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OfflineEllis Dee
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Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel?
    #1348977 - 03/03/03 10:27 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

From another thread:

Quote:

Quote:

Sorry to disagree. There should be no government run safety net, and no taxpayer monies used in any way far any type of privately run safety net.

And no income tax. A national sales tax is a far better method of financing constitutionally allowed programs. Nothing else should be taxpayer financed.







These are the reasons I can figure out (some blatently stolen from elsewhere):

1) White Male backlash and anger to a changing world they
don't care to understand or to change.

2) Taxes to many Taxes

3) Bill Clinton

4) They view moderates and lefties as weak and bleeding heart (but it's okay to be compassiante).

5) Just plain cynical and full-of-hatred.

6) Bill Clinton

7) Not enough fiber

8) Bill Clinton


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1348979 - 03/03/03 10:32 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

9) Because they have a 2 inch dick that spins.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Skikid16]
    #1348986 - 03/03/03 10:42 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with luvdem, on most issues, just disagree on the saftey net and elimination of income tax thing.

I think too many people liberals and conservatives don't think through the conequences of their ideas. If there was no taxation, or no saftey net, or no polution limits, or no privatly owned guns, and that kind of thing.

People don't realize, that if the saftey net was eliminated children and the elderly would literally stave to death in America, that things would be far worse.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349008 - 03/03/03 11:01 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Conservatives tend to want to invade everyone, and liberate them from their tyranical government by blowing them up.

Damn bleeding heart conservatives. Why can't these people free their damn selves like we did, and if they don't want to be free then why should we care?


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This space for rent

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349027 - 03/03/03 11:27 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Standing in line, marking time
Waiting for the welfare dime
'Cause they can't find a job
The man in the silk suit hurries by
As he catches the poor horrible ladies' eyes
Just for fun he says: "Get a job"

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
Ah, but don't you believe them

They said: "Hey little boy, you can't go where the others go
'Cause you don't look like they do"
They said: "Hey old man, how can you stand to think that way
Did you really think about it before you made the rules"
He said: Son

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
Ah, but don't you believe them

Mmm, yeah

(That's just the way it is)
(That's just the way it is)

Well, they passed a law in '64
To give those who ain't got a little more
But it only goes so far
'Cause the law don't change another's mind
When all it sees at the hiring time
Is the line on the color bar, oh no

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
That's just the way it is, it is, it is, it is


What do I think?

You cannot justify stealing. You are wrong about this one, Rail Gun.

People starve, life is tough.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349041 - 03/03/03 11:41 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I think what it comes down to is that they feel if their tax dollars go to someone else, that is stealing, and so they feel violated because of that. Basically, they feel it's not their problem if someone else is starving. They further justify this to themselves and to others by convincing themselves that anyone who can't make it out of poverty is lazy or incompetent. This oversimplification makes them feel less guilty about letting others starve.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349101 - 03/04/03 06:32 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

It is an invalid question to begin with. The way it is phrased assumes facts not in evidence. It's no different from asking someone "So, have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

First we must ask "Are conservatives heartless and cruel?"

If the answer is yes, then and only then is it proper to proceed to your question: "Why are they that way?"

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349113 - 03/04/03 06:46 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

There are certainly a lot of heartless and cruel right-wingers in the world. They usually don't see themselves that way tho. Hitler thought he was being compassionate by getting rid of the jews.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1349289 - 03/04/03 07:53 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

If you want to play the (business) game in America you got to play by the rules. If you don't like the rules then don't play the game, Live in the park and eat squirrels, or go play in some other country.

Stealing isn't always wrong, and taxes arent stealing. If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to pay taxes. All they have to do is not make money.  :grin:


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This space for rent

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1349370 - 03/04/03 08:17 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

It is one thing to Give tax dollars to children or handicapped people. Or to give unemployment for a limited time period to assist those that do work to find another job. It is entirely something else to continue to feed an entire class of people who think it is a GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO HAVE CHILDREN regardless of their ability to financially SUSTAIN themselves or any children they CHOOSE to have.

Compassionate conservatives CAN see the difference between NEED and WANT. This doesn't make them CRUEL. It makes them REALISTS. After all they themselves are RESPONSIBLE for their own actions.

The notion that a poor person with CHILDREN is not placing themselves in harms way is ABSURD. We should be taking care of the children because it is NECESSARY. We should not be taking care of the parents, because it is THEIR OWN RESPONSIBILITY.

