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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1350329 -

I finally got around to reading that long post. I think I need to correct myself here. When I said "guilt," what I should have said was sympathy. For the record, I didn't say conservatives are heartless and cruel. They just have a different set of values.

As for social programs being theft, I think under your argument all taxes would be theft. If you believe that we as a society can function without taxes, then fine. But otherwise, I fail to see why it's theft if your taxes go to someone else, but not if it goes toward buying the military a new Stealth Bomber.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (03/04/03 02:15 PM)

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1350355 -

Someone already noted the definition of a conservative vs. a liberal. Basically a conservative is against change. Today's liberals may be tomorrow's conservatives. But there are also several different kinds of conservatives (examples from America):

We have economical conservatives, who agree with the status quo of the American economic system. They believe in free enterprise and capitalism, lacking interference from the government, as well as welfare reform.

Also, there are social conservatives. These conservatives lean more towards accepting the status quo of yesteryear - abortions are illegal, as are drugs, and football is an all-American sport. You know the type.

Finally, we have political conservatives. These people believe in the Constitution and just law. There are places where political conservatives' interests overlap social conservatives, and even interfere with them. However, by and large, political conservatives deal more with issues such as gun ownership, torte reform and the two-party system, and general issues aimed at keeping the government small.

There are some conservatives who are conservative all the way through, but many, if not most "conservatives" fall under only one or two of these categories. I am an economical and political conservative, but a social liberal. So am I conservative? In the broad scheme, when classifying two groups for a debate, I'll generally be on the right. But as far as I'm concerned, I'm a Libertarian.

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1350669 -

DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHY HITLER HAD A HARD ON FOR JEWS. AFTER ALL HE WAS A HALF JEW HIMSELF?

No he wasn't "half jewish". The story you're inaccurately talking about is the one about whether his grandfather might have been a jew. And even if he was that doesn't make him "half-jewish". If you're talking about being "fucking ignorant" perhaps you should look at yourself.

VERY FEW CONSERVATIVES don't support HELPING those in NEED.

Depends on how you define need doesn't it.

From a February article in the guardian:

This week, as President Bush presents his latest budget, half of American cities report that they can no longer provide an "adequate quantity" of food to those applying for emergency help. Yet demand for hunger relief on the streets of urban America is rising - the number of free meals served in Kansas City last year went up to 3m. According to the US conference of mayors, 48% of the hungry are from families with children.

For America's poor (many of whom are in work but paid below subsistence level) things can only get worse. Last week I visited a Rockefeller Foundation jobs project in Gilmor Homes, a 570-unit public housing project in Baltimore. It is trying to improve job prospects for residents. But US unemployment is now 6%, and rising. Hope VI, a federal subsidy for revitalising and demolishing city housing - Baltimore, with 250,000 more dwellings than households, certainly needs it - is now being abolished by President Bush.

Because the Republicans control Congress, Bush's budget will go through. A Keynesian might have no trouble with its ?180bn projected annual deficit of spending over income. But anyone with remotely progressive leanings must blanch at the tilt of its tax cuts towards the well-off.

The White House says it is increasing spending on another health scheme, Medicare, which helps the elderly to pay for treatment. But there is a good political reason for this, to do not just with the voting power of pensioners but Republican reliance on the hospital industry.

Across many states, public service workers' pay is being frozen, which effectively means cut. You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to link that effect with determination in the White House to shrink yet further the ambit of trade unions, the public sector being the only area showing any growth in union membership. George Bush is not just a Republican, after all, but a convinced neo-liberal. His opposition to "affirmative action" in education is of a piece with a belief that inequality is not just functional for the economy but morally right. Once again, the poor residents of Gilmor Homes and similar areas will pay the price.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1350917 -

Quote:
What do I think?

You cannot justify stealing. You are wrong about this one, Rail Gun.

People starve, life is tough.





My God man...surely you jest...



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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1351172 -

Quote:
As for social programs being theft, I think under your argument all taxes would be theft.


Actually the purpose of government was to be, regulate interstate commerce, provide for the common defence, and levy tariffs.

