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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1241145 - 01/22/03 09:46 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks Fiend. I'm amazed at how much conservatives and liberals actually agree with one another once they get to talking. For example, I don't think there's a liberal on these boards that agrees with pink's statement that "the successful have no inherent right to their own property".


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1241151 - 01/22/03 09:48 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Your typical liberal wouldn't mind if a few lazy jerks got a free ride as long as 10 people who genuinely needed help got it.
Your typical conservative wouldn't mind if a few people in genuine need went hungry, as long as no lazy bums were getting free lunch.



I agree with your statement about liberals. I would guess that conservatives will argue with you on your second point. We'll see (I think conservatives would say they're not that heartless - if I'm right, this is exactly the type of misunderstanding I was talking about)


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (01/22/03 10:01 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241209 - 01/22/03 10:13 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

GoBlue writes:

I don't think there's a liberal on these boards that agrees with pink's statement that "the successful have no inherent right to their own property".

Then you're mistaken. Plenty of Liberals and Lefties on this board express (repeatedly) exactly that point of view. Most are careful never to phrase it in exactly those words, but there is no doubt that is exactly what underlying principle they believe in: the successful have no right to what's theirs because and ONLY because they ARE successful. Their only crime is not being needy. Conversely, the needy have EVERY right to the property of others, not because they have done anything to earn it, but simply because they are unable (or in some cases unwilling) to support themselves.

Just where do you think the money comes from to fund welfare and other "social programs" ostensibly enacted to assist the unfortunate? Does it not come from taxes? Do the successful pay far more in taxes (Hint: IRS figures show that 96% of America's income taxes are collected from the wealthiest 50% of Americans) than the unfortunate? Are taxes to fund social programs donations or are they extorted from individuals through the threat of force?

This is why I said that many people don't examine underlying principles. The underlying principle of government-mandated "social programs" is not "helping others", because "helping" is VOLUNTARY. The underlying principle is that people have no inherent RIGHT to keep what is theirs if enough other people decide that their stuff can be put to "better use" in the hands of others, be it those in charge of helping the poor or those in charge of helping the disabled or the mentally challenged or the homeless or the children in Ethiopia.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (01/22/03 10:15 PM)


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OfflineDilauded
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Registered: 10/29/02
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241218 - 01/22/03 10:16 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

It all goes back to Independence Day. A reason that America wanted to escape Britain b/c of the overly taxation w/out representation and that it shouldn't take orders from someone an ocean away. The Monarchy is like a dictatorship and Communism in a way.

My point being, there's Federalists and there Anti-Federalists. Feds wanted more constitution and Anti wanted less constitution. More government, less government. Democrats, Republicans. Democrats need the people to be dependant on the way they run government in order to be successful. Giving more money to the poor and favoring the minorities. If you keep giving these poor people more and more money then why should they work if the government is giving them such a helping hand. All while the Republicans or the owners of businesses who've worked their ass off for YEARS to have to pay outrageous taxes to support none other than the poor. Dems want more social security and more welfare... WHAT THE FUCK, ISN'T IT HIGH ENOUGH? Does anybody see what I mean by Democrat's success is based on how much the people rely on the government?

To me, the group Liberal/Democrat call it what you claim are both just nicer ways of saying Communist/Socialism. I heard Clinton talk, a couple months ago, about how they're going to be called Progressives and will take on America in a progressive way. Hmmm, Progressives... Sounds like a nicer name than Democrat. And even better that Clinton, the most trust-worth guy on Earth, is giving the speech. But now with the new Democratic nominees running for President, I don't see anyone running under Progressive. But Democrats are sneaky, I don't even know what to believe when I hear one talk. And to hear a debate with a Dem and a Rep, the Dem sounds like a baby who just throws mud when he/she can't think of anything relevant to say.

Power,
Dilauded


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241261 - 01/22/03 10:35 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"Most are careful never to phrase it in exactly those words, but there is no doubt that is exactly what underlying principle they believe in"

There's the misunderstanding again.

I can (and will) make an argument that conservatives (at least in America) are always trying to beef up military spending.  Just where do you think the money comes from to fund defense and other "security" programs ostensibly enacted to assist the big corporations?  Does it not come from our taxes?

The underlying principle is that people have no inherent RIGHT to keep what is theirs if enough other people decide that their stuff can be put to "better use" in the hands of others, be it those in charge of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines.  :wink: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241294 - 01/22/03 10:52 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

GoBlue writes:

Just where do you think the money comes from to fund defense and other "security" programs ostensibly enacted to assist the big corporations? Does it not come from our taxes?

