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Anonymous

Liberals suck. So do conservatives.
    #1237558 - 01/21/03 03:39 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

The basis of republicans is alright, stuff I agree with for the most part. Liberalism at it's root isn't that bad, though some of it ought to go. So why is it that in the real world, the actions of liberals always seem 10x better to me than that of republicans? I'll tell you why.

Each side ends up with certain causes illogically affiliated with their party. For example, abortion, gun control, civil rights, environmentalism. I could go on. Why is it that democrats are known to be more symapthetic to the environment? Republicans more sensitive to business? Democrats more sensitive to women having a right to choose? Republicans more sensitive to our right to own a gun?

What do these issues in and of themselves have to do with the core of their sponsoring parties ideology? Here's my theory: Not much at all, and the fact that they are is a symptom (or maybe a cause) of a very serious problem.

Almost everyone in our country considers themselves either a liberal or a democrat. And to most of these people, actions of the other party usually seem questionable, and those of their own party usually seem right. What I am proposing here, is that for the vast majority of people who would affiliate themselves with one of these parties, is that they are basically told what to think (by their party) about issues that have nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Do you believe in affirmative action because you've thouht the issue through thoroughly and wholeheartedly? Or do you believe what you believe because you affiliate yourself with a political party and they already had the view you should have ready for you?

The truth of the matter lies between the positions of the two parties. Neither side is all the way right. The answer is in between. Whenever an issue gets pressed to the forefront, it seems, both sides will have an opposite stance on it, that may or may not have anything to do at all with the ideology.

What then becomes dangerous about this, is how people who would otherwise critically think for themselves, become illogical and stupid. Things pressed by conservatives, to a liberal, are already colored in a negative light, not beacuse of what is at stake, but simply because it's being pushed by conservatives and thus liberals can't agree.

So that is why both sides are really stupid. I see good idea's get shot down here all the time, and bad one's get applauded, for absolutely no reason besides the fact that whatever party it is you affiliate yourself with told you to think that, or the idea originated from the other party.

Does anyone see what the hell I'm getting at?!?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1237574 - 01/21/03 03:43 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

It's all about special interests. Democrats are bought by a certain group of special interests and Republicans are bought by another (IMO more scary) group.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (01/21/03 03:44 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1237592 - 01/21/03 03:49 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Key word there being "bought."

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1237601 - 01/21/03 03:51 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly! That's why the Democrats are against school vouchers. Cuz they get money from the Public School Boards.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1237624 - 01/21/03 03:56 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I see what you're getting at but the way I see it is Liberals are based on feeling and they have to appeal to the lower class citizens by welfare and old folks by more social security and Conservative are based on thinking. There's not a whole bunch of genious left(unless you count sneakiness) but a majority of the right are more of an intellectual type.

Quote:

The answer is in between.


Clinton did a good job posing as a centuralist and he got elected, but he was still liberal as can be.

I hate politics but it is involved with my life so I choose the party that has the least bullshit and that's the right or Republicans,
Dilauded

Edited by Dilauded (01/21/03 04:07 PM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1237645 - 01/21/03 04:15 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I disagree with your idea that conservatives are more intellectual. Karl Marx was certainly an intellectual, as were Che Guevara and George Orwell(a socialist). Most intellectuals, whether liberal or conservative, don't seem to belong to either of the mainstream parties. Liberal intellectuals tend to be Communist or Socialist, while conservative intellectuals tend to be Libertarian.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1237653 - 01/21/03 04:18 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

but my main point was that the left Socialist Communist are based on feeling good rather than the right is more based on hard work.

Socialism and Communism SOUND GOOD that's it. Can you name a successful socialist/communist economy????

"Communism/Socialism destroys individualism" does that mean anything to you?
Dilauded

Edited by Dilauded (01/21/03 04:21 PM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1237658 - 01/21/03 04:20 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Communism and Socialism are based on the idea that all people should be taken care of by the government, while conservatives believe everyone should have to fend for themselves.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1237662 - 01/21/03 04:22 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Aren't we all big and grown up and old enough to wipe our own asses?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1237664 - 01/21/03 04:23 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Not everyone, no. Some people are mentally retarded. Some people have debilitating addictions they can't seem to quit. Some people are single mothers who can't balance a job with raising a kid. Some people can't make ends meet on minimum wage.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1237669 - 01/21/03 04:26 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

heh.

Man, I couldnt agree more. I was actually writing up a post to start a thread on this very same topic.

Its almost like a nationalist state of mind. "My country (party in this instance) is my home, so im going to stand against whatever yours says because wre better and you dont have any good ideas."
Thats an attitude im seeing a lot of these days. Its stupidity no matter how you slice it.

Maybe you guys should come up with a whole bunch of other political parties that arent so polarized?? Maybe then we could actually get somewhere.


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."

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Anonymous

Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1237685 - 01/21/03 04:31 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Liberals are based on feeling.......... and Conservative are based on thinking.



My instinct was almost to jump all over you for that one, but in a sense I honestly see exactly where you are coming from so I won't.  I'm not saying you're totally right, just that I can see exactly why you would say that.

However, if that was what you drew from my post you definitely did not see what I was getting at.  Actually, I think I did a rather poor job at articulating what I was trying to say.  As far as what I actually wrote, Silversoul, you answered it perfectly: special interests.

The point I was getting at was obviously lost due to the way I wrote that passage though.  Back to the drawing board. :grin:

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Anonymous

Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1237692 - 01/21/03 04:34 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I guess for one, I'll put it out there that a parliament system seems like a much better way to do things than a polarized two-party system. Maybe now people will see what I was trying to say. I'll write up a new thread tomorrow. I suppose there is still some discussion to be had in here though.

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1237698 - 01/21/03 04:34 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

The retarded are cared for already. Welfare is fine where it is for those mothers with a kid. Minimum wage is meant to be the starting point of having a job. It gives you something to work up to. Government's place isn't in our lives. And with all the stuff you mentioned = more taxes. Less jobs with more taxes, so that guy who can't make it with minimum wage isn't gonna have a job at all. The boss would like to have another employee but thanks to those high taxes he won't get one and economic dissent begins. Its all common sense. I'm strong enough to support myself, and govt can give a little help which it already does not an overly excessive amt like your left views stand by. There's not much of that thing called Freedom of Speech in Communism.

Dilauded

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1237718 - 01/21/03 04:40 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I wasn't necessarily saying that we need more welfare or anything. I was just explaining the need for welfare and why liberals support it. Also, unfair business practices such as insider trading can also cause unemployment and are bad for the economy. Just look at Enron.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (01/21/03 04:41 PM)

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1237789 - 01/21/03 05:00 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Enron was related to the Clinton Administration.

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Anonymous

Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1237829 - 01/21/03 05:14 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Really? I thought it was Cheney in bed with Enron.

Funny how it was such a huge deal about those papers getting released that the Bush Administration had to fight so hard to keep what was in them a secret.

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1237844 - 01/21/03 05:20 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I believe it was Clinton's guy responsible for reporting the audits. Therefore he reported false reports and when they left, here comes these problems.

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Anonymous

Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1237870 - 01/21/03 05:29 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

You can try to blame Clinton as much as you want. It lacks any basis. Back it up with a link. Here's mine.