SO all you LIBERALS can give your hard earned money to who ever you want through whatever CHARITY organization you would like to. BUT don't try and use the rest of AMERICAS MONEY to finance the never ending cycle of IRRESPONSIBILITY.

PEOPLE MAKE CHOICES IN AMERICA. THEY MUST DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENSES OF THESE CHOICES. IF YOUR LAME CHOICE creates a LIFE, we will take care of the LIFE, but not YOU TOO.

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1349388 - 03/04/03 08:22 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHY HITLER HAD A HARD ON FOR JEWS. AFTER ALL HE WAS A HALF JEW HIMSELF?

To put adolf hitler and Conservativism in the same sentence just shows how FUCKING IGNORANT you really are.

Conservatives are for LESS intervention by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT into the lives of AMERICANS. VERY FEW CONSERVATIVES don't support HELPING those in NEED. They just don't want to help finance IRRESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1349439 - 03/04/03 08:36 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Conservatives are for LESS intervention by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT into the lives of AMERICANS. VERY FEW CONSERVATIVES don't support HELPING those in NEED. They just don't want to help finance IRRESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR.



I worked fundraising for the GOP for 11 months, mainly for the business advisory council. I know firsthand how wrong this is. Conservatives are for corporate welfare, as opposed to poor folks welfare. Conservatives are for a ban on internet gambling, virtual child porn protection act (making it illegal to draw a made up pic of a kid), the war on drugs, the patriot act, the patriot act 2, the total information awareness, operation tips, and other freedom stomping measures.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1349444 - 03/04/03 08:38 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I think what it comes down to is that they feel if their tax dollars go to someone else, that is stealing, and so they feel violated because of that.

Let's talk about facts first and then a little later let's talk about feelings.

What is stealing?  The dictionary says: "1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission."  This is the primary meaning of the word.  Now without splitting a lot of hairs it means what it means.  When an entity (read the government) takes my money away from me and gives it to someone else it is stealing.  Doesn't matter what I feel about it and it doesn't matter what you feel about it.  It is stealing.

Basically, they feel it's not their problem if someone else is starving.

The bald fact is that if someone else is starving it isn't my fault.  It may not even be their fault.  Though to be fair it may.  Some people are indigent of their own accord.

They further justify this to themselves and to others by convincing themselves that anyone who can't make it out of poverty is lazy or incompetent.

This is true in some cases. There is no denying it.  Some conservatives are sensitive and use the fact that it isn't their fault to assuage their conscience.  But as you so deftly pointed out there are some people who, through no fault of their own, are poverty stricken.  So, they really cannot use that excuse if they are honest to themselves or others.  And to suggest that people are poverty stricken are lazy when they are not is inconsiderate at best and an outright lie at worst.

This oversimplification makes them feel less guilty about letting others starve.

This argument itself is rather oversimplistic but we needn't go into that.  And, in some instances, there is no doubt you are right here as well.

So, we see that your argument does not fit squarely with the facts.  You may not like the facts.  I may not like the facts.  But, there they are.  We either have to accept them or live in a world of feelings versus facts.  Give me facts first.  Then I will understand.

So let's talk directly about these feelings.  If we see someone starving should we feel guilt?  I say, no we shouldn't.  Should we, if we have a heart, feel bad?  I say, yes, we should.

And there is all the difference in the world.

Now, I am not a conservative.  Neither am I am liberal.  Although, depending on which friend of mine you talk to you will receive each answer in reference to which question is asked.  My rightwing friends label me a liberal and my leftwing friends label me a conservative.

If you function from the level of false guilt over the plight of someone else's misfortune where do you stop?  In your country people are staving.  So you pay your fair share of taxes but you never really miss the money and you never give of your time, effort or money to feed the poor directly out of your own pocket.  Or maybe you do feel the false guilt enough that you actually do give of your resources directly to feed the poor of your own country.

Then what about the poor in other people's countries?  Is it ok for them to starve because your goverment "takes care of its own"?  And you feel no false guilt about that?  Shouldn't you?  Just how far do you carry this?

Is it ok for you to demand your government to feed the entire world at the expense of someone else because you are too shiftless to have a job or you find ways to dodge paying your fair share of taxes?

