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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Malachi]
    #1735864 - 07/21/03 05:19 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Malachi writes:

because that's what welfare is, right?

Yes, that's exactly what welfare (as opposed to charity) is -- government taking by force stuff (normally currency) from people and giving it (minus the government rakeoff) to others.

it's not how long ago they lived, it's that our system of gov't and economics are based on their philosophies...

You are of course aware that "conservative" and "liberal" today mean exactly the opposite of what they did in pre-revolutionary times, right? That's why I was careful to use the term "Classical Liberal" and to specifically refer to the Enlightenment. Those commonly referred to as "conservatives" today are those who stick most closely to the principles espoused in the US Constitution and Bill of Rights (which were of course written by "Classical Liberals"). Conversely, those commonly referred to as "liberals" today are those who endorse socialist ideals to varying degrees.

...hence a "traditionalist" or "conservative" ought to be defending liberalism.

And, as a Laissez-faire Capitalist, I do defend Classical Liberalism. I don't defend Ted Kennedy Hillary Clinton liberalism.

read wealth of nations...

I have read Smith (including of course "Wealth of Nations") -- have you? Or have you just read your professor's interpretation of what he believes Smith was really trying to say? I have also read Locke and Bastiat and the Federalist Papers and many others. I admit I probably haven't read every single word Smith wrote, or Locke or Bastiat either, but I have read their major works. For the record, I believe Smith got a few things wrong that later theorists and philosophers addressed more completely. At any rate, I am quite sure I would have remembered any of them advocating forcible redistribution of wealth. Until you can provide me a source showing they did so, I will say that your claim is incorrect.

Naturally, if you prove my recollection to be faulty, I will apologize profusely.

pinky


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OfflineBhairabas
Stranger

Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 889
Loc: Toronto Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: Phred]
    #1735928 - 07/21/03 05:47 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I think the whole concept of their being a right and left is flawed.. You can have leftwing politician who leans heavily to the right or a right wing who leans heavily to the left.. It really distracts us from the real social problems we are facing.. It seems like evryone wants to be told where they stand on the political spectrum and put in there category so they don't feel left out..

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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: real conservatives vote democrat. [Re: ]
    #1736557 - 07/21/03 09:52 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

ok mushmaster, I already posted this link.


"He regarded himself as a moralist more than he considered himself an economist. His project was designed to advance individual liberty while still ensuring that society provided the structure and tools which allowed its citizens to remain unified and virtuous" - quote from a philosophy journal my prof wrote an article for.

of these tools education is the most important to smith, (sorry, you'll have to do some research of your own if you want to actually argue with me like an academic...) but basic human needs (clothing, shelter, etc) are also required to keep people virtuous and unified.

man, don't talk to me about volunteering. I worked 5 hours today working on a habitat for humanity project, and you know what? half of the shit I had to do was clean up vandalism and beer cans that the neighbors threw on the lawn. people in america do not understand the first thing about the good life, and yet you greedy neo cons would have the world rely on charity. social responsibility? pfft, who needs it?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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