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Offlinerommstein2001
Rise ye Must!
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Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 3,182
Loc: South GA
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1243779 - 01/23/03 06:23 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

libertarian....all i have to say.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1243834 - 01/23/03 06:45 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"Taxes are an obstacle in the economy and the less taxes there are then the easier it will be for more money to be made. Does this make sense to you?"

That's exactly my point. Why is Bush increasing the defecit, thereby increasing the amount of taxes I'll have to pay for the rest of my life? You can't increase the deficit without increasing the future tax burden. Does this make sense to you?


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1243853 - 01/23/03 06:51 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"Its because of this that a Chinese spy got the secrets for a nuke. That gutting closed America's eyes and made us vulnerable and weak as far as knowing our country and other countries."

I don't see how reduced intelligence has anything to do with the Chinese getting secrets. Besides, China became a nuclear power in 1964.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1243857 - 01/23/03 06:53 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

libertarian....all i have to say. 

I'm with you on that.  I'm a card carrying member.  :grin: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1243893 - 01/23/03 07:03 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Why is Bush increasing the defecit, thereby increasing the amount of taxes I'll have to pay for the rest of my life? You can't increase the deficit without increasing the future tax burden. Does this make sense to you?



He increases it b/c he must fund shit like Homeland. But you didn't hear all of what I said. This tax cut will take a couple years to actually work. As far as I know, this deficit plays little to nothing a role in my everyday life. Maybe it could decrease the worth of the dollar. But you'll get more money and with the more jobs from the tax break there will be more... I'm just repeating myself. I understand where you're coming from, Clinton had his way of handling it, and now Bush is doing it his way. All I can do is see how well it works. The way it looks to my eyes is that it will take a little longer without the aggravation of the loss of a hard earned paycheck. But if anything its better than having half your paycheck taken away.

my opinion,
Dilauded


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1243902 - 01/23/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I'm with you on that. I'm a card carrying member.

You express some pretty non-Libertarian points of view for a professed Libertarian, my friend. Anyone can CALL themselves a Libertarian.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (01/23/03 07:06 PM)


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1243914 - 01/23/03 07:09 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You express some pretty non-Libertarian points of view for a professed Libertarian, my friend. Anyone can CALL themselves a Libertarian.

I never realized support of the Republican party was a requirement.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1243940 - 01/23/03 07:19 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Why is Bush increasing the defecit, thereby increasing the amount of taxes I'll have to pay for the rest of my life? You can't increase the deficit without increasing the future tax burden.



Why can't more people grasp this concept?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Evolving]
    #1243993 - 01/23/03 07:41 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Are you saying higher taxes is the answer?


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1244015 - 01/23/03 07:50 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

GoBlue! writes:

I never realized support of the Republican party was a requirement.

It's not. Republicans are (for the most part) not Libertarians. But neither are Democrats or Liberals. Perhaps I was misinterpreting your statements:

"If there's any Republicans who think Democrats like paying taxes, then that's yet another stupid misunderstanding. We simply believe that taxes should match spending." I interpreted that your use of "we" in this context meant you considered yourself a Democrat.

and

I don't know why this type of misunderstanding always happens. When I talk to my conservative friends, I'm amazed by how much we actually agree on things once we start talking. I interpreted that to mean you were a liberal.

and

I think it's also fair to say that many conservatives are also in support of limited social programs to assist the retarded, handicapped, single mothers with infants, etc as well. I interpreted that to mean you are in favor of social programs.

I have yet to meet a Libertarian who would make any one of the three above statements, let alone all three. However, it is possible you merely mis-spoke yourself, or it is possible that I misinterpreted. But I can only draw conclusions by what you actually write here; I am not clairvoyant. Maybe you are not really a liberal Democrat in favor of social programs, but only give that impression by accident. Here's your chance to correct any false impressions you may have inadvertently created.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Evolving]
    #1244027 - 01/23/03 07:54 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks Evolving. I don't think Delauded gets it.

Delauded, I understand that spending is up because of shit like Homeland. But if you increase spending you must increase taxes to cover the increased spending. You can either do it now, or you can do it later. But if you do it later you pay interest, and you also reduce the amount of money you have available in the future. We don't know what spending needs are in the future, so I would rather do it now. Like you, I hate paying taxes. But I realize it is necessary for things like defense, homeland, etc...


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1244057 - 01/23/03 08:06 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Good points pink.  My apologies - please let me clarify. 

I am officially Libertarian.  However, I tend to vote Democrat, since Libertarians don't yet have enough support to win elections.  That's why I often just call myself Democrat.

I have always considered myself liberal.  But your definition of liberal appears to be Rush Limbaugh's definition, which is a definition that very few liberals actually meet (as discussed above).

As far as support for social programs goes, Libertarians aren't opposed to this.  We simply believe it should be funded privately and voluntarily.  But until a significant portion of the population subscribes to this thought, I think the Government should take care of basic needs for the time being.

Hope this clears things up.  Thanks for pointing out the apparent discrepancies.  :smirk: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1244072 - 01/23/03 08:12 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Are you saying higher taxes is the answer?



Not at all. Governments, like their subjects who are saddled with the burden of supporting them, must learn to live within their means. Government debt is indeed taxation without representation, for it must be paid with the future earnings of those who are not yet allowed to vote and may not yet even be born. There is so much waste in government, so much inefficiency, that those who champion higher taxes or increased spending are unqualified to run a household, let alone vote on delivering their fellow citizens and descendants into economic bondage in the name of 'the good of society.'


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Evolving]
    #1244087 - 01/23/03 08:22 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"Government must learn to live within their means."

