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OfflineEllis Dee
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Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel?
    #1348977 - 03/04/03 12:27 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

From another thread:

Quote:

Quote:

Sorry to disagree. There should be no government run safety net, and no taxpayer monies used in any way far any type of privately run safety net.

And no income tax. A national sales tax is a far better method of financing constitutionally allowed programs. Nothing else should be taxpayer financed.







These are the reasons I can figure out (some blatently stolen from elsewhere):

1) White Male backlash and anger to a changing world they
don't care to understand or to change.

2) Taxes to many Taxes

3) Bill Clinton

4) They view moderates and lefties as weak and bleeding heart (but it's okay to be compassiante).

5) Just plain cynical and full-of-hatred.

6) Bill Clinton

7) Not enough fiber

8) Bill Clinton


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1348979 - 03/04/03 12:32 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

9) Because they have a 2 inch dick that spins.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Skikid16]
    #1348986 - 03/04/03 12:42 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with luvdem, on most issues, just disagree on the saftey net and elimination of income tax thing.

I think too many people liberals and conservatives don't think through the conequences of their ideas. If there was no taxation, or no saftey net, or no polution limits, or no privatly owned guns, and that kind of thing.

People don't realize, that if the saftey net was eliminated children and the elderly would literally stave to death in America, that things would be far worse.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349008 - 03/04/03 01:01 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Conservatives tend to want to invade everyone, and liberate them from their tyranical government by blowing them up.

Damn bleeding heart conservatives. Why can't these people free their damn selves like we did, and if they don't want to be free then why should we care?


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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349027 - 03/04/03 01:27 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Standing in line, marking time
Waiting for the welfare dime
'Cause they can't find a job
The man in the silk suit hurries by
As he catches the poor horrible ladies' eyes
Just for fun he says: "Get a job"

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
Ah, but don't you believe them

They said: "Hey little boy, you can't go where the others go
'Cause you don't look like they do"
They said: "Hey old man, how can you stand to think that way
Did you really think about it before you made the rules"
He said: Son

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
Ah, but don't you believe them

Mmm, yeah

(That's just the way it is)
(That's just the way it is)

Well, they passed a law in '64
To give those who ain't got a little more
But it only goes so far
'Cause the law don't change another's mind
When all it sees at the hiring time
Is the line on the color bar, oh no

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
That's just the way it is, it is, it is, it is


What do I think?

You cannot justify stealing. You are wrong about this one, Rail Gun.

People starve, life is tough.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349041 - 03/04/03 01:41 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think what it comes down to is that they feel if their tax dollars go to someone else, that is stealing, and so they feel violated because of that. Basically, they feel it's not their problem if someone else is starving. They further justify this to themselves and to others by convincing themselves that anyone who can't make it out of poverty is lazy or incompetent. This oversimplification makes them feel less guilty about letting others starve.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349101 - 03/04/03 08:32 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It is an invalid question to begin with. The way it is phrased assumes facts not in evidence. It's no different from asking someone "So, have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

First we must ask "Are conservatives heartless and cruel?"

If the answer is yes, then and only then is it proper to proceed to your question: "Why are they that way?"

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349113 - 03/04/03 08:46 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

There are certainly a lot of heartless and cruel right-wingers in the world. They usually don't see themselves that way tho. Hitler thought he was being compassionate by getting rid of the jews.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1349289 - 03/04/03 09:53 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

If you want to play the (business) game in America you got to play by the rules. If you don't like the rules then don't play the game, Live in the park and eat squirrels, or go play in some other country.

Stealing isn't always wrong, and taxes arent stealing. If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to pay taxes. All they have to do is not make money.  :grin:


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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1349370 - 03/04/03 10:17 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It is one thing to Give tax dollars to children or handicapped people. Or to give unemployment for a limited time period to assist those that do work to find another job. It is entirely something else to continue to feed an entire class of people who think it is a GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO HAVE CHILDREN regardless of their ability to financially SUSTAIN themselves or any children they CHOOSE to have.

Compassionate conservatives CAN see the difference between NEED and WANT. This doesn't make them CRUEL. It makes them REALISTS. After all they themselves are RESPONSIBLE for their own actions.

The notion that a poor person with CHILDREN is not placing themselves in harms way is ABSURD. We should be taking care of the children because it is NECESSARY. We should not be taking care of the parents, because it is THEIR OWN RESPONSIBILITY.

SO all you LIBERALS can give your hard earned money to who ever you want through whatever CHARITY organization you would like to. BUT don't try and use the rest of AMERICAS MONEY to finance the never ending cycle of IRRESPONSIBILITY.

PEOPLE MAKE CHOICES IN AMERICA. THEY MUST DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENSES OF THESE CHOICES. IF YOUR LAME CHOICE creates a LIFE, we will take care of the LIFE, but not YOU TOO.


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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1349388 - 03/04/03 10:22 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHY HITLER HAD A HARD ON FOR JEWS. AFTER ALL HE WAS A HALF JEW HIMSELF?

To put adolf hitler and Conservativism in the same sentence just shows how FUCKING IGNORANT you really are.