This is all they should be allowed to do. The rest was left to the states and to the people.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1351302 -

No, the idea that because social programs are theft all taxes are theft is the fallacy of the excluded middle.

If you read the post closely you would have seen that I supported trash fees from the local government.  I support them because the government can do the job more efficiently and cheaper.  I also support military defense because that is the government protecting me and I am glad to pay for the service, likewise the local police.

Taking my money in the form of taxes to feed the poor or heal the sick is theft as defined by the primary definiton found in the dictionary.

As I said before you may not like that fact but you cannot argue against it and make sense.  No one can.

As I have indicated my entire life has been one of service to those in need.  When the government steals my valuable resources to give them to people I did not choose to have them I have less opportunity to give to the ones I otherwise would have.  And that pisses me off tremendously.  :mad:

Think of this in terms of the young black woman at the store.  But change the facts a little.  Instead of a Thanksgiving Day dinner she is buying only the barest of necessities to keep her family alive.  But this time I have no money to give her and I feel the sympathy you are talking about.  I feel it so great that I whip out my gun and force the guy behind me (who has plenty of money) to pay her bill.

I stole from him to give her sustenance.  That is wrong and no one can justify it.

That is what social programs do.

Cheers, 

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1351307 -

Quote:
People don't realize, that if the saftey net was eliminated children and the elderly would literally stave to death in America, that things would be far worse.



There was a time of no 'safety nets', when people worked. A time when families took care of their own (as does mine, and many who I know, now). Many today believe that they have a Constitutional right to be taken care of by the government. It's disgusting really. That mentality makes me think of the story of the lazy squirrel who ate and played all summer while the other squirrels gathered nuts so that they would have food during the winter. The only difference is that now there are a lot of fat, lazy squirrels with guns who make you give up your hard earned nuts to lazy squirrels.

Quote:
Taking my money in the form of taxes to feed the poor or heal the sick is theft as defined by the primary definiton found in the dictionary.



You forgot about taking our money to give $2.7 billion annually to Israel (that's direct aid) add another $4bn for money funneled to that country by tax exempt orgs., $1.9 billion to Egypt, etc., etc., etc.


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

Edited by grib (03/05/03 01:34 AM)

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1351310 -

I never jest about reality.

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: grib]
    #1351324 -

Quote:
Quote:
People don't realize, that if the saftey net was eliminated children and the elderly would literally stave to death in America, that things would be far worse.


There was a time of no 'safety nets', when people worked. A time when families took care of their own (as does mine, and many who I know, now). Many today believe that they have a Constitutional right to be taken care of by the government. It's disgusting really. That mentality makes me think of the story of the lazy squirrel who ate and played all summer while the other squirrels gathered nuts so that they would have food during the winter. The only difference is that now there are a lot of fat, lazy squirrels with guns who make you give up your hard earned nuts to lazy squirrels.


You must be thinking of the great depression before the new deal. People froze to death on the streets. Children starved while farmers destroyed crops rather than give food away. People suffered. Talk to some people that lived during the depression and ask them how bad it was.

Do you know what a saftey net is? It's to stop people from hitting bottom when they're falling. It's to stop hard working people with small children from being homeless. It's to stop the elderly, blind, and children from freezing to death in the streets when it's frigid outside.

If you'de prefer that the elderly freeze to death homeless and that children starve while you have plenty then let me ask you a question. Why are you so heartless and cruel?


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1351327 -

So you would steal from me to provide for others?

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1351334 -

Quote:
If you'de prefer that the elderly freeze to death homeless and that children starve while you have plenty then let me ask you a question. Why are you so heartless and cruel?



I give cash and clothing each year to charity (but ONLY charities who accept zero money from the government). Do you give or do you rely on the government to give for you? I know I am helping people. If the government didn't take, by threat of violence and prison, my money I could be more generous.

I should be ashamed for being so 'heartless and cruel'


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1351338 -

Taxation is not theft.

If you're asking me if I'd steal from you the answer is no.

A catholic priest explained somthing to me once. If you have ten loaves of bread and someone else needs a loaf to feed their children and you refuse them then you stole from them. You kept food out of the mouth a a child. If a mother steals a loaf of bread to feed her child there is no sin because the person that had the loaf would have been stealing if they didn't give it to her.