Then you have the best of both worlds.  You can feel good because you know they are being taken care of without you ever lifting a finger to help them.

Wonderful.

Please don't take any of this personally because none of it was meant that way.  I am only asked you to fearlessly inspect your feelings and thoughts using reason.  I don't think that is an unreasonable request.

Now this is a rather long post and I sincerely hope you have followed me on this because I would like answers to my questions.  No matter how long your post is I can assure you I will read it.

So, lastly let me tell you about a guy I know.

He is a moderator here at the Shroomery.  He does that because he really likes mushrooms. But it is more than that.  He moderates the Support Group forum because he cares about the people that post here.  He moderates the the Other Drugs Discussion forum for the same reason.  He is building the Hunting FAQ so that people won't poison themselves by eating a poisonous mushroom when they are just trying to get high.

He exchanges pm's, e-mails, posts, and even phone calls that total over a hundred dollars a month to counsel people here that are in need.

Two quick stories about him and I'll end this post.

On Thankgiving Day not too long ago he was making the entire Thanksgiving Day dinner from scratch for his wife.  He figured it was his turn. :smile:  At the last minute he had to run to the store to get a few items he had forgotten.  When he was in the checkout line a young black women was with a few of her children trying to purchase all the trimmings for her Thanksgiving Day dinner.  She had a turkey, stuff for making the dressing, rolls, and everything she needed.

But when she tried to pay for it on her credit card it wouldn't go through.  Something was wrong with the card.  So she tried to write a check.  But her ID didn't match the information on the check and the cashier had to call the manager.  He wouldn't approve the purchase.

He could see the look of desperation on her face.  So he did what he thought he should do.  That's right.  He paid for everything and swiftly got out of the store before she could thank him.  Before he could make it to his car her little son came running out of the store and asked him if he paid for all of it because his Mom wanted his address so she could send him the money.

He declined.

The boy's face lit up like a candle and when the man got home he broke down in tears.

This same man is a former politician.  When he was elected he was immediately put in charge of the Street, Sewer, and Sanitation Committee.  Solid waste was his field of expertise.  Budget time followed hard on the heels of the election and he was informed that he would have to raise the Trash rate in order to balance the budget for the next year.

He was horrified.

So he asked the mayor if the city had a trash contract with the local landfill.  The mayor told him, no, they didn't.  So he used his knowledge of solid waste to negotiate the first ever contract for the city with the landfill.

The budget was balanced and he singlehandedly saved the constituents $750,000.00 over the next 5 years.  That money was able to be spent by the families in the city to buy goods and services from the community and thus increase their local economy.

When the negotiation was complete the Finance Director was so impressed he wanted to have a special resolution drawn up for this man so that the entire city would know what he had done.

He declined that too.  And today few people realize what he did for their city.  But that's all right he thinks.  He was just doing his job.

This same man will tell you he feels no guilt for the plight of others he had no hand in creating although he does feel bad.  He won't force Peter to pay Paul to make himself feel good.  Instead, he'll roll up his own sleeves and pitch in whenever he can to help.

That's his way.


Cheers, 

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349492 - 03/04/03 08:56 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

1) White Male backlash and anger to a changing world they don't care to understand or to change.



Not even close. I'm merely a believer in the constitution. There is no provision, and actually a prohibition, in the constitution about what the federal government is allowed to do. Safety nets are nowhere in the constitution.

I'd be willing to bet I give a bunch more money to charities and other causes than most on this site. Key word being "give".

Plus... I'm a landlord. I have 45 apartments. Many low income tenants. I refurbish old computers and give them to my tenants who can't afford one on their own. Pretty heartless huh? I pay for my two FORMER step-kids to go to college. Yup.... real heartless.

The rest of your questions were answered in the first response here.

Plus I'm tired of seeing brood sows pop out kids they can't afford. I'm tired of people who rather than start an IRA or 401k, waste their money on the latest toy. It's their money, but if they choose not to invest or save it, that's not my problem.


EDIT: Anyway, the point is don't think you know enough about me to decide I'm heartless. I don't like the government stealing from me to pay for things not allowed in the constitution. And I definitely don't like my money going to lazy fucks who don't want to work or aren't smart enough to stop having kids they can't afford. Giving people like that money only encourages foolish behaviour.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (03/04/03 09:34 AM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1349644 - 03/04/03 09:54 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Now, I am not a conservative. Neither am I am liberal. Although, depending on which friend of mine you talk to you will receive each answer in reference to which question is asked. My rightwing friends label me a liberal and my leftwing friends label me a conservative.