Three points:

1) Liberals ALSO believe it is correct for the government to protect its citizens from those who would initiate force or fraud against them. I know of no Liberal who seriously believes the US should disband its miltary, fire all its police, close all courtrooms and demolish all prisons.

2) Without such impartial organs of government available to all (cops, courts, military), EVERYONE'S property is vulnerable to seizure by the first thug or gang of thugs who happens by to seize it. It's tough to give to charity when all your stuff has been stolen either by the Mob or by a foreign invader.

3) If the functions of government were restricted to those explicitly allowed by the Constitution, taxes would be a small fraction of what they are today. Some argue that it is not impossible to fund such levels of government through non-coercive means (but that is enough of a tangent that it should be addressed in a separate thread).

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: ]
    #1241309 - 01/22/03 11:08 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Your typical liberal wouldn't mind if a few lazy jerks got a free ride as long as 10 people who genuinely needed help got it.
Your typical conservative wouldn't mind if a few people in genuine need went hungry, as long as no lazy bums were getting free lunch.



I couldn't have said it better myself.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Dilauded]
    #1241310 - 01/22/03 11:10 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

A reason that America wanted to escape Britain b/c of the overly taxation w/out representation



Then the rich have nothing to complain about, because they are represented in the political leadership far more than the marginalized poor.
Quote:

If you keep giving these poor people more and more money then why should they work if the government is giving them such a helping hand.



Actually, in most cases welfare is only a temporary circumstance for people trying to get back on their feet. Most people do not stay on welfare indefinitely.
Quote:

To me, the group Liberal/Democrat call it what you claim are both just nicer ways of saying Communist/Socialism.



To some extent, yes, but Communism/Socialism are more extremes of liberalism. I consider myself to be either an extreme liberal or a moderate Socialist, and frankly, I don't consider that word to have any negative connotation. Communism shouldn't necessarily have a negative connotation either, since Karl Marx was certainly an intelligent, thoughtful man, although I personally happen to disagree with many of his ideas, and do not believe Communism could work in the real world.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (01/22/03 11:19 PM)


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241341 - 01/22/03 11:43 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I think it's also fair to say that many conservatives are also in support of limited social programs to assist the retarded, handicapped, single mothers with infants, etc as well.  These programs would also help prevent people from stealing in order to survive.  Here's what's more important.  The following chart shows a history of the Federal deficit:



This chart shows that the first major budget defecit occured under Ford in 1974 (Republican).  Then it went back down again in 1976 under Carter (Democrat).  Then it went back up in a major way in 1980 under Reagan (Republican).  It went up to its furthest under Bush (Republican).  Finally, there was a huge budget surplus beginning in 1997 under Clinton (Democrat). 

What's up with republicans always spending more than they have?  Because of Republicans, I'm now paying taxes to cover $42 billion a year in interest on debt that Republicans have created.  And you have the nerve to say Republicans are against taxes???  :smirk:

Edit:  If there's any Republicans who think Democrats like paying taxes, then that's yet another stupid misunderstanding.  We simply believe that taxes should match spending.  And for the record, Democrats don't spend any more than Republicans.  That's a total myth.  Spending has increased fairly linearly through time, with Clinton being the one exception.  He significantly decreased Government spending, and he was a DEMOCRAT.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (01/23/03 12:25 AM)


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OfflineDilauded
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Registered: 10/29/02
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1241400 - 01/23/03 01:02 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Then the rich have nothing to complain about, because they are represented in the political leadership far more than the marginalized poor.



There's the rich and the poor make the rich. Can't have one without the other, its part of life.

Quote:

Actually, in most cases welfare is only a temporary circumstance for people trying to get back on their feet. Most people do not stay on welfare indefinitely.




Correct, but welfare doesn't need to be funded so much.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241433 - 01/23/03 02:06 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting chart. However, we aren't talking of Democrats and Republicans, we are talking of Liberals and Conservatives. Few American Republican politicians are Conservatives, they're just less liberal than the Democrats. But, even if we ARE talking of Democrats and Republicans, to blame a president for deficits is naive, whether the president is Republican or Democrat. The budget is decided by congress, not by the executive office. Try matching that chart to the composition of the House and Senate if you want a more accurate picture.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241443 - 01/23/03 02:19 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I would definitely argue that most Republicans are conservative.

And the budget is proposed by the president. Sure, Congress has to approve it, but the president's proposal pretty much dictates the budgeting effort.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241454 - 01/23/03 02:34 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I would definitely argue that most Republicans are conservative.

It depends on what one considers "conservative", doesn't it? The Republicans of today would be considered flaming pinkos by the Republicans of the Eisenhower era.

Sure, Congress has to approve it, but the president's proposal pretty much dictates the budgeting effort.