Conservatives are for LESS intervention by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT into the lives of AMERICANS. VERY FEW CONSERVATIVES don't support HELPING those in NEED. They just don't want to help finance IRRESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1349439 - 03/04/03 10:36 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Conservatives are for LESS intervention by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT into the lives of AMERICANS. VERY FEW CONSERVATIVES don't support HELPING those in NEED. They just don't want to help finance IRRESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR.



I worked fundraising for the GOP for 11 months, mainly for the business advisory council. I know firsthand how wrong this is. Conservatives are for corporate welfare, as opposed to poor folks welfare. Conservatives are for a ban on internet gambling, virtual child porn protection act (making it illegal to draw a made up pic of a kid), the war on drugs, the patriot act, the patriot act 2, the total information awareness, operation tips, and other freedom stomping measures.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1349444 - 03/04/03 10:38 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think what it comes down to is that they feel if their tax dollars go to someone else, that is stealing, and so they feel violated because of that.

Let's talk about facts first and then a little later let's talk about feelings.

What is stealing?  The dictionary says: "1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission."  This is the primary meaning of the word.  Now without splitting a lot of hairs it means what it means.  When an entity (read the government) takes my money away from me and gives it to someone else it is stealing.  Doesn't matter what I feel about it and it doesn't matter what you feel about it.  It is stealing.

Basically, they feel it's not their problem if someone else is starving.

The bald fact is that if someone else is starving it isn't my fault.  It may not even be their fault.  Though to be fair it may.  Some people are indigent of their own accord.

They further justify this to themselves and to others by convincing themselves that anyone who can't make it out of poverty is lazy or incompetent.

This is true in some cases. There is no denying it.  Some conservatives are sensitive and use the fact that it isn't their fault to assuage their conscience.  But as you so deftly pointed out there are some people who, through no fault of their own, are poverty stricken.  So, they really cannot use that excuse if they are honest to themselves or others.  And to suggest that people are poverty stricken are lazy when they are not is inconsiderate at best and an outright lie at worst.

This oversimplification makes them feel less guilty about letting others starve.

This argument itself is rather oversimplistic but we needn't go into that.  And, in some instances, there is no doubt you are right here as well.

So, we see that your argument does not fit squarely with the facts.  You may not like the facts.  I may not like the facts.  But, there they are.  We either have to accept them or live in a world of feelings versus facts.  Give me facts first.  Then I will understand.

So let's talk directly about these feelings.  If we see someone starving should we feel guilt?  I say, no we shouldn't.  Should we, if we have a heart, feel bad?  I say, yes, we should.

And there is all the difference in the world.

Now, I am not a conservative.  Neither am I am liberal.  Although, depending on which friend of mine you talk to you will receive each answer in reference to which question is asked.  My rightwing friends label me a liberal and my leftwing friends label me a conservative.

If you function from the level of false guilt over the plight of someone else's misfortune where do you stop?  In your country people are staving.  So you pay your fair share of taxes but you never really miss the money and you never give of your time, effort or money to feed the poor directly out of your own pocket.  Or maybe you do feel the false guilt enough that you actually do give of your resources directly to feed the poor of your own country.

Then what about the poor in other people's countries?  Is it ok for them to starve because your goverment "takes care of its own"?  And you feel no false guilt about that?  Shouldn't you?  Just how far do you carry this?

Is it ok for you to demand your government to feed the entire world at the expense of someone else because you are too shiftless to have a job or you find ways to dodge paying your fair share of taxes?

Then you have the best of both worlds.  You can feel good because you know they are being taken care of without you ever lifting a finger to help them.

Wonderful.

Please don't take any of this personally because none of it was meant that way.  I am only asked you to fearlessly inspect your feelings and thoughts using reason.  I don't think that is an unreasonable request.

Now this is a rather long post and I sincerely hope you have followed me on this because I would like answers to my questions.  No matter how long your post is I can assure you I will read it.

So, lastly let me tell you about a guy I know.

He is a moderator here at the Shroomery.  He does that because he really likes mushrooms. But it is more than that.  He moderates the Support Group forum because he cares about the people that post here.  He moderates the the Other Drugs Discussion forum for the same reason.  He is building the Hunting FAQ so that people won't poison themselves by eating a poisonous mushroom when they are just trying to get high.

He exchanges pm's, e-mails, posts, and even phone calls that total over a hundred dollars a month to counsel people here that are in need.

Two quick stories about him and I'll end this post.

On Thankgiving Day not too long ago he was making the entire Thanksgiving Day dinner from scratch for his wife.  He figured it was his turn. :smile:  At the last minute he had to run to the store to get a few items he had forgotten.  When he was in the checkout line a young black women was with a few of her children trying to purchase all the trimmings for her Thanksgiving Day dinner.  She had a turkey, stuff for making the dressing, rolls, and everything she needed.

But when she tried to pay for it on her credit card it wouldn't go through.  Something was wrong with the card.  So she tried to write a check.  But her ID didn't match the information on the check and the cashier had to call the manager.  He wouldn't approve the purchase.