I find I sometimes have trouble figuring out if your expressing your own political views or if you're playing devil's advocate, so I never really figured which side you lean towards.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (03/04/03 09:55 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349671 - 03/04/03 10:06 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I don't agree with any of the platforms you outlined. I am not the GOP.

I don't think the GOP are conservative, I know they are more conservative then the average liberal though.

I look at each situation individually and form my opinion. When I stated I was a conservative, I meant ECONOMICALLY. I think corporate welfare is a consequence of the TAXATION system already in place. The Rich feel the necessity to recover some of their losses, the only way they can. Healthy(RICH) corporations supply opportunity to AMERICANS. Welfare dependent GENERATIONS burden the economy, and perpetuate the incentive to not claim responsibility for their own actions.

I care about the children. I care about the handicapped. I just don't care about POOR FUCKS who have children, KNOWING that they are poor.

As far as the Intrusive agenda of EITHER party into the private lives of American citizens, I say TAKE YOUR AGENDA AND SHOVE IT.

I don't care if some pervert wants to draw a picture of a naked child. As long as there is not VICTIM(real child), who cares.

Do I have a problem with the government gaining some tools to fight terrorists. NO. I will have a problem when those tools are used IRRESPONSIBLY.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1349690 - 03/04/03 10:12 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Do I have a problem with the government gaining some tools to fight terrorists. NO. I will have a problem when those tools are used IRRESPONSIBLY.



The key to understanding really bad laws...
is to assess how they could be misused by bad people.

On this basis, Patriot Act I, II, and total information awareness is scary.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349847 - 03/04/03 11:02 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Extremely scary!!!!! I just choose to remain optomistic that those with the power to misuse the tools understand that the tools can be used against them as well.


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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1349951 - 03/04/03 11:35 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Your confusion is the same confusion others have had about me. The fact is that I am nearly in the middle between conservative and liberal.

If I ever play the devil's advocate I always mention I am doing that.

Did my long post make sense? Do you understand why I think social programs are theft? Where would you draw the line?

Each of us draws the line at a place he finds comfortable. Labeling others as heartless and cruel because they don't adopt your standard of morality is rather narrow, don't you think?

Cheers,

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1350144 - 03/04/03 01:00 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I had you pegged for Gandhi too, hmphh :smirk:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (03/04/03 01:03 PM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1350329 - 03/04/03 02:09 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I finally got around to reading that long post. I think I need to correct myself here. When I said "guilt," what I should have said was sympathy. For the record, I didn't say conservatives are heartless and cruel. They just have a different set of values.

As for social programs being theft, I think under your argument all taxes would be theft. If you believe that we as a society can function without taxes, then fine. But otherwise, I fail to see why it's theft if your taxes go to someone else, but not if it goes toward buying the military a new Stealth Bomber.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (03/04/03 02:15 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1350355 - 03/04/03 02:25 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Someone already noted the definition of a conservative vs. a liberal. Basically a conservative is against change. Today's liberals may be tomorrow's conservatives. But there are also several different kinds of conservatives (examples from America):

We have economical conservatives, who agree with the status quo of the American economic system. They believe in free enterprise and capitalism, lacking interference from the government, as well as welfare reform.

Also, there are social conservatives. These conservatives lean more towards accepting the status quo of yesteryear - abortions are illegal, as are drugs, and football is an all-American sport. You know the type.

Finally, we have political conservatives. These people believe in the Constitution and just law. There are places where political conservatives' interests overlap social conservatives, and even interfere with them. However, by and large, political conservatives deal more with issues such as gun ownership, torte reform and the two-party system, and general issues aimed at keeping the government small.

There are some conservatives who are conservative all the way through, but many, if not most "conservatives" fall under only one or two of these categories. I am an economical and political conservative, but a social liberal. So am I conservative? In the broad scheme, when classifying two groups for a debate, I'll generally be on the right. But as far as I'm concerned, I'm a Libertarian.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1350669 - 03/04/03 05:18 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHY HITLER HAD A HARD ON FOR JEWS. AFTER ALL HE WAS A HALF JEW HIMSELF?