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1237956 - 01/21/03 06:11 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

And here's mine

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1237967 - 01/21/03 06:16 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

oh and this one too Right Here

I rest my case,
Dilauded

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1238082 - 01/21/03 08:27 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And here's mine.
Oh, and this one too Right Here.
I rest my case


Dude, did you even read those articles???  The first one is all about how the press lied about Clinton's connections with Enron just to make him look bad, and the second one starts off by apologizing for lying about the same thing in a previous article!  The articles you posted completely support Fiend's case.

The second article does go on to say "the bad news for those who still worship Mr. Clinton is that Enron not only donated $100,000 to Clinton's 1993 inauguration but, according to the records, also added an additional $25,000 to the Clinton 1993 celebrations."

What the 2nd article fails to mention (I wonder why) is that Enron contributed a LOT more to the Republican party than the Democratic party, as evidenced by this link:

http://www.opensecrets.org/alerts/v6/enron_totals.asp

Don't you hate when people get caught trying to fudge the facts?

Your case has been unrested!  :wink:     


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1238107 - 01/21/03 08:51 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Dude, Go Blue is right, the first article explains how the rumor that Ken Lay speant the night in the Lincoln bedroom as Clinton's guest spread from the Drudge Report to the Chicago Tribune (i think) to Fox News to the Bush election staff to the Washington post.

It then went on to explain how it was a false rumor that spread by projection rather than fact.

To tell you the truth, it sounds like a liberal publication.

And the second was like, "Ok, ok, so we can't hate Clinton for having Ken Lay as a guest, but......we can hate him for this, this, and this" It does have some suspicious aspects, but it doesn't explain about faulty finiancial reporting.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Anonymous

Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1238293 - 01/22/03 01:16 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH.

I don't even know what to say, lol.

You rest your case, huh?

Try reading the articles before you post them next time.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1238403 - 01/22/03 02:30 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"but my main point was that the left Socialist Communist are based on feeling good rather than the right is more based on hard work."

There are good thinkers on both sides. There are many intellectuals on the left, you've obviously never talked to many left leaning people.

Just because less of them wear suits doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.

The left is based on the idea that all of society should be treated fairly, and the right believes that the strongest should survive.

I've seen both sides argued intelligently here.

"Can you name a successful socialist/communist economy???? "

Denmark, Canada, Holland, etc...


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1239364 - 01/22/03 09:22 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I'll stand by my side and you can stick to yours.

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1239468 - 01/22/03 09:57 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Dil, (hehehe  :grin:) 
Now I'll be honest, I like you, I think that you are a pretty intelligent person, so I don't want to come across as a dick,  but did you read the links that you posted, because I don't see how they support your argument. 


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Skikid16]
    #1239776 - 01/22/03 11:28 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

There must be something I'm missing. Someone shed some light.

From the Newsmax link

I must admit to an error in my most recent article on the Enron scandal. Lovers of ex-President Bill Clinton will be overjoyed to find that Enron's top exec Ken Lay did not stay at the White House 11 times.

However, the bad news for those who still worship Mr. Clinton is that Enron not only donated $100,000 to Clinton's 1993 inauguration but, according to the records, also added an additional $25,000 to the Clinton 1993 celebrations.

The documented evidence shows that Enron did make it into the Clinton White House by special invitation. Senior Vice President Terrance H. Thorn had coffee with Bill Clinton on March 5, 1996.

Many of the other attendees of the Clinton White House coffee sessions also make up a long list of convicted criminals, arms dealers and bagmen for illegal DNC contributions.

For example, Wang Jun had coffee with Clinton in 1996. Wang is also the president of Poly Technologies, the largest arms trading firm owned by the People's Liberation Army. Poly Tech is currently banned from doing business in the United States after several of its top executives conspired to smuggle machine guns into the U.S. for sale to a major drug dealer ? who later turned out to be a Customs agent posing as a gangster.

Charlie "Yah Lin" Trie, who was later convicted of illegally passing hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Clinton/Gore re-election campaign, brought Wang into the White House. Trie also gave an additional $645,000 to the Democratic National Committee, and most of this money was from illegal foreign sources.



Dilauded

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1240413 - 01/22/03 03:08 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

the bad news for those who still worship Mr. Clinton is that Enron not only donated $100,000 to Clinton's 1993 inauguration but, according to the records, also added an additional $25,000 to the Clinton 1993 celebrations.

Like the link I posted above shows, a LOT more was given to the Republican party, meaning Enron favored the Republicans for some mysterious reason.

The documented evidence shows that Enron did make it into the Clinton White House by special invitation. Senior Vice President Terrance H. Thorn had coffee with Bill Clinton on March 5, 1996.

This paragraph and the rest say Clinton had coffee with certain people.  Ooh, he must be guilty of something!  :wink: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phluck]
    #1240827 - 01/22/03 05:40 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Phluck writes:

The left is based on the idea that all of society should be treated fairly, and the right believes that the strongest should survive.

Hmmm. A little bias there, I must point out. What is more accurate is to say that the left believe the successful should be forced to give their money to the unsuccessful, and the right believe that individuals are responsible for their own lives.

Denmark, Canada, Holland, etc...

Those countries aren't really what I would define as Socialist. Which industries does the Canadian government own? They are more "interventionist" (in the sense of the government meddling in the economy) than the US is today, but hardly Socialist.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1240859 - 01/22/03 05:50 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Everyone has healthcare, and welfare is WAY more widespread. That's pretty socialist.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1240940 - 01/22/03 06:18 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hmmm. A little bias there, I must point out. What is more accurate is to say that the left believe the successful should be forced to give their money to the unsuccessful, and the right believe that individuals are responsible for their own lives.


That sounds a little bias too.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1241003 - 01/22/03 06:52 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I think your argument has more to do with party affiliation, than one being liberal or conservative. Liberal or concervative really has to do with the way one thinks rather than any sort of party affiliation. However, at this point in time, liberal usually refer to the Democratic party, and conservative referes to the Republican party.

Defining one's self as strictly Democratic or Republican is silly, IMHO. Though I am pretty middle of the road, I usually vote for members of the Democratic party because the ideals which they represent best represent my ideals. Furthermore, the ideals which I believe in strongly, the Democratic party usually represents, and the Republicans oppose. This is not to say that I have never voted Republican, I have. Durring elections I never vote strictly on the basis of party. However, as I said, I generally feel that the Democratic party best represents what I believe in, and I choose to affiliate myself with them, for the time being. Looking through history, the parties have stood for different issues. Fifty years from now the Republican party may be affiliated with the left, and the Dems with the right. Or  hell, maybe neither of them will exist.  :grin:

Edit: fixed some spelling  :tongue:


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

Edited by I_Fart_Blue (01/22/03 06:54 PM)

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1241031 - 01/22/03 07:07 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"the left believe the successful should be forced to give their money to the unsuccessful, and the right believe that individuals are responsible for their own lives."

That sounds a little biased too.

I agree. That's totally biased, and complete nonsense.

It's interesting how conservatives and liberals never seem to have a clue what the other side thinks.

For example, a liberal would see homeless retarded person in the street and think "that's not right, someone should help this person", and so he would say "we should help the less fortunate". Then a conservative would come back and say "you just want a free handout".