I'm inclined to agree with the priest on that.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: grib]
    #1351350 -

I won't discuss any charitable giving which involves me because I believe it should all be done in secret. That's all I'll say about that.

I'll add on the subject of relief that I think it should be a hand up, not a hand out. If someone is able to work and won't then they should be cut off. If someone is willing to work but can't due to blindness, missing arms, scitzophrenia, or some other serious reason they should be helped at a subsistance level. If children are in those conditions they should be helped as should the elderly. This is charity, love and compassion.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1351531 -

Rail_Gun writes:

Taxation is not theft.

Incorrect. Here's a quote from a Conservative humorist, P.J. O'Rourke:

"All tax revenue is the result of holding a gun to somebody's head. Not paying taxes is against the law. If you don't pay your taxes you'll be fined. If you don't pay the fine, you'll be jailed. If you try to escape from jail, you'll be shot. Thus, I - in my role as citizen and voter - am going to shoot you - in your role as taxpayer - if you dont pay your share of the national tab. Therefore, every time the government spends money on anything, you have to ask yourself, 'Would I kill my kindly, gray-haired mother for this?' "

If you're asking me if I'd steal from you the answer is no.

But you would demand that your agent (the government) steal from me. Distancing yourself in that manner does not change the ethical principle involved. Here's P.J. O'Rourke again:

"There is no virtue in compulsory government charity, and there is no virtue in advocating it. A politician who portrays himself as "caring" and "sensitive" because he wants to expand the government's charitable programs is merely saying that he's willing to try to do good with other people's money. Well, who isn't? And a voter who takes pride in supporting such programs is telling us that he'll do good with his own money -- if a gun is held to his head."

A catholic priest explained somthing to me once. If you have ten loaves of bread and someone else needs a loaf to feed their children and you refuse them then you stole from them.

Your Catholic priest has trouble with definitions. If I work my ass off all day at an honest job and use the money I earn to buy ten loaves of bread, I didn't steal those loaves from anyone.

You kept food out of the mouth a a child.

Incorrect. What if I myself have seven children and a wife? Seven out of the ten loaves I have go into the mouths of children.

If a mother steals a loaf of bread to feed her child there is no sin because the person that had the loaf would have been stealing if they didn't give it to her.

Some religions may deem theft under certain circumstances to not be sinful. But to claim that someone who obtained a possession through honest means stole it is just plain wrong, no matter what any given religion may have to say on the topic.

pinky





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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Phred]
    #1352129 -

Quote:
...Conservative humorist, P.J. O'Rourke: 



Actually, he considers himself 'libertarian'. Although libertarians can be conservative I'm making the distinction because 'conservative' is now typically associated with Republicans. Republicans, and without a doubt Democrats, have little in common with P.J. O'Rourke.  :smirk: 


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1352156 -

Quote:
If you have ten loaves of bread and someone else needs a loaf to feed their children and you refuse them then you stole from them.


That's the amongst the stupidest fucking things I've ever heard.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Phred]
    #1352349 -

Quote:
Rail_Gun writes:

Taxation is not theft.

Incorrect. Here's a quote from a Conservative humorist, P.J. O'Rourke:



Libertarians hold that taxation is theft. It's an old lie. The founding fathers don't agree as don't the republican or democrat partys. It's a radical notion held mostly by libertarians.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1352536 -

Rail_Gun writes:

Libertarians hold that taxation is theft. It's an old lie.

Not a lie at all. If someone takes something from me against my will, I have been robbed, pure and simple. It is theft when done by a single individual acting on his own behalf and it is theft when done by a group of individuals, regardless of how many other individuals approve (or more accurately acquiesce) to the theft.

Income tax is theft. Legalized theft, but theft nonetheless.

pinky


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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: ]
    #1352556 -

Quote:
If you read the post closely you would have seen that I supported trash fees from the local government.


But why is that not stealing? Because you support it? If I take your money and spend it on trash fees, would you feel any better than if I give it to charity?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1352866 -

i totally agree. you left our that conservatives are ignorant(religious) and gullible.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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