No he wasn't "half jewish". The story you're inaccurately talking about is the one about whether his grandfather might have been a jew. And even if he was that doesn't make him "half-jewish". If you're talking about being "fucking ignorant" perhaps you should look at yourself.

VERY FEW CONSERVATIVES don't support HELPING those in NEED.

Depends on how you define need doesn't it.

From a February article in the guardian:

This week, as President Bush presents his latest budget, half of American cities report that they can no longer provide an "adequate quantity" of food to those applying for emergency help. Yet demand for hunger relief on the streets of urban America is rising - the number of free meals served in Kansas City last year went up to 3m. According to the US conference of mayors, 48% of the hungry are from families with children.

For America's poor (many of whom are in work but paid below subsistence level) things can only get worse. Last week I visited a Rockefeller Foundation jobs project in Gilmor Homes, a 570-unit public housing project in Baltimore. It is trying to improve job prospects for residents. But US unemployment is now 6%, and rising. Hope VI, a federal subsidy for revitalising and demolishing city housing - Baltimore, with 250,000 more dwellings than households, certainly needs it - is now being abolished by President Bush.

Because the Republicans control Congress, Bush's budget will go through. A Keynesian might have no trouble with its ?180bn projected annual deficit of spending over income. But anyone with remotely progressive leanings must blanch at the tilt of its tax cuts towards the well-off.

The White House says it is increasing spending on another health scheme, Medicare, which helps the elderly to pay for treatment. But there is a good political reason for this, to do not just with the voting power of pensioners but Republican reliance on the hospital industry.

Across many states, public service workers' pay is being frozen, which effectively means cut. You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to link that effect with determination in the White House to shrink yet further the ambit of trade unions, the public sector being the only area showing any growth in union membership. George Bush is not just a Republican, after all, but a convinced neo-liberal. His opposition to "affirmative action" in education is of a piece with a belief that inequality is not just functional for the economy but morally right. Once again, the poor residents of Gilmor Homes and similar areas will pay the price.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1350917 - 03/04/03 07:23 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What do I think?

You cannot justify stealing. You are wrong about this one, Rail Gun.

People starve, life is tough.






My God man...surely you jest...



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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1351172 - 03/04/03 10:00 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

As for social programs being theft, I think under your argument all taxes would be theft.



Actually the purpose of government was to be, regulate interstate commerce, provide for the common defence, and levy tariffs.

This is all they should be allowed to do. The rest was left to the states and to the people.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1351302 - 03/05/03 01:14 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

No, the idea that because social programs are theft all taxes are theft is the fallacy of the excluded middle.

If you read the post closely you would have seen that I supported trash fees from the local government.  I support them because the government can do the job more efficiently and cheaper.  I also support military defense because that is the government protecting me and I am glad to pay for the service, likewise the local police.

Taking my money in the form of taxes to feed the poor or heal the sick is theft as defined by the primary definiton found in the dictionary.

As I said before you may not like that fact but you cannot argue against it and make sense.  No one can.

As I have indicated my entire life has been one of service to those in need.  When the government steals my valuable resources to give them to people I did not choose to have them I have less opportunity to give to the ones I otherwise would have.  And that pisses me off tremendously.  :mad:

Think of this in terms of the young black woman at the store.  But change the facts a little.  Instead of a Thanksgiving Day dinner she is buying only the barest of necessities to keep her family alive.  But this time I have no money to give her and I feel the sympathy you are talking about.  I feel it so great that I whip out my gun and force the guy behind me (who has plenty of money) to pay her bill.

I stole from him to give her sustenance.  That is wrong and no one can justify it.

That is what social programs do.

Cheers, 

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Offlinegrib
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1351307 - 03/05/03 01:17 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

People don't realize, that if the saftey net was eliminated children and the elderly would literally stave to death in America, that things would be far worse.




There was a time of no 'safety nets', when people worked. A time when families took care of their own (as does mine, and many who I know, now). Many today believe that they have a Constitutional right to be taken care of by the government. It's disgusting really. That mentality makes me think of the story of the lazy squirrel who ate and played all summer while the other squirrels gathered nuts so that they would have food during the winter. The only difference is that now there are a lot of fat, lazy squirrels with guns who make you give up your hard earned nuts to lazy squirrels.

Quote:

Taking my money in the form of taxes to feed the poor or heal the sick is theft as defined by the primary definiton found in the dictionary.