Similarly a conservative would know someone who is milking the welfare system and doesn't feel like working since he is comfortably surviving, so they would want stricter welfare laws to ensure no capable person gets a free ride. He would say "we need tougher welfare laws". And the liberal would say "you just don't care about other people".

I don't know why this type of misunderstanding always happens. When I talk to my conservative friends, I'm amazed by how much we actually agree on things once we start talking.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1241048 - 01/22/03 07:11 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

That sounds a little bias too.

It all depends whose ox is gored, doesn't it?

I submit that my version is at least ACCURATE. The Left DO believe that the successful have no inherent right to their own property; the only things the successful are allowed to keep are what the Collective ("the Collective" in this context meaning the majority of those who bother to vote) ALLOWS them to keep. Do you dispute the accuracy of this statement?

In contrast, the right DO believe that individuals are responsible for their own lives; that no one has an inherent right to force others to support them. Do you dispute the accuracy of this statement?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241058 - 01/22/03 07:15 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I do not dispute the accuracy of your statement, nor do I dispute the accuracy of Phluck's statement. They are both pretty much saying the same thing, only showing a different bias.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241080 - 01/22/03 07:22 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

You probably posted your reply before you read my post.

Yes, I agree with accuracy of your statement about conservatives.

No, I disagree with accuracy of your statement about liberals.

I don't believe the Government has any right to my personal property. I'm furious that the Government believes it can take my car away if I get busted with a little pot in it. My property is my property. Period. What makes you say liberals believe that the successful have no inherent right to their own property? (Here's where we'll find out why there is a misunderstanding).


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241090 - 01/22/03 07:26 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

GoBlue! writes:

For example, a liberal would see homeless retarded person in the street and think "that's not right, someone should help this person", and so he would say "we should help the less fortunate".

I have no problem whatsoever with someone PERSUADING me to help the less fortunate. If that's all that Liberals did, I wouldn't beef. But that's NOT all that Liberals do. Liberals enact legislation to FORCE me to spend a large portion of my life working for what THEY believe is a "good cause". And it's not just ONE "good cause", either, it's literally hundreds of "good causes".

Then a conservative would come back and say "you just want a free handout".

I have no problem with anyone wanting a free handout. I live in the Dominican Republic -- have been since 1988. There's a lot of people here with not a lot of money. There isn't a week goes by that I don't give out handouts -- VOLUNTARILY. I get to choose the recipient of my effort, and the amount of effort that each recipient gets from me. Every peso goes directly to that recipient, with no government rakeoff.

Similarly a conservative would know someone who is milking the welfare system and doesn't feel like working since he is comfortably surviving, so they would want stricter welfare laws to ensure no capable person gets a free ride.

I wouldn't define someone like that a conservative. Or, if HE fits the definition of "conservative", then I certainly don't.

I don't know why this type of misunderstanding always happens.

Two main reasons:

1) The terms "Liberal" and "Conservative" have been distorted to the point where they no longer accurately reflect a person's political philosophy.

2) Few people bother to check their underlying principles.

pinky



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Anonymous

Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241124 - 01/22/03 07:39 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

For example, a liberal would see homeless retarded person in the street and think "that's not right, someone should help this person", and so he would say "we should help the less fortunate". Then a conservative would come back and say "you just want a free handout".

Similarly a conservative would know someone who is milking the welfare system and doesn't feel like working since he is comfortably surviving, so they would want stricter welfare laws to ensure no capable person gets a free ride. He would say "we need tougher welfare laws". And the liberal would say "you just don't care about other people"



Excellent posting GoBlue. I totally agree.

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Anonymous

Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1241133 - 01/22/03 07:43 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I think though, and any conservative minded person please feel free to disagree:

Your typical liberal wouldn't mind if a few lazy jerks got a free ride as long as 10 people who genuinely needed help got it.
Your typical conservative wouldn't mind if a few people in genuine need went hungry, as long as no lazy bums were getting free lunch.

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1241145 - 01/22/03 07:46 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks Fiend. I'm amazed at how much conservatives and liberals actually agree with one another once they get to talking. For example, I don't think there's a liberal on these boards that agrees with pink's statement that "the successful have no inherent right to their own property".


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1241151 - 01/22/03 07:48 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Your typical liberal wouldn't mind if a few lazy jerks got a free ride as long as 10 people who genuinely needed help got it.
Your typical conservative wouldn't mind if a few people in genuine need went hungry, as long as no lazy bums were getting free lunch.


I agree with your statement about liberals. I would guess that conservatives will argue with you on your second point. We'll see (I think conservatives would say they're not that heartless - if I'm right, this is exactly the type of misunderstanding I was talking about)


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (01/22/03 08:01 PM)

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241209 - 01/22/03 08:13 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

GoBlue writes:

I don't think there's a liberal on these boards that agrees with pink's statement that "the successful have no inherent right to their own property".

Then you're mistaken. Plenty of Liberals and Lefties on this board express (repeatedly) exactly that point of view. Most are careful never to phrase it in exactly those words, but there is no doubt that is exactly what underlying principle they believe in: the successful have no right to what's theirs because and ONLY because they ARE successful. Their only crime is not being needy. Conversely, the needy have EVERY right to the property of others, not because they have done anything to earn it, but simply because they are unable (or in some cases unwilling) to support themselves.

Just where do you think the money comes from to fund welfare and other "social programs" ostensibly enacted to assist the unfortunate? Does it not come from taxes? Do the successful pay far more in taxes (Hint: IRS figures show that 96% of America's income taxes are collected from the wealthiest 50% of Americans) than the unfortunate? Are taxes to fund social programs donations or are they extorted from individuals through the threat of force?

This is why I said that many people don't examine underlying principles. The underlying principle of government-mandated "social programs" is not "helping others", because "helping" is VOLUNTARY. The underlying principle is that people have no inherent RIGHT to keep what is theirs if enough other people decide that their stuff can be put to "better use" in the hands of others, be it those in charge of helping the poor or those in charge of helping the disabled or the mentally challenged or the homeless or the children in Ethiopia.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (01/22/03 08:15 PM)

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241218 - 01/22/03 08:16 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

It all goes back to Independence Day. A reason that America wanted to escape Britain b/c of the overly taxation w/out representation and that it shouldn't take orders from someone an ocean away. The Monarchy is like a dictatorship and Communism in a way.

My point being, there's Federalists and there Anti-Federalists. Feds wanted more constitution and Anti wanted less constitution. More government, less government. Democrats, Republicans. Democrats need the people to be dependant on the way they run government in order to be successful. Giving more money to the poor and favoring the minorities. If you keep giving these poor people more and more money then why should they work if the government is giving them such a helping hand. All while the Republicans or the owners of businesses who've worked their ass off for YEARS to have to pay outrageous taxes to support none other than the poor. Dems want more social security and more welfare... WHAT THE FUCK, ISN'T IT HIGH ENOUGH? Does anybody see what I mean by Democrat's success is based on how much the people rely on the government?

To me, the group Liberal/Democrat call it what you claim are both just nicer ways of saying Communist/Socialism. I heard Clinton talk, a couple months ago, about how they're going to be called Progressives and will take on America in a progressive way. Hmmm, Progressives... Sounds like a nicer name than Democrat. And even better that Clinton, the most trust-worth guy on Earth, is giving the speech. But now with the new Democratic nominees running for President, I don't see anyone running under Progressive. But Democrats are sneaky, I don't even know what to believe when I hear one talk. And to hear a debate with a Dem and a Rep, the Dem sounds like a baby who just throws mud when he/she can't think of anything relevant to say.