He could see the look of desperation on her face.  So he did what he thought he should do.  That's right.  He paid for everything and swiftly got out of the store before she could thank him.  Before he could make it to his car her little son came running out of the store and asked him if he paid for all of it because his Mom wanted his address so she could send him the money.

He declined.

The boy's face lit up like a candle and when the man got home he broke down in tears.

This same man is a former politician.  When he was elected he was immediately put in charge of the Street, Sewer, and Sanitation Committee.  Solid waste was his field of expertise.  Budget time followed hard on the heels of the election and he was informed that he would have to raise the Trash rate in order to balance the budget for the next year.

He was horrified.

So he asked the mayor if the city had a trash contract with the local landfill.  The mayor told him, no, they didn't.  So he used his knowledge of solid waste to negotiate the first ever contract for the city with the landfill.

The budget was balanced and he singlehandedly saved the constituents $750,000.00 over the next 5 years.  That money was able to be spent by the families in the city to buy goods and services from the community and thus increase their local economy.

When the negotiation was complete the Finance Director was so impressed he wanted to have a special resolution drawn up for this man so that the entire city would know what he had done.

He declined that too.  And today few people realize what he did for their city.  But that's all right he thinks.  He was just doing his job.

This same man will tell you he feels no guilt for the plight of others he had no hand in creating although he does feel bad.  He won't force Peter to pay Paul to make himself feel good.  Instead, he'll roll up his own sleeves and pitch in whenever he can to help.

That's his way.


Cheers, 


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349492 - 03/04/03 10:56 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

1) White Male backlash and anger to a changing world they don't care to understand or to change.



Not even close. I'm merely a believer in the constitution. There is no provision, and actually a prohibition, in the constitution about what the federal government is allowed to do. Safety nets are nowhere in the constitution.

I'd be willing to bet I give a bunch more money to charities and other causes than most on this site. Key word being "give".

Plus... I'm a landlord. I have 45 apartments. Many low income tenants. I refurbish old computers and give them to my tenants who can't afford one on their own. Pretty heartless huh? I pay for my two FORMER step-kids to go to college. Yup.... real heartless.

The rest of your questions were answered in the first response here.

Plus I'm tired of seeing brood sows pop out kids they can't afford. I'm tired of people who rather than start an IRA or 401k, waste their money on the latest toy. It's their money, but if they choose not to invest or save it, that's not my problem.


EDIT: Anyway, the point is don't think you know enough about me to decide I'm heartless. I don't like the government stealing from me to pay for things not allowed in the constitution. And I definitely don't like my money going to lazy fucks who don't want to work or aren't smart enough to stop having kids they can't afford. Giving people like that money only encourages foolish behaviour.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (03/04/03 11:34 AM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1349644 - 03/04/03 11:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Now, I am not a conservative. Neither am I am liberal. Although, depending on which friend of mine you talk to you will receive each answer in reference to which question is asked. My rightwing friends label me a liberal and my leftwing friends label me a conservative.



I find I sometimes have trouble figuring out if your expressing your own political views or if you're playing devil's advocate, so I never really figured which side you lean towards.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (03/04/03 11:55 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349671 - 03/04/03 12:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I don't agree with any of the platforms you outlined. I am not the GOP.

I don't think the GOP are conservative, I know they are more conservative then the average liberal though.

I look at each situation individually and form my opinion. When I stated I was a conservative, I meant ECONOMICALLY. I think corporate welfare is a consequence of the TAXATION system already in place. The Rich feel the necessity to recover some of their losses, the only way they can. Healthy(RICH) corporations supply opportunity to AMERICANS. Welfare dependent GENERATIONS burden the economy, and perpetuate the incentive to not claim responsibility for their own actions.

I care about the children. I care about the handicapped. I just don't care about POOR FUCKS who have children, KNOWING that they are poor.

As far as the Intrusive agenda of EITHER party into the private lives of American citizens, I say TAKE YOUR AGENDA AND SHOVE IT.

I don't care if some pervert wants to draw a picture of a naked child. As long as there is not VICTIM(real child), who cares.

Do I have a problem with the government gaining some tools to fight terrorists. NO. I will have a problem when those tools are used IRRESPONSIBLY.



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1349690 - 03/04/03 12:12 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Do I have a problem with the government gaining some tools to fight terrorists. NO. I will have a problem when those tools are used IRRESPONSIBLY.



The key to understanding really bad laws...
is to assess how they could be misused by bad people.

On this basis, Patriot Act I, II, and total information awareness is scary.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349847 - 03/04/03 01:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Extremely scary!!!!! I just choose to remain optomistic that those with the power to misuse the tools understand that the tools can be used against them as well.



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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1349951 - 03/04/03 01:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Your confusion is the same confusion others have had about me. The fact is that I am nearly in the middle between conservative and liberal.

If I ever play the devil's advocate I always mention I am doing that.

Did my long post make sense? Do you understand why I think social programs are theft? Where would you draw the line?

Each of us draws the line at a place he finds comfortable. Labeling others as heartless and cruel because they don't adopt your standard of morality is rather narrow, don't you think?

Cheers,


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1350144 - 03/04/03 03:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I had you pegged for Gandhi too, hmphh :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (03/04/03 03:03 PM)


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