You forgot about taking our money to give $2.7 billion annually to Israel (that's direct aid) add another $4bn for money funneled to that country by tax exempt orgs., $1.9 billion to Egypt, etc., etc., etc.


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

Edited by grib (03/05/03 01:34 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1351310 - 03/05/03 01:17 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I never jest about reality.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: grib]
    #1351324 - 03/05/03 01:29 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

People don't realize, that if the saftey net was eliminated children and the elderly would literally stave to death in America, that things would be far worse.




There was a time of no 'safety nets', when people worked. A time when families took care of their own (as does mine, and many who I know, now). Many today believe that they have a Constitutional right to be taken care of by the government. It's disgusting really. That mentality makes me think of the story of the lazy squirrel who ate and played all summer while the other squirrels gathered nuts so that they would have food during the winter. The only difference is that now there are a lot of fat, lazy squirrels with guns who make you give up your hard earned nuts to lazy squirrels.



You must be thinking of the great depression before the new deal. People froze to death on the streets. Children starved while farmers destroyed crops rather than give food away. People suffered. Talk to some people that lived during the depression and ask them how bad it was.

Do you know what a saftey net is? It's to stop people from hitting bottom when they're falling. It's to stop hard working people with small children from being homeless. It's to stop the elderly, blind, and children from freezing to death in the streets when it's frigid outside.

If you'de prefer that the elderly freeze to death homeless and that children starve while you have plenty then let me ask you a question. Why are you so heartless and cruel?


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1351327 - 03/05/03 01:34 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

So you would steal from me to provide for others?

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Offlinegrib
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1351334 - 03/05/03 01:40 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If you'de prefer that the elderly freeze to death homeless and that children starve while you have plenty then let me ask you a question. Why are you so heartless and cruel?




I give cash and clothing each year to charity (but ONLY charities who accept zero money from the government). Do you give or do you rely on the government to give for you? I know I am helping people. If the government didn't take, by threat of violence and prison, my money I could be more generous.

I should be ashamed for being so 'heartless and cruel'


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1351338 - 03/05/03 01:41 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Taxation is not theft.

If you're asking me if I'd steal from you the answer is no.

A catholic priest explained somthing to me once. If you have ten loaves of bread and someone else needs a loaf to feed their children and you refuse them then you stole from them. You kept food out of the mouth a a child. If a mother steals a loaf of bread to feed her child there is no sin because the person that had the loaf would have been stealing if they didn't give it to her.

I'm inclined to agree with the priest on that.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: grib]
    #1351350 - 03/05/03 01:52 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I won't discuss any charitable giving which involves me because I believe it should all be done in secret. That's all I'll say about that.

I'll add on the subject of relief that I think it should be a hand up, not a hand out. If someone is able to work and won't then they should be cut off. If someone is willing to work but can't due to blindness, missing arms, scitzophrenia, or some other serious reason they should be helped at a subsistance level. If children are in those conditions they should be helped as should the elderly. This is charity, love and compassion.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1351531 - 03/05/03 04:11 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Rail_Gun writes:

Taxation is not theft.

Incorrect. Here's a quote from a Conservative humorist, P.J. O'Rourke:

"All tax revenue is the result of holding a gun to somebody's head. Not paying taxes is against the law. If you don't pay your taxes you'll be fined. If you don't pay the fine, you'll be jailed. If you try to escape from jail, you'll be shot. Thus, I - in my role as citizen and voter - am going to shoot you - in your role as taxpayer - if you dont pay your share of the national tab. Therefore, every time the government spends money on anything, you have to ask yourself, 'Would I kill my kindly, gray-haired mother for this?' "

If you're asking me if I'd steal from you the answer is no.

But you would demand that your agent (the government) steal from me. Distancing yourself in that manner does not change the ethical principle involved. Here's P.J. O'Rourke again:

"There is no virtue in compulsory government charity, and there is no virtue in advocating it. A politician who portrays himself as "caring" and "sensitive" because he wants to expand the government's charitable programs is merely saying that he's willing to try to do good with other people's money. Well, who isn't? And a voter who takes pride in supporting such programs is telling us that he'll do good with his own money -- if a gun is held to his head."

A catholic priest explained somthing to me once. If you have ten loaves of bread and someone else needs a loaf to feed their children and you refuse them then you stole from them.