Sorry, I was unclear. There is more to a deficit than just a budget. Congress institutes new programs and modifies old ones year round, budget or no budget. And if you think that a Democratic Congress rubber stamps a Republican presidential budget unchanged (or vice versa) you are mistaken.

Another big reason for the surplus under Clinton was due to the fact that the Congress was Republican dominated, and shot down several proposals of the Clintonites which would have wiped out the surplus and then some. What do you think Hillary's health plan would have cost?

Secondly, Clinton had the good luck of dealing with basically the first eight years after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War. A large part of the surplus was due to his gutting of the military and the intelligence community.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241466 - 01/23/03 02:53 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Personally I think you underestimate the power of the president. But since we probably won't agree on that, I still believe that Democrats try to match taxes with spending, while Republicans attempt to cut taxes below the spending levels, driving us into more debt (and ultimately forcing us to pay more taxes as interest on that debt).


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241488 - 01/23/03 03:18 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

And here's a very important point. Whether the President is Republican or Democrat, and whether the Congress is Republican or Democrat, that doesn't seem to matter with respect to overall spending. Spending has been increasing very linearly over time, and with the exception of Bill Clinton's presidency, there have been no significant deviations from this trend, which implies that no matter who you want to credit (blame) for the budget, both parties ultimate end up spending essentially the same amount.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241491 - 01/23/03 03:23 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I still believe that Democrats try to match taxes with spending, while Republicans attempt to cut taxes below the spending levels, driving us into more debt...

Which is exactly why I said forget about Democrats and Republicans and concentrate on Liberals and Conservatives, which is, after all, the title of the thread. My motive for entering this thread was to offer a more accurate characterization of Liberals and Conservatives than the one Phluck offered.

There are conservatives in this forum who have recently admitted to occasionally voting for Democrats, and liberals who have occasionally voted Republican (although less often). But to a true Conservative, American Republican politicians are far from conservative. I presume that to a true Liberal, American Democrat politicians are far from liberal.

I still say it is accurate to say that Liberals believe the ends (giving stuff to the unfortunate) justify the means (taking the stuff to be given from peaceful individuals) while Conservatives believe that the ends DO NOT justify the means.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1241500 - 01/23/03 03:28 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

And here's a very important point. Whether the President is Republican or Democrat, and whether the Congress is Republican or Democrat, that doesn't seem to matter with respect to overall spending.

Correct. And where is most of that increase in spending going? If it's not going towards the legitimate function of government (the protection of the people through cops, courts, and military), then I as a Conservative oppose it, whether an "improved" government "service" is tabled in Congress by a Democrat or a Republican.

pinky


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1241514 - 01/23/03 03:44 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, I guess if most Republicans aren't very conservative, and most Democrats aren't very liberal, which I believe is your argument, then I guess I'll agree with you. I've always considered a liberal to be a Democrat and a conservative to be a Republican, but you're probably right in saying most politicians are somewhere in between.


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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1242778 - 01/23/03 12:56 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think it's also fair to say that many conservatives are also in support of limited social programs to assist the retarded, handicapped, single mothers with infants, etc as well. These programs would also help prevent people from stealing in order to survive. Here's what's more important. The following chart shows a history of the Federal deficit:






There's already enough money in programs to help the handicapped, single mothers, and what have you not. They get enough to be comfortable where they are. People will steal no matter what. I know a kid whose dad is a rich as fuck and the kid steals anything he likes. This kleptomania will never stop, so what if you give em more to support them, they'll still steal. The Republicans make it so you're have a better chance of getting a job and have more of your paycheck. Isn't that giving more money? You don't need rediculously high taxes to fund these things that much. That's what private organizations are for like the make a dream come true or Unicef and charities. And the deficit, the Republican way of reducing taxes won't work immediately unlike taxing 39% of your income like Clinton did. It'll take time, with less taxes there's more jobs and with more jobs there's more money being circulated and with that more money being circulated and more jobs there will be more taxes collected. Its all a matter of time. Taxes are an obstacle in the economy and the less taxes there are then the easier it will be for more money to be made. Does this make sense to you?


This is what I think b/c of first hand experience and common sense,
Dilauded


Edited by Dilauded (01/23/03 01:04 PM)


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OfflineDilauded
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Re: Liberals suck. So do conservatives. [Re: Phred]
    #1242795 - 01/23/03 01:02 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

A large part of the surplus was due to his gutting of the military and the intelligence community.




Shit that that pisses me off. Its because of this that a Chinese spy got the secrets for a nuke. That gutting closed America's eyes and made us vulnerable and weak as far as knowing our country and other countries.

Fuck Clinton,
Dilauded


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