Power,
Dilauded

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241261 - 01/22/03 08:35 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"Most are careful never to phrase it in exactly those words, but there is no doubt that is exactly what underlying principle they believe in"

There's the misunderstanding again.

I can (and will) make an argument that conservatives (at least in America) are always trying to beef up military spending.  Just where do you think the money comes from to fund defense and other "security" programs ostensibly enacted to assist the big corporations?  Does it not come from our taxes?

The underlying principle is that people have no inherent RIGHT to keep what is theirs if enough other people decide that their stuff can be put to "better use" in the hands of others, be it those in charge of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines.  :wink: 


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241294 - 01/22/03 08:52 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

GoBlue writes:

Just where do you think the money comes from to fund defense and other "security" programs ostensibly enacted to assist the big corporations? Does it not come from our taxes?

Three points:

1) Liberals ALSO believe it is correct for the government to protect its citizens from those who would initiate force or fraud against them. I know of no Liberal who seriously believes the US should disband its miltary, fire all its police, close all courtrooms and demolish all prisons.

2) Without such impartial organs of government available to all (cops, courts, military), EVERYONE'S property is vulnerable to seizure by the first thug or gang of thugs who happens by to seize it. It's tough to give to charity when all your stuff has been stolen either by the Mob or by a foreign invader.

3) If the functions of government were restricted to those explicitly allowed by the Constitution, taxes would be a small fraction of what they are today. Some argue that it is not impossible to fund such levels of government through non-coercive means (but that is enough of a tangent that it should be addressed in a separate thread).

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1241309 - 01/22/03 09:08 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Your typical liberal wouldn't mind if a few lazy jerks got a free ride as long as 10 people who genuinely needed help got it.
Your typical conservative wouldn't mind if a few people in genuine need went hungry, as long as no lazy bums were getting free lunch.


I couldn't have said it better myself.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1241310 - 01/22/03 09:10 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

A reason that America wanted to escape Britain b/c of the overly taxation w/out representation


Then the rich have nothing to complain about, because they are represented in the political leadership far more than the marginalized poor.
Quote:

If you keep giving these poor people more and more money then why should they work if the government is giving them such a helping hand.


Actually, in most cases welfare is only a temporary circumstance for people trying to get back on their feet. Most people do not stay on welfare indefinitely.
Quote:

To me, the group Liberal/Democrat call it what you claim are both just nicer ways of saying Communist/Socialism.


To some extent, yes, but Communism/Socialism are more extremes of liberalism. I consider myself to be either an extreme liberal or a moderate Socialist, and frankly, I don't consider that word to have any negative connotation. Communism shouldn't necessarily have a negative connotation either, since Karl Marx was certainly an intelligent, thoughtful man, although I personally happen to disagree with many of his ideas, and do not believe Communism could work in the real world.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (01/22/03 09:19 PM)

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241341 - 01/22/03 09:43 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I think it's also fair to say that many conservatives are also in support of limited social programs to assist the retarded, handicapped, single mothers with infants, etc as well.  These programs would also help prevent people from stealing in order to survive.  Here's what's more important.  The following chart shows a history of the Federal deficit:



This chart shows that the first major budget defecit occured under Ford in 1974 (Republican).  Then it went back down again in 1976 under Carter (Democrat).  Then it went back up in a major way in 1980 under Reagan (Republican).  It went up to its furthest under Bush (Republican).  Finally, there was a huge budget surplus beginning in 1997 under Clinton (Democrat). 

What's up with republicans always spending more than they have?  Because of Republicans, I'm now paying taxes to cover $42 billion a year in interest on debt that Republicans have created.  And you have the nerve to say Republicans are against taxes???  :smirk:

Edit:  If there's any Republicans who think Democrats like paying taxes, then that's yet another stupid misunderstanding.  We simply believe that taxes should match spending.  And for the record, Democrats don't spend any more than Republicans.  That's a total myth.  Spending has increased fairly linearly through time, with Clinton being the one exception.  He significantly decreased Government spending, and he was a DEMOCRAT.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (01/22/03 10:25 PM)

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1241400 - 01/22/03 11:02 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Then the rich have nothing to complain about, because they are represented in the political leadership far more than the marginalized poor.


There's the rich and the poor make the rich. Can't have one without the other, its part of life.

Quote:

Actually, in most cases welfare is only a temporary circumstance for people trying to get back on their feet. Most people do not stay on welfare indefinitely.



Correct, but welfare doesn't need to be funded so much.

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241433 - 01/23/03 12:06 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting chart. However, we aren't talking of Democrats and Republicans, we are talking of Liberals and Conservatives. Few American Republican politicians are Conservatives, they're just less liberal than the Democrats. But, even if we ARE talking of Democrats and Republicans, to blame a president for deficits is naive, whether the president is Republican or Democrat. The budget is decided by congress, not by the executive office. Try matching that chart to the composition of the House and Senate if you want a more accurate picture.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241443 - 01/23/03 12:19 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I would definitely argue that most Republicans are conservative.

And the budget is proposed by the president. Sure, Congress has to approve it, but the president's proposal pretty much dictates the budgeting effort.


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241454 - 01/23/03 12:34 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I would definitely argue that most Republicans are conservative.

It depends on what one considers "conservative", doesn't it? The Republicans of today would be considered flaming pinkos by the Republicans of the Eisenhower era.

Sure, Congress has to approve it, but the president's proposal pretty much dictates the budgeting effort.

Sorry, I was unclear. There is more to a deficit than just a budget. Congress institutes new programs and modifies old ones year round, budget or no budget. And if you think that a Democratic Congress rubber stamps a Republican presidential budget unchanged (or vice versa) you are mistaken.

Another big reason for the surplus under Clinton was due to the fact that the Congress was Republican dominated, and shot down several proposals of the Clintonites which would have wiped out the surplus and then some. What do you think Hillary's health plan would have cost?

Secondly, Clinton had the good luck of dealing with basically the first eight years after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War. A large part of the surplus was due to his gutting of the military and the intelligence community.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241466 - 01/23/03 12:53 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Personally I think you underestimate the power of the president. But since we probably won't agree on that, I still believe that Democrats try to match taxes with spending, while Republicans attempt to cut taxes below the spending levels, driving us into more debt (and ultimately forcing us to pay more taxes as interest on that debt).


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241488 - 01/23/03 01:18 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

And here's a very important point. Whether the President is Republican or Democrat, and whether the Congress is Republican or Democrat, that doesn't seem to matter with respect to overall spending. Spending has been increasing very linearly over time, and with the exception of Bill Clinton's presidency, there have been no significant deviations from this trend, which implies that no matter who you want to credit (blame) for the budget, both parties ultimate end up spending essentially the same amount.


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241491 - 01/23/03 01:23 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I still believe that Democrats try to match taxes with spending, while Republicans attempt to cut taxes below the spending levels, driving us into more debt...

Which is exactly why I said forget about Democrats and Republicans and concentrate on Liberals and Conservatives, which is, after all, the title of the thread. My motive for entering this thread was to offer a more accurate characterization of Liberals and Conservatives than the one Phluck offered.