Your Catholic priest has trouble with definitions. If I work my ass off all day at an honest job and use the money I earn to buy ten loaves of bread, I didn't steal those loaves from anyone.

You kept food out of the mouth a a child.

Incorrect. What if I myself have seven children and a wife? Seven out of the ten loaves I have go into the mouths of children.

If a mother steals a loaf of bread to feed her child there is no sin because the person that had the loaf would have been stealing if they didn't give it to her.

Some religions may deem theft under certain circumstances to not be sinful. But to claim that someone who obtained a possession through honest means stole it is just plain wrong, no matter what any given religion may have to say on the topic.

pinky





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Offlinegrib
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Phred]
    #1352129 - 03/05/03 08:25 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

...Conservative humorist, P.J. O'Rourke: 




Actually, he considers himself 'libertarian'. Although libertarians can be conservative I'm making the distinction because 'conservative' is now typically associated with Republicans. Republicans, and without a doubt Democrats, have little in common with P.J. O'Rourke.  :smirk: 


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1352156 - 03/05/03 08:41 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If you have ten loaves of bread and someone else needs a loaf to feed their children and you refuse them then you stole from them.



That's the amongst the stupidest fucking things I've ever heard.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Phred]
    #1352349 - 03/05/03 10:21 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rail_Gun writes:

Taxation is not theft.

Incorrect. Here's a quote from a Conservative humorist, P.J. O'Rourke:




Libertarians hold that taxation is theft. It's an old lie. The founding fathers don't agree as don't the republican or democrat partys. It's a radical notion held mostly by libertarians.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1352536 - 03/05/03 11:48 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Rail_Gun writes:

Libertarians hold that taxation is theft. It's an old lie.

Not a lie at all. If someone takes something from me against my will, I have been robbed, pure and simple. It is theft when done by a single individual acting on his own behalf and it is theft when done by a group of individuals, regardless of how many other individuals approve (or more accurately acquiesce) to the theft.

Income tax is theft. Legalized theft, but theft nonetheless.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1352556 - 03/05/03 11:55 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If you read the post closely you would have seen that I supported trash fees from the local government.



But why is that not stealing? Because you support it? If I take your money and spend it on trash fees, would you feel any better than if I give it to charity?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1352866 - 03/05/03 01:57 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

i totally agree. you left our that conservatives are ignorant(religious) and gullible.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1352920 - 03/05/03 02:22 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I also support military defense because that is the government protecting me and I am glad to pay for the service, likewise the local police.

You seem to believe that these choices, or preferences, apply to everyone. Upon closer inspection, however, your divisions between what is properly the function of government and what is not appear nothing more than personal and arbitrary.

An individual could conceivably argue that he has no need of government military defense because his home is a fortress and he also has a private army armed with the latest weaponry. Why should he be responsible for paying for the protection of everybody else's security and the territorial integrity of the nation in which he lives? That's Collectivism I say! Bad! Bad!

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: 1stimer]
    #1352965 - 03/05/03 03:01 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

And liberals will blindly follow any doctrine that "helps" people regardless of the facts or disadvantages. The left is much more prone to be ruled by its emotions.

I posted above that I would be considered a conservative over a liberal. I am neither religious nor gullible. You, on the other hand, swallow these stereotypes without thinking. That is true gullibility.

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1353561 - 03/06/03 12:00 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

But why is that not stealing? Because you support it? If I take your money and spend it on trash fees, would you feel any better than if I give it to charity?

There are several reasons why it is not stealing. First of all it is individually assessed. You would never be forced to pay for my trash, only your own. The current bill is $6.00 a month I think. They charge you and they charge me the same. Secondly, I gave my permission for that bill and service when I decided to live here. I have the choice of living outside the town and choosing to pay a private company instead of the city.

I was such a stickler for fairness that I tried to institute a "pay-per-bag" system so that the rate was prorated so that you only paid for the trash you threw away. Under the current system the little old lady that throws out 1 bag of trash per week is assessed the same amount as the hillbilly family with 9 kids and throws out 17 bags of trash per week. So, in a sense, she is subsidizing the hillbilly family on her fixed income. That is unfair. But it isn't stealing for the same reasons I gave above.

1. She chose to live here.
2. She pays for her trash to be hauled away.
3. She would have to pay someone whether it was the local goverment or a private trash hauler that would charge her double.