Well said, Evolving.    :smile: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1244090 - 01/23/03 08:23 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

ahhh, ok I understand what you n evolving are saying now.

Shit that sucks then.

OOoo another brain cell,
Dilauded


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1244093 - 01/23/03 08:26 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

GoBlue! writes:

But your definition of liberal appears to be Rush Limbaugh's definition, which is a definition that very few liberals actually meet (as discussed above).

Then Rush Limbaugh (for once) has actually described something accurately. Liberals tend to get flustered when people state things as they really ARE. I am reminded of this quote from Steve Kangas:

"It's often the case that when a critic uses an embarrassingly accurate term to describe what a wrong-doer is doing, the wrong-doer protests: 'Why don't you use my white-washed, conscience-soothing euphemism?' Such euphemisms, they claim, help promote 'civilized debate.' "

I ask you again, do Liberals believe that every citizen has the obligation to give up whatever portion of his property (earnings) the majority (the government in a Democratic country is elected by the majority, remember) decides he must, and --if he refuses to do so -- the government then has the RIGHT to seize it from him? Yes or no?

As far as support for social programs goes, Libertarians aren't opposed to this. We simply believe it should be funded privately and voluntarily.

Then it isn't a social PROGRAM, it is charity. I have stated already that I as a Libertarian have no problem with this concept. I take it that you object to any portion of your taxes being used for anything other than cops, courts, and military?

But until a significant portion of the population subscribes to this thought, I think the Government should take care of basic needs for the time being.

Why?

And so sorry, but I must point out, that belief is counter to one of the core tenets of Libertarianism, not to mention the Constitution of the United States.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1244148 - 01/23/03 08:52 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"Then Rush Limbaugh (for once) has actually described something accurately. Liberals tend to get flustered when people state things as they really ARE."

Ok, there is extreme liberalism, and extreme conservatism. But there is also a middle ground between the two. I would say that very few people are at the extremes. Since there is an infinite range in the middle, people are forced to label themselves "conservative" or "liberal". But that doesn't mean they fall at the extreme. I lean towards liberalism, so I call myself liberal. But I'm not Rush Limbaugh liberal.

"do Liberals believe that every citizen has the obligation to give up whatever portion of his property (earnings) the majority (the government in a Democratic country is elected by the majority, remember) decides he must, and --if he refuses to do so -- the government then has the RIGHT to seize it from him? Yes or no?

Probably yes. But I'd also argue most "conservatives" believe in some form of taxes as well. I'll guess you will probably say a "true" conservative doesn't believe this, and you may be right. But by this extreme definition, I'd say most "conservatives" aren't actually conservative. Most are somewhere in the middle leaning towards conservatism.

"so sorry, but I must point out, that belief is counter to one of the core tenets of Libertarianism"

I agree. But again, you are talking extreme Libertarianism. I lean towards libertarianism, but I'm not an extreme libertarian. Too bad there's not a way to label the infinite number of "in between" positions.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1244195 - 01/23/03 09:15 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

GoBlue! writes:

Ok, there is extreme liberalism, and extreme conservatism. But there is also a middle ground between the two.

What is the middle ground in taking money from people against their will to spend on programs they oppose? "Well, we'll only take 40% of your earnings this year instead of 50%, is that okay with you? No? Too bad."

It is an either-or situation here. Either it is correct IN PRINCIPLE to seize people's stuff or it isn't. The actual AMOUNT seized is a mere detail.

But I'd also argue most "conservatives" believe in some form of taxes as well.

To a Conservative the PRINCIPLE involved is what those taxes are used for.

But again, you are talking extreme Libertarianism.

No, I'm talking Libertarianism. There is NO Libertarian who believes tax dollars are to be spent on income redistribution. Not one. That is a Socialist principle, and the antithesis of Libertarianism. As a matter of fact, I'd have a pretty hard time coming up with an example more antithetical than that.

I lean towards libertarianism, but I'm not an extreme libertarian.

I don't say this to offend, but if you have any Libertarian leaning, it is pretty slight. From the answers to my questions, I would say you are a moderate Liberal, maybe even a right-Liberal.

I don't say this is necessarily a BAD thing, but to call yourself a Libertarian and then to post the opinions you do is to completely misrepresent what Libertarianism stands for.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1244302 - 01/23/03 10:07 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

What is the middle ground in taking money from people against their will to spend on programs they oppose?

If that were the only thing a conservative stood for, then you are correct, there would be no middle ground. But there are some conservatives who do believe in conservative principles, but also believe in taxes (I would say most conservatives fall into this category). Maybe they're not "true" conservatives, but then what the hell are they?

There is NO Libertarian who believes tax dollars are to be spent on income redistribution. Not one.

I would say when the country is Libertarian, then charity can and should take care of the needy. But until enough people believe in Libertarianism, I believe charity is insufficient for the time being.

"If you have any Libertarian leaning, it is pretty slight."

As you're aware, the Libertarian Party line is: "We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose." I believe in this principle more than that of any other party.

Perhaps I'm not an extreme Libertarian, but what should a person who is more Libertarian than anything else call himself??? Maybe moderate Liberal like you said, but I believe in the concept of very, very, few laws, which isn't entirely a liberal concept.

If you can only be a "hard core" party member, then every party has a much smaller membership than they think. The world isn't black and white.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (01/24/03 07:09 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1244448 - 01/23/03 11:40 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

But if you increase spending you must increase taxes to cover the increased spending.



Bullshit. What should be done if spending increases are necessary for a program is reduce spending elsewhere. They take far more than they should now.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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