There are conservatives in this forum who have recently admitted to occasionally voting for Democrats, and liberals who have occasionally voted Republican (although less often). But to a true Conservative, American Republican politicians are far from conservative. I presume that to a true Liberal, American Democrat politicians are far from liberal.

I still say it is accurate to say that Liberals believe the ends (giving stuff to the unfortunate) justify the means (taking the stuff to be given from peaceful individuals) while Conservatives believe that the ends DO NOT justify the means.

pinky


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241500 - 01/23/03 01:28 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

And here's a very important point. Whether the President is Republican or Democrat, and whether the Congress is Republican or Democrat, that doesn't seem to matter with respect to overall spending.

Correct. And where is most of that increase in spending going? If it's not going towards the legitimate function of government (the protection of the people through cops, courts, and military), then I as a Conservative oppose it, whether an "improved" government "service" is tabled in Congress by a Democrat or a Republican.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241514 - 01/23/03 01:44 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, I guess if most Republicans aren't very conservative, and most Democrats aren't very liberal, which I believe is your argument, then I guess I'll agree with you. I've always considered a liberal to be a Democrat and a conservative to be a Republican, but you're probably right in saying most politicians are somewhere in between.


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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1242778 - 01/23/03 10:56 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I think it's also fair to say that many conservatives are also in support of limited social programs to assist the retarded, handicapped, single mothers with infants, etc as well. These programs would also help prevent people from stealing in order to survive. Here's what's more important. The following chart shows a history of the Federal deficit:





There's already enough money in programs to help the handicapped, single mothers, and what have you not. They get enough to be comfortable where they are. People will steal no matter what. I know a kid whose dad is a rich as fuck and the kid steals anything he likes. This kleptomania will never stop, so what if you give em more to support them, they'll still steal. The Republicans make it so you're have a better chance of getting a job and have more of your paycheck. Isn't that giving more money? You don't need rediculously high taxes to fund these things that much. That's what private organizations are for like the make a dream come true or Unicef and charities. And the deficit, the Republican way of reducing taxes won't work immediately unlike taxing 39% of your income like Clinton did. It'll take time, with less taxes there's more jobs and with more jobs there's more money being circulated and with that more money being circulated and more jobs there will be more taxes collected. Its all a matter of time. Taxes are an obstacle in the economy and the less taxes there are then the easier it will be for more money to be made. Does this make sense to you?


This is what I think b/c of first hand experience and common sense,
Dilauded

Edited by Dilauded (01/23/03 11:04 AM)

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1242795 - 01/23/03 11:02 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

A large part of the surplus was due to his gutting of the military and the intelligence community.



Shit that that pisses me off. Its because of this that a Chinese spy got the secrets for a nuke. That gutting closed America's eyes and made us vulnerable and weak as far as knowing our country and other countries.

Fuck Clinton,
Dilauded

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1243779 - 01/23/03 04:23 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

libertarian....all i have to say.


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1243834 - 01/23/03 04:45 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"Taxes are an obstacle in the economy and the less taxes there are then the easier it will be for more money to be made. Does this make sense to you?"

That's exactly my point. Why is Bush increasing the defecit, thereby increasing the amount of taxes I'll have to pay for the rest of my life? You can't increase the deficit without increasing the future tax burden. Does this make sense to you?


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1243853 - 01/23/03 04:51 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"Its because of this that a Chinese spy got the secrets for a nuke. That gutting closed America's eyes and made us vulnerable and weak as far as knowing our country and other countries."

I don't see how reduced intelligence has anything to do with the Chinese getting secrets. Besides, China became a nuclear power in 1964.


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1243857 - 01/23/03 04:53 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

libertarian....all i have to say. 

I'm with you on that.  I'm a card carrying member.  :grin: 


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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1243893 - 01/23/03 05:03 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why is Bush increasing the defecit, thereby increasing the amount of taxes I'll have to pay for the rest of my life? You can't increase the deficit without increasing the future tax burden. Does this make sense to you?


He increases it b/c he must fund shit like Homeland. But you didn't hear all of what I said. This tax cut will take a couple years to actually work. As far as I know, this deficit plays little to nothing a role in my everyday life. Maybe it could decrease the worth of the dollar. But you'll get more money and with the more jobs from the tax break there will be more... I'm just repeating myself. I understand where you're coming from, Clinton had his way of handling it, and now Bush is doing it his way. All I can do is see how well it works. The way it looks to my eyes is that it will take a little longer without the aggravation of the loss of a hard earned paycheck. But if anything its better than having half your paycheck taken away.

my opinion,
Dilauded

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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1243902 - 01/23/03 05:05 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I'm with you on that. I'm a card carrying member.

You express some pretty non-Libertarian points of view for a professed Libertarian, my friend. Anyone can CALL themselves a Libertarian.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (01/23/03 05:06 PM)

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1243914 - 01/23/03 05:09 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

You express some pretty non-Libertarian points of view for a professed Libertarian, my friend. Anyone can CALL themselves a Libertarian.

I never realized support of the Republican party was a requirement.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1243940 - 01/23/03 05:19 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why is Bush increasing the defecit, thereby increasing the amount of taxes I'll have to pay for the rest of my life? You can't increase the deficit without increasing the future tax burden.


Why can't more people grasp this concept?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Evolving]
    #1243993 - 01/23/03 05:41 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Are you saying higher taxes is the answer?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1244015 - 01/23/03 05:50 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

GoBlue! writes:

I never realized support of the Republican party was a requirement.

It's not. Republicans are (for the most part) not Libertarians. But neither are Democrats or Liberals. Perhaps I was misinterpreting your statements:

"If there's any Republicans who think Democrats like paying taxes, then that's yet another stupid misunderstanding. We simply believe that taxes should match spending." I interpreted that your use of "we" in this context meant you considered yourself a Democrat.

and

I don't know why this type of misunderstanding always happens. When I talk to my conservative friends, I'm amazed by how much we actually agree on things once we start talking. I interpreted that to mean you were a liberal.

and

I think it's also fair to say that many conservatives are also in support of limited social programs to assist the retarded, handicapped, single mothers with infants, etc as well. I interpreted that to mean you are in favor of social programs.

I have yet to meet a Libertarian who would make any one of the three above statements, let alone all three. However, it is possible you merely mis-spoke yourself, or it is possible that I misinterpreted. But I can only draw conclusions by what you actually write here; I am not clairvoyant. Maybe you are not really a liberal Democrat in favor of social programs, but only give that impression by accident. Here's your chance to correct any false impressions you may have inadvertently created.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Evolving]
    #1244027 - 01/23/03 05:54 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks Evolving. I don't think Delauded gets it.

Delauded, I understand that spending is up because of shit like Homeland. But if you increase spending you must increase taxes to cover the increased spending. You can either do it now, or you can do it later. But if you do it later you pay interest, and you also reduce the amount of money you have available in the future. We don't know what spending needs are in the future, so I would rather do it now. Like you, I hate paying taxes. But I realize it is necessary for things like defense, homeland, etc...


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1244057 - 01/23/03 06:06 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Good points pink.  My apologies - please let me clarify. 

I am officially Libertarian.  However, I tend to vote Democrat, since Libertarians don't yet have enough support to win elections.  That's why I often just call myself Democrat.