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1353626 - 03/06/03 01:05 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

You seem to believe that these choices, or preferences, apply to everyone. Upon closer inspection, however, your divisions between what is properly the function of government and what is not appear nothing more than personal and arbitrary.

An individual could conceivably argue that he has no need of government military defense because his home is a fortress and he also has a private army armed with the latest weaponry. Why should he be responsible for paying for the protection of everybody else's security and the territorial integrity of the nation in which he lives? That's Collectivism I say! Bad! Bad!


There are at least two issues here. The first is the fact that according to the document quoted below I have give tacit approval for the collective to protect me. "Provide for the common defence." While the United States Constitution may seem like an arbitrarily conceived document to you that statement is mere rhetorical legerdemain. The same is true of the local constabulary which is written into our city charter.

Please show me the provisions in the Constitution of the United States or our City Charter which gives either government the right to take my money by means of taxes and redistribute it to those who need food, clothing, shelter, or health care.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Your example of a person's private army or defense is an error in logic. As they say, "Hard cases make bad law." It is really an example of the fallacy of secundum quid. You want to make all taxes theft because taxes that are approved by the legislature without a provision in the Constitution, i.e. welfare, health care, etc ad nauseum ad infinitum, the same as taxes with provisions in the Constitution.

So sorry, it doesn't wash.

There have been a plethora of logical fallacies committed during this argument but none are convincing to those with a few critical thinking skills or ability to reason.

We started out with argumentum ad misericordiam (appeal to pity) because the poor helpless souls were elderly and children who were starving. Then we moved swiftly in the same breath to the classic argumentum ad hominem painting those who would disagree with the premise as heartless and cruel. Proceeded to argumentum ad populum (appeal to popular opinion) because everybody knows that we "ought to" feed those who are starving (even if it means stealing from someone else). We even managed to dredge up a fallacy of equivocation and try to redefine what theft was by calling withholding food which is rightfully ours theft if not given to another.

At the end of the day our case is still clear for those capable of reason. Valid logical arguments that constitute proofs or disproofs are intellectually convincing. Rhetorical arguments, if effective, are persuasive, emotionally or intellectually, but never convincing.

Unlike some of the respondents here I do not banter for long with those who cannot understand the premises involved or the reason used to arrive at the proper conclusion. Therefore I have posted my last post in this thread on this argument.

Good day.


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1353660 - 03/06/03 01:39 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You would never be forced to pay for my trash, only your own.




Really? I pay for city trash service yet the city makes our HOA pay a private company for trash pick up. Aren't I forced to pay for others trash? What about schools? I went to a private school, yet my parents paid taxes (property tax) to support public schools; shouldn't they have been exempt? We pay taxes for public schools (and they just went up 30%!), our son goes to private school. What about childless people (not to mention people who, for various reasons, can't have children)? They pay tax for schools yet they have no children.



--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1354035 - 03/06/03 05:22 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

taxes are theft. when the government comes to take my money, under threat of force, that is wrong. no, it isn't theft... they are merely forcing me to buy something i don't want. it's extortion. whether they do it in the name of fighting poverty (supporting poverty, heh), or building a strong military, it's still wrong.

as to why conservatives are so "cruel"... nature is cruel.. life is cruel. some people starve, some people die. it's just what happens. when there's a lion on the savanna who can't find enough food, do the other lions help him out? no. and that's how and why nature works. differential survivorship. it is natural, and necessary, for some to starve, or die from disease. maybe it's cruel, but that's life.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1354346 - 03/06/03 07:23 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

when there's a lion on the savanna who can't find enough food, do the other lions help him out? no.

Actually...yeah. They live in prides and when any member of the group makes a kill they all get to eat.

I suppose a conservative lion would stand over the kill saying "I am the only one who deserves to eat because I got up at 5.30am to hunt this wildebeast unlike you libbie layabouts.."


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1354349 - 03/06/03 07:24 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

you know what i mean.

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1354640 - 03/06/03 09:12 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

And you, my dear Mr. Mushrooms, make the classic argumentum ad verecundiam fallacy of appeal to authority. Why, in principle , is it correct to take money forcibly for collective defense but not for other purposes? Saying "because it says so in the Constitution" is tantamount to saying "because a few dozen politicians at a particularly important and privileged time in history agreed it should be so." That, my friend, does not wash at all.

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