Home | Community | Message Board

Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract, Kratom Powder For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1352920 - 03/05/03 04:22 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I also support military defense because that is the government protecting me and I am glad to pay for the service, likewise the local police.

You seem to believe that these choices, or preferences, apply to everyone. Upon closer inspection, however, your divisions between what is properly the function of government and what is not appear nothing more than personal and arbitrary.

An individual could conceivably argue that he has no need of government military defense because his home is a fortress and he also has a private army armed with the latest weaponry. Why should he be responsible for paying for the protection of everybody else's security and the territorial integrity of the nation in which he lives? That's Collectivism I say! Bad! Bad!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: 1stimer]
    #1352965 - 03/05/03 05:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

And liberals will blindly follow any doctrine that "helps" people regardless of the facts or disadvantages. The left is much more prone to be ruled by its emotions.

I posted above that I would be considered a conservative over a liberal. I am neither religious nor gullible. You, on the other hand, swallow these stereotypes without thinking. That is true gullibility.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1353561 - 03/06/03 02:00 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

But why is that not stealing? Because you support it? If I take your money and spend it on trash fees, would you feel any better than if I give it to charity?

There are several reasons why it is not stealing. First of all it is individually assessed. You would never be forced to pay for my trash, only your own. The current bill is $6.00 a month I think. They charge you and they charge me the same. Secondly, I gave my permission for that bill and service when I decided to live here. I have the choice of living outside the town and choosing to pay a private company instead of the city.

I was such a stickler for fairness that I tried to institute a "pay-per-bag" system so that the rate was prorated so that you only paid for the trash you threw away. Under the current system the little old lady that throws out 1 bag of trash per week is assessed the same amount as the hillbilly family with 9 kids and throws out 17 bags of trash per week. So, in a sense, she is subsidizing the hillbilly family on her fixed income. That is unfair. But it isn't stealing for the same reasons I gave above.

1. She chose to live here.
2. She pays for her trash to be hauled away.
3. She would have to pay someone whether it was the local goverment or a private trash hauler that would charge her double.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1353626 - 03/06/03 03:05 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

You seem to believe that these choices, or preferences, apply to everyone. Upon closer inspection, however, your divisions between what is properly the function of government and what is not appear nothing more than personal and arbitrary.

An individual could conceivably argue that he has no need of government military defense because his home is a fortress and he also has a private army armed with the latest weaponry. Why should he be responsible for paying for the protection of everybody else's security and the territorial integrity of the nation in which he lives? That's Collectivism I say! Bad! Bad!


There are at least two issues here. The first is the fact that according to the document quoted below I have give tacit approval for the collective to protect me. "Provide for the common defence." While the United States Constitution may seem like an arbitrarily conceived document to you that statement is mere rhetorical legerdemain. The same is true of the local constabulary which is written into our city charter.

Please show me the provisions in the Constitution of the United States or our City Charter which gives either government the right to take my money by means of taxes and redistribute it to those who need food, clothing, shelter, or health care.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Your example of a person's private army or defense is an error in logic. As they say, "Hard cases make bad law." It is really an example of the fallacy of secundum quid. You want to make all taxes theft because taxes that are approved by the legislature without a provision in the Constitution, i.e. welfare, health care, etc ad nauseum ad infinitum, the same as taxes with provisions in the Constitution.

So sorry, it doesn't wash.

There have been a plethora of logical fallacies committed during this argument but none are convincing to those with a few critical thinking skills or ability to reason.

We started out with argumentum ad misericordiam (appeal to pity) because the poor helpless souls were elderly and children who were starving. Then we moved swiftly in the same breath to the classic argumentum ad hominem painting those who would disagree with the premise as heartless and cruel. Proceeded to argumentum ad populum (appeal to popular opinion) because everybody knows that we "ought to" feed those who are starving (even if it means stealing from someone else). We even managed to dredge up a fallacy of equivocation and try to redefine what theft was by calling withholding food which is rightfully ours theft if not given to another.

At the end of the day our case is still clear for those capable of reason. Valid logical arguments that constitute proofs or disproofs are intellectually convincing. Rhetorical arguments, if effective, are persuasive, emotionally or intellectually, but never convincing.

Unlike some of the respondents here I do not banter for long with those who cannot understand the premises involved or the reason used to arrive at the proper conclusion. Therefore I have posted my last post in this thread on this argument.

Good day.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegrib
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 550
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1353660 - 03/06/03 03:39 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You would never be forced to pay for my trash, only your own.




Really? I pay for city trash service yet the city makes our HOA pay a private company for trash pick up. Aren't I forced to pay for others trash? What about schools? I went to a private school, yet my parents paid taxes (property tax) to support public schools; shouldn't they have been exempt? We pay taxes for public schools (and they just went up 30%!), our son goes to private school. What about childless people (not to mention people who, for various reasons, can't have children)? They pay tax for schools yet they have no children.



--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1354035 - 03/06/03 07:22 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

taxes are theft. when the government comes to take my money, under threat of force, that is wrong. no, it isn't theft... they are merely forcing me to buy something i don't want. it's extortion. whether they do it in the name of fighting poverty (supporting poverty, heh), or building a strong military, it's still wrong.

as to why conservatives are so "cruel"... nature is cruel.. life is cruel. some people starve, some people die. it's just what happens. when there's a lion on the savanna who can't find enough food, do the other lions help him out? no. and that's how and why nature works. differential survivorship. it is natural, and necessary, for some to starve, or die from disease. maybe it's cruel, but that's life.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1354346 - 03/06/03 09:23 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

when there's a lion on the savanna who can't find enough food, do the other lions help him out? no.

Actually...yeah. They live in prides and when any member of the group makes a kill they all get to eat.

I suppose a conservative lion would stand over the kill saying "I am the only one who deserves to eat because I got up at 5.30am to hunt this wildebeast unlike you libbie layabouts.."


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1354349 - 03/06/03 09:24 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

you know what i mean.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1354640 - 03/06/03 11:12 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

And you, my dear Mr. Mushrooms, make the classic argumentum ad verecundiam fallacy of appeal to authority. Why, in principle , is it correct to take money forcibly for collective defense but not for other purposes? Saying "because it says so in the Constitution" is tantamount to saying "because a few dozen politicians at a particularly important and privileged time in history agreed it should be so." That, my friend, does not wash at all.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract, Kratom Powder For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Why I Hate Liberals AND Conservatives Prosgeopax 2,179 11 08/25/05 06:24 PM
by JesusChrist
* Examining the phenomenon of conservative success in America carbonhoots 958 3 04/15/04 09:36 PM
by BleaK
* Liberals Furious Over New Children's Book
( 1 2 all )
lonestar2004 2,295 36 09/21/05 08:47 PM
by Phred
* Conservatives and racism
( 1 2 all )
LearyfanS 5,001 26 08/16/04 10:03 PM
by Mushmonkey
* Liberals suck. So do conservatives.
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Anonymous 9,662 105 01/26/03 02:53 PM
by GoBlue!
* liberals vs. conservatives
( 1 2 3 4 all )
1stimer 6,110 70 06/21/03 11:32 PM
by Anonymous
* Conservatives
( 1 2 all )
Redo 2,299 31 05/30/04 08:41 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* Liberal vs. Conservative silversoul7 1,502 4 09/19/04 10:34 PM
by RandalFlagg

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,420 topic views. 1 members, 2 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2022 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.036 seconds spending 0.012 seconds on 19 queries.