I have always considered myself liberal.  But your definition of liberal appears to be Rush Limbaugh's definition, which is a definition that very few liberals actually meet (as discussed above).

As far as support for social programs goes, Libertarians aren't opposed to this.  We simply believe it should be funded privately and voluntarily.  But until a significant portion of the population subscribes to this thought, I think the Government should take care of basic needs for the time being.

Hope this clears things up.  Thanks for pointing out the apparent discrepancies.  :smirk: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1244072 - 01/23/03 06:12 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Are you saying higher taxes is the answer?


Not at all. Governments, like their subjects who are saddled with the burden of supporting them, must learn to live within their means. Government debt is indeed taxation without representation, for it must be paid with the future earnings of those who are not yet allowed to vote and may not yet even be born. There is so much waste in government, so much inefficiency, that those who champion higher taxes or increased spending are unqualified to run a household, let alone vote on delivering their fellow citizens and descendants into economic bondage in the name of 'the good of society.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Evolving]
    #1244087 - 01/23/03 06:22 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"Government must learn to live within their means."

Well said, Evolving.    :smile: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1244090 - 01/23/03 06:23 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

ahhh, ok I understand what you n evolving are saying now.

Shit that sucks then.

OOoo another brain cell,
Dilauded

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1244093 - 01/23/03 06:26 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

GoBlue! writes:

But your definition of liberal appears to be Rush Limbaugh's definition, which is a definition that very few liberals actually meet (as discussed above).

Then Rush Limbaugh (for once) has actually described something accurately. Liberals tend to get flustered when people state things as they really ARE. I am reminded of this quote from Steve Kangas:

"It's often the case that when a critic uses an embarrassingly accurate term to describe what a wrong-doer is doing, the wrong-doer protests: 'Why don't you use my white-washed, conscience-soothing euphemism?' Such euphemisms, they claim, help promote 'civilized debate.' "

I ask you again, do Liberals believe that every citizen has the obligation to give up whatever portion of his property (earnings) the majority (the government in a Democratic country is elected by the majority, remember) decides he must, and --if he refuses to do so -- the government then has the RIGHT to seize it from him? Yes or no?

As far as support for social programs goes, Libertarians aren't opposed to this. We simply believe it should be funded privately and voluntarily.

Then it isn't a social PROGRAM, it is charity. I have stated already that I as a Libertarian have no problem with this concept. I take it that you object to any portion of your taxes being used for anything other than cops, courts, and military?

But until a significant portion of the population subscribes to this thought, I think the Government should take care of basic needs for the time being.

Why?

And so sorry, but I must point out, that belief is counter to one of the core tenets of Libertarianism, not to mention the Constitution of the United States.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1244148 - 01/23/03 06:52 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"Then Rush Limbaugh (for once) has actually described something accurately. Liberals tend to get flustered when people state things as they really ARE."

Ok, there is extreme liberalism, and extreme conservatism. But there is also a middle ground between the two. I would say that very few people are at the extremes. Since there is an infinite range in the middle, people are forced to label themselves "conservative" or "liberal". But that doesn't mean they fall at the extreme. I lean towards liberalism, so I call myself liberal. But I'm not Rush Limbaugh liberal.

"do Liberals believe that every citizen has the obligation to give up whatever portion of his property (earnings) the majority (the government in a Democratic country is elected by the majority, remember) decides he must, and --if he refuses to do so -- the government then has the RIGHT to seize it from him? Yes or no?

Probably yes. But I'd also argue most "conservatives" believe in some form of taxes as well. I'll guess you will probably say a "true" conservative doesn't believe this, and you may be right. But by this extreme definition, I'd say most "conservatives" aren't actually conservative. Most are somewhere in the middle leaning towards conservatism.

"so sorry, but I must point out, that belief is counter to one of the core tenets of Libertarianism"

I agree. But again, you are talking extreme Libertarianism. I lean towards libertarianism, but I'm not an extreme libertarian. Too bad there's not a way to label the infinite number of "in between" positions.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1244195 - 01/23/03 07:15 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

GoBlue! writes:

Ok, there is extreme liberalism, and extreme conservatism. But there is also a middle ground between the two.

What is the middle ground in taking money from people against their will to spend on programs they oppose? "Well, we'll only take 40% of your earnings this year instead of 50%, is that okay with you? No? Too bad."

It is an either-or situation here. Either it is correct IN PRINCIPLE to seize people's stuff or it isn't. The actual AMOUNT seized is a mere detail.

But I'd also argue most "conservatives" believe in some form of taxes as well.

To a Conservative the PRINCIPLE involved is what those taxes are used for.

But again, you are talking extreme Libertarianism.

No, I'm talking Libertarianism. There is NO Libertarian who believes tax dollars are to be spent on income redistribution. Not one. That is a Socialist principle, and the antithesis of Libertarianism. As a matter of fact, I'd have a pretty hard time coming up with an example more antithetical than that.

I lean towards libertarianism, but I'm not an extreme libertarian.

I don't say this to offend, but if you have any Libertarian leaning, it is pretty slight. From the answers to my questions, I would say you are a moderate Liberal, maybe even a right-Liberal.

I don't say this is necessarily a BAD thing, but to call yourself a Libertarian and then to post the opinions you do is to completely misrepresent what Libertarianism stands for.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1244302 - 01/23/03 08:07 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

What is the middle ground in taking money from people against their will to spend on programs they oppose?

If that were the only thing a conservative stood for, then you are correct, there would be no middle ground. But there are some conservatives who do believe in conservative principles, but also believe in taxes (I would say most conservatives fall into this category). Maybe they're not "true" conservatives, but then what the hell are they?

There is NO Libertarian who believes tax dollars are to be spent on income redistribution. Not one.

I would say when the country is Libertarian, then charity can and should take care of the needy. But until enough people believe in Libertarianism, I believe charity is insufficient for the time being.

"If you have any Libertarian leaning, it is pretty slight."

As you're aware, the Libertarian Party line is: "We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose." I believe in this principle more than that of any other party.

Perhaps I'm not an extreme Libertarian, but what should a person who is more Libertarian than anything else call himself??? Maybe moderate Liberal like you said, but I believe in the concept of very, very, few laws, which isn't entirely a liberal concept.

If you can only be a "hard core" party member, then every party has a much smaller membership than they think. The world isn't black and white.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (01/24/03 05:09 AM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1244448 - 01/23/03 09:40 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But if you increase spending you must increase taxes to cover the increased spending.


Bullshit. What should be done if spending increases are necessary for a program is reduce spending elsewhere. They take far more than they should now.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1244565 - 01/24/03 12:08 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I agree, but what if the other programs are necessary as well? Either way do you agree that deficit spending is poor monetary management?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1244573 - 01/24/03 12:19 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

He increases it b/c he must fund shit like Homeland.
Don't even get me started on the Homeland Security program. That sounds like something Hilter would have come up with.

This tax cut will take a couple years to actually work.
Why? How long?

As far as I know, this deficit plays little to nothing a role in my everyday life.
Then I would presume you know very little.

But you'll get more money and with the more jobs from the tax break there will be more.
Well we got tax breaks in 2000. How well did that work?

I understand where you're coming from, Clinton had his way of handling it
Creating jobs?

