.

"defending Democrats and income redistribution programs on a public forum while calling yourself a Libertarian does worse than nothing, it HARMS the Libertarian party."

I went to the Libertarian Party website www.lp.org.  To the far right of the main page is a test called "Are you a Libertarian?  (World's Smallest Political Quiz)"  Here is how I scored:

"According to your answers, your political philosophy is libertarian.
The red dot on the chart shows where you fit on the political map.

Your Personal Self-Government Score is 100%.
Your Economic Self-Government Score is 80%."

Notice how my red dot is on the Liberal side of the chart, but it did not classify me as a Liberal.  You should let them know their test is flawed.  Also notice that my score was not a perfect 100%.

"for the third time -- the fundamental PRINCIPLE at stake here is what those taxes are used FOR. What part of that statement is unclear to you?"

The part that is unclear is how some Libertarians believe taxes are wrong in PRINCIPLE altogether, while others believe they are ok in PRINCIPLE for "legitimate" reasons, which haven't ever been agreed upon.  That's what's unclear.

You should be happy to know that I did some fairly extensive research on pretty much all of the political parties out there, and found that perhaps I would be better off giving my annual donations to the Green Party.  When I first looked into them, there was something I didn't like that made me lean towards the Libertarian Party, but when I checked their home page again today, they didn't seem out of line with my beliefs.  So thanks for enlightening me.  :wink: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1249742 -

Quote:
So that is why both sides are really stupid. I see good idea's get shot down here all the time, and bad one's get applauded, for absolutely no reason besides the fact that whatever party it is you affiliate yourself with told you to think that, or the idea originated from the other party.



Word.


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All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1249747 -

Quote:
I hate politics but it is involved with my life so I choose the party that has the least bullshit and that's the right or Republicans


Do you really believe that?
I don't catagorize myself under any political party so it's not like I'm a democrat who is against all Republican beliefs, but if you think Republicans are the least full of shit I feel sorry for you.


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All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Andytweed]
    #1250137 -

Quote:
if you think Republicans are the least full of shit I feel sorry for you.


I'll rephrase this. Republicans are the least full of shit that have a chance of the 2 major parties to make it in office.

And if you want to tell me the Left, in general, is the least full of shit I think you should open your eyes and look at history.

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