Bush is doing it his way. All I can do is see how well it works.
It really isn't his way. Trickle down, and supply side economics has been tried before. Just look how well it worked for Reagan, and Bush-41.

The way it looks to my eyes is that it will take a little longer without the aggravation of the loss of a hard earned paycheck. But if anything its better than having half your paycheck taken away.
Who has half their paycheck taken away? Name me one person.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1245028 - 01/24/03 05:05 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

But if you increase spending you must increase taxes to cover the increased spending.


Bullshit. What should be done if spending increases are necessary for a program is reduce spending elsewhere. They take far more than they should now.


I don't know why you're calling bullshit, since that's exactly what I've been saying. My point is that Bush is increasing spending and decreasing taxes, which is tremendously irresponsible. Either spending cuts need to be made, or taxes need to be increased. Neither is happening.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1245210 - 01/24/03 06:12 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

My point is that Bush is increasing spending and decreasing taxes, which is tremendously irresponsible. Either spending cuts need to be made, or taxes need to be increased. Neither is happening.


I believe that Bush has pushed for and received more spending increases than Clinton, so much for being a 'conservative.' The modern conservatives, are only against increased spending and increased debt when it is for programs which they oppose (the same could be said of the modern 'liberals').


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1245299 - 01/24/03 06:50 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"As far as I know, this deficit plays little to nothing a role in my everyday life."

I hope you don't me sharing some information to help put it in perspective. Ten percent of all tax dollars collected goes towards paying interest on the national debt. How much does that amount to exactly? That averages out to about $2,000 per taxpater per year. This is money that we must pay every year for the rest of our lives even if the Government doesn't spend a penny on anything whatsoever, unless the country decides to have a budget surplus, which is required to reduce and eventually eliminate the national debt. Even if we have no defecit, we will still have to pay $2,000 interest per taxpayer per year on the current debt forever unless/until a budget surplus pays it off. And a one year surplus isn't nearly enough to pay off the debt. The debt is so hight that iIt will require many, many years to pay off. It's 6.4 TRILLION dollars! That entire balance still needs to be paid off in addition to the annual interest payments.

Since it appears there will be another federal defecit under Bush, our national debt will increase even more, so we will actually be responsible for more than $2,000 per taxpayer per year for life. Ugh. As much I hate taxes, I'd be in favor of increasing taxes for a few years if and only if the purpose was to eliminate the national debt.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1245374 - 01/24/03 07:15 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Don't even get me started on the Homeland Security program. That sounds like something Hilter would have come up with.


What to collectively use all these organization's resources?

Quote:

Why? How long?


Not immediately.

Quote:

It really isn't his way. Trickle down, and supply side economics has been tried before. Just look how well it worked for Reagan, and Bush-41.



Reagan didn't have the World Trade attacked.

Quote:

I understand where you're coming from, Clinton had his way of handling it
Creating jobs?



You mean putting people out of jobs.
Quote:

Who has half their paycheck taken away? Name me one person.


I was referring to the Clinton Administration.

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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Evolving]
    #1245445 - 01/24/03 07:47 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Very true. However, Clinton was not handing out tax cuts while at the same time spending all that money.

Didn't Bush fire his economic advisor a few months ago?


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1245446 - 01/24/03 07:47 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

What to collectively use all these organization's resources?
Are you really that ignorant?

Not immediately
So how long, that is what I am asking? And why?

Reagan didn't have the World Trade attacked.
Having the WTC attacked has absolutely nothing to do with how an economic stimulous package will work. WTF are you talking about?

You mean putting people out of jobs.
Again, WTF are you talking about? Unemployment was pretty damn low under the Clinton administration. It isn't terribly high now, but Bush certainly hasn't created any new jobs. I heard the numbers for how many jobs were created per month under Clinton, as opposed to how many jobs that have been lost per month under Bush, I will have to do some searching.

I was referring to the Clinton Administration.
Again, name me one person that has had half of their paycheck taken out for federal taxes.

You really don't know much about anything do you? You managed to play politician with every question, and you did a pretty poor job at that. You were not able to answer a single question with any thought or relivance to the topic. You remind me a sheep, blindly following Bush without paying any attention to where you are going. One of these days that lemming is going to jump right off a cliff, hopefully taking the flock of Busheep with him.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1245487 - 01/24/03 08:05 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Busheep 

That is great, very clever.  :grin:


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1246022 - 01/24/03 12:06 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

GoBlue! writes:

But there are some conservatives who do believe in conservative principles, but also believe in taxes...

I repeat -- To a Conservative the PRINCIPLE involved is what those taxes are used for. If they are used for providing legitimate functions of government (cops, courts, military), no objection. If they are used for income redistribution, endowment of the arts, gifts to third world countries (whose rulers immediately deposit 90% of it in their personal bank accounts), etc., then they object.

But until enough people believe in Libertarianism, I believe charity is insufficient for the time being.

Thus justifying the seizure of peoples' property? So sorry, that is not Libertarian.

As you're aware, the Libertarian Party line is: "We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose."

Yes, I am aware of it. Are you?

I believe in this principle more than that of any other party.

But you have not yet fully grasped the principle in which you profess to believe. What do you think this means: all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose ?

If you believe that individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, does this not mean that they (not the majority) have the right to determine towards which goals their efforts are directed?

If you believe that individuals have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, does this not include the right to determine how much of their effort should be expended on strangers, and on which strangers it should be expended? What gives the majority the right to supercede their wishes?

If you can only be a "hard core" party member, then every party has a much smaller membership than they think.

There are flavors of Libertarians, true. Some believe there should be no use of public money on cops or courts -- they believe in the privatization of both. At the other end of the spectrum, some Libertarians believe it is okay to use public money for roads. Some even believe it is okay to use public money on education.

But NO Libertarian believes in any government income redistribution scheme. Not one. Just as no Communist believes in privately-held means of production.

I sympathize with your frustration at not finding a label which seems to accurately describe your political views, but "Libertarian" is definitely not such a label.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1246046 - 01/24/03 12:18 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If they are used for providing legitimate functions of government (cops, courts, military), no objection.


Here is where liberals and conservatives disagree. Liberals believe welfare and social programs ARE legitimate functions of government. Most of Western Europe certainly agrees with this. Conservatives, however, do not.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1246098 - 01/24/03 12:41 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

No, I tried ro give him credit too when I first got to the forum. After a few weeks I too realized he's a total moron.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1246507 - 01/24/03 03:13 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)


name me one person that has had half of their paycheck taken out for federal taxes.

I know someone who for every dollar he made, 60 cents were taken away.
Not all of it was federal tax though, it was everything combined(state tax, federal
tax, Social Security tax, local tax, etc..etc..).

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1246993 - 01/24/03 11:37 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Who has half their paycheck taken away? Name me one person.


Today? No-one, because Reagan got legislation passed to lower the tax rate to a 38% max. Before that, there were quite a few.

And even today, if you add in the payroll tax (FICA) I believe you'll find many do pay over 50%. Not 100% sure of the exact amount though.

I just went and looked.
38.6% - Top Fed Income Tax Rate
2.9% - Top FICA Medicare Rate
12.4% - Top FICA - OASDI Rate

That adds up to 53.9%. All of it Federal taxes on income.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/24/03 11:55 PM)

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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1248195 - 01/25/03 01:14 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"If they are used for providing legitimate functions of government (cops, courts, military), no objection."

I don't think there will ever be concensus of what "legitimate" functions of Government are.

"I sympathize with your frustration at not finding a label which seems to accurately describe your political views, but "Libertarian" is definitely not such a label."

The thing I like best about the Libertarian party is their tremendous support of individual freedoms - for people to live in "whatever manner they choose". They support the freedom to do shrooms in the privacy of your own home, to buy a hooker if you choose, etc... Basically, that there should be only a handful of laws to prevent theft, murder, etc.

When I register to vote, I am asked what party I belong to. If you don't want me to help strengthen the small size of the Libertarian party, what other party would you recommend that supports freedom to the level of the Libertarian party???

PS - I agree with Ben Franklin. He said something like "in life only two things are certain - death and taxes". Is there any country in the world that doesn't have taxes?


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1248676 - 01/25/03 04:25 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

GoBlue! writes:

I don't think there will ever be concensus of what "legitimate" functions of Government are.

As long as some people feel it is fine and dandy for governments to initiate force against their disarmed populace, there will never be consensus, no.

When I register to vote, I am asked what party I belong to. If you don't want me to help strengthen the small size of the Libertarian party, what other party would you recommend that supports freedom to the level of the Libertarian party???

If you want to vote for Libertarian candidates, do so. If you want to donate to their campaigns, do so. If you want to persuade others to read Libertarian literature, do so. But registering as a Libertarian on the voters list means nothing, and strengthens the Libertarian party in no way at all. And defending Democrats and income redistribution programs on a public forum while calling yourself a Libertarian does worse than nothing, it HARMS the Libertarian party.

Is there any country in the world that doesn't have taxes?

Is there any country in the world that is governed by Libertarians?

And -- for the third time -- the fundamental PRINCIPLE at stake here is what those taxes are used FOR. What part of that statement is unclear to you?

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1249056 - 01/25/03 08:00 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"As long as some people feel it is fine and dandy for governments to initiate force against their disarmed populace, there will never be consensus, no."

A better way to say that is that unless ALL Libertarians are against taxes of any sort, then there will never be consensus.

"If you want to donate to their campaigns, do so."

I have been making annual donations.

"defending Democrats and income redistribution programs on a public forum while calling yourself a Libertarian does worse than nothing, it HARMS the Libertarian party."

I went to the Libertarian Party website www.lp.org.  To the far right of the main page is a test called "Are you a Libertarian?  (World's Smallest Political Quiz)"  Here is how I scored:

"According to your answers, your political philosophy is libertarian.
The red dot on the chart shows where you fit on the political map.

Your Personal Self-Government Score is 100%.
Your Economic Self-Government Score is 80%."

Notice how my red dot is on the Liberal side of the chart, but it did not classify me as a Liberal.  You should let them know their test is flawed.  Also notice that my score was not a perfect 100%.

"for the third time -- the fundamental PRINCIPLE at stake here is what those taxes are used FOR. What part of that statement is unclear to you?"

The part that is unclear is how some Libertarians believe taxes are wrong in PRINCIPLE altogether, while others believe they are ok in PRINCIPLE for "legitimate" reasons, which haven't ever been agreed upon.  That's what's unclear.

You should be happy to know that I did some fairly extensive research on pretty much all of the political parties out there, and found that perhaps I would be better off giving my annual donations to the Green Party.  When I first looked into them, there was something I didn't like that made me lean towards the Libertarian Party, but when I checked their home page again today, they didn't seem out of line with my beliefs.  So thanks for enlightening me.  :wink: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineAndytweed
Andytweed

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 97
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1249742 - 01/26/03 07:24 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


So that is why both sides are really stupid. I see good idea's get shot down here all the time, and bad one's get applauded, for absolutely no reason besides the fact that whatever party it is you affiliate yourself with told you to think that, or the idea originated from the other party.



Word.


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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OfflineAndytweed
Andytweed

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 97
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1249747 - 01/26/03 07:28 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I hate politics but it is involved with my life so I choose the party that has the least bullshit and that's the right or Republicans


Do you really believe that?
I don't catagorize myself under any political party so it's not like I'm a democrat who is against all Republican beliefs, but if you think Republicans are the least full of shit I feel sorry for you.


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 22 years, 25 days
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Andytweed]
    #1250137 - 01/26/03 11:06 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

if you think Republicans are the least full of shit I feel sorry for you.



I'll rephrase this. Republicans are the least full of shit that have a chance of the 2 major parties to make it in office.

And if you want to tell me the Left, in general, is the least full of shit I think you should open your eyes and look at history.

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OfflineAndytweed
Andytweed

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 97
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1250184 - 01/26/03 11:24 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"And if you want to tell me the Left, in general, is the least full of shit I think you should open your eyes and look at history. "

Did I say that?
No. I didn't.


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

Edited by Andytweed (01/26/03 11:25 AM)

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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 22 years, 25 days
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1250221 - 01/26/03 11:38 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What to collectively use all these organization's resources?
Are you really that ignorant?




Bush had to make up for all teh money that Clinton cut from the military and put billions back in.

Quote:

I was referring to the Clinton Administration.
Again, name me one person that has had half of their paycheck taken out for federal taxes.



Ok they didn't have half their paycheck taken away but after 38% was gone then state tax would come in if there was any and that's a lot of money taken away that should belong to the person who worked for it, not for the government. And who'd this affect, everybody who works in an America.


Fuck you if you can't understand what I'm trying to say, there's things I agree with Bush on and there's things that I could give a shit about. I'd rather pay less taxes and have a defecit that will go back up in time rather than raise the FUCK out a taxes cut military funding and have no deficit.

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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 22 years, 25 days
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Andytweed]
    #1250225 - 01/26/03 11:39 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Did I say that?



IF

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OfflineAndytweed
Andytweed

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 97
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1250239 - 01/26/03 11:45 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"Fuck you if you can't understand what I'm trying to say, there's things I agree with Bush on and there's things that I could give a shit about. I'd rather pay less taxes and have a defecit that will go back up in time rather than raise the FUCK out a taxes cut military funding and have no deficit."

That's a very mature way of carrying a discussion.

And what evidence do you have that the deficit will go back down? It didn't when Reagan was President or when King Bush I was in power.


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 22 years, 25 days
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Andytweed]
    #1250281 - 01/26/03 12:04 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I don't have any, but the deficit started to go down during Reagan then went back up. Only time will tell.

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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1250405 - 01/26/03 12:53 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"I'd rather pay less taxes and have a defecit that will go back up in time rather than raise the FUCK out a taxes cut military funding and have no deficit."

The Government's said that for a long time, but the national debt continues to grow.  The national debt is already at $6.4 trillion and the annual interest payment on the national debt now works out to an average of about $2,000 per taxpayer per year.  Our kids and grandkids will surely appreciate the fact that because you want to save a few extra bucks today, they will be forced to spend a lot more in taxes tomorrow to cover not only interest on money that you borrowed, but also the balance that you didn't pay off just because you believed you should reap the benefits of taxes without paying for it.  :mad:

Edit:  I thought you said you understood this in another post.  :wink:


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (01/26/03 06:11 PM)

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