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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19737332 -

Smokey420 said:
so let me get this straight, we don't need environmental protection because we have the right to sue? How exactly does that prevent environmental disasters from happening?


Do you know nothing about behavior theory.  If you severely and consistently punish a behavior you can extinguish it.  Get an education.


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19737336 -

I don't shop at Walmart and what are the tort courts like in Bangladesh?


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19737383 -

I have an education, masters in political science and a minor in philosophy.

Behavior theory is a bunch of bullshit, Walmart isn't going to stop buying cheap cloths from Bangladesh, because there will always be uneducated Americans who want to buy cheap shit.


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Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19737416 -

Smokey420 said:
I have an education, masters in political science and a minor in philosophy.

Behavior theory is a bunch of bullshit, Walmart isn't going to stop buying cheap cloths from Bangladesh, because there will always be uneducated Americans who want to buy cheap shit.


If behavior theory is bullshit why do lotteries and casinos thrive even though the most cursory of analyses, which are well known, says you have to be a moron to use them?

A masters in bullshit and a minor in lesser bullshit.  What does it have to do with WalMart?  Nothing.  And what does the pay level of a Bangladeshi worker have to do with what we were discussing, which was redress for damages from environmental irresponsibility.  ?


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19737586 -

Smokey420 said:
What about food safety and environment protection? No doubt that there are environmentally friendly companies, but who is going to stop the bad apples from polluting rivers and dumping toxic waste?


I believe in environmental protections to an extent, is it more practical for a small amount of regulation regarding air pollution than for the market to solve the problem. Food safety i have an issue with, as it tends to favor big agro business while smashing the small guy.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19738023 -

Trust me Zappa, I know my education doesn't mean shit better then most, it's why I'm working at a steel mill, with allot of student debt.
But I'm not the uneducated ghetto black guy you seem to stereotype me as.
What education do you have again?


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19738212 -

psyconaught said:
Smokey420 said:
What about food safety and environment protection? No doubt that there are environmentally friendly companies, but who is going to stop the bad apples from polluting rivers and dumping toxic waste?


I believe in environmental protections to an extent, is it more practical for a small amount of regulation regarding air pollution than for the market to solve the problem. Food safety i have an issue with, as it tends to favor big agro business while smashing the small guy.


You're right, within the current system the FDA favors big corporations like Monsanto. But the idea of regulating the food business is very important, people can die from  food poisoning.
I don't agree with stupid shit like limiting drink sizes, but there does need to be some regulation.


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19738239 -

Smokey420 said:
psyconaught said:
Smokey420 said:
What about food safety and environment protection? No doubt that there are environmentally friendly companies, but who is going to stop the bad apples from polluting rivers and dumping toxic waste?


I believe in environmental protections to an extent, is it more practical for a small amount of regulation regarding air pollution than for the market to solve the problem. Food safety i have an issue with, as it tends to favor big agro business while smashing the small guy.


You're right, within the current system the FDA favors big corporations like Monsanto. But the idea of regulating the food business is very important, people can die from  food poisoning.
I don't agree with stupid shit like limiting drink sizes, but there does need to be some regulation.


i'd be more apt to argue for a more free market solution. Similar to the "Non-GMO Project" product verification. But an overall food safety standards organization.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19738306 -

That sounds allot more reasonable then nothing at all.


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19738314 -

Even if the FDA was abolished tomorrow there would still be something. I guarantee someone would fill that niche, and companies would be climbing over themselves to get that seal because consumers would know to look for it.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19738742 -

I wouldn't be so optimistic considering the current state of things. But I agree its possible.


--------------------
Workers of Shroomery Unite!

Warning: Everything I say is possibly a work of fiction.
Fuck you NSA

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19738756 -

if theres a market niche that needs filled it will be. Theres private organic labels, gluten free labels, GMO free labels, etc. If the FDA wasn't there I'm positive there would be some sort of general safety label.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19739792 -

zappaisgod said:
EntheogenicJourney said:
Quote:
Without increased production living standards must decline.



Not necessarily.  The native people who live/lived off the land seem to be quite happy until greedy Europeans/Americans come in and fuck it all up.


They did?  Constant warfare, slavery, famine, subsidence living, average lifespan of under 30
Quote:
The fact of the matter is that TODAY there are a GREATER NUMBER of people dealing with these problems than ever before in history.  We are just the lucky ones.

How much slavery was there before the industrial revolution?  Surely some but not in the large scale we saw in US all driven by the demand for more production at any cost and by no means has slavery disappeared as a result of our industrial society.

There are more people today living in horrible conditions than even existed on the planet for all but the last barely 1% of human existance.

The industrial revolution is but a blip on the radar of our survival as a species and if this experiment (which is what it really is) isn't mitigated somehow it could be the end of us.  The would will keep turning and the sun will keep rising just without us.

For almost all of our existence as a species we have lived off what the earth provided remaining withing the boundaries of sustainability

Communism will not solve our problems.  Individuals must wake up.

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19739837 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
EntheogenicJourney said:

Without increased production living standards must decline.



Not necessarily.  The native people who live/lived off the land seem to be quite happy until greedy Europeans/Americans come in and fuck it all up.

Our real problem is overproduction (and overpopulation) on a global scale.  We are running out of resources and destroying the planet at an alarming rate.

I'm not saying communism is the answer because its not but without regulations we wouldn't even be able to breath the air it would be so polluted.  As it is we can hardly drink the water or eat fish without ingesting industrial pollutants.


Ah the noble savage argument natives engaged in warfare and genocide just like the Europeans did. As for living standards most people have no desire to do back breaking labor just to get food like the natives had to endure so they indeed were much worse off than the technologically advanced Europeans.


Noble or not they seemed to have more respect for one another and at any rate they respected the earth as sacred, recognizing it's necessity for their survival which is why they weren't trying to conquer nature.

The important thing here is that they lived in a way that was SUSTAINABLE.  The earth simply cannot sustain 7 billion people living the lifestyle most of us here live.

Communism would help nothing but unrestrained capitalism would allow big industries to essentially rape the people and the planet.  It's hard to imagine how polluted and messed up our world would be if there were no regulations in the last century. 

If it wasn't for those regulations I truly believe the air would be 10 times worse than in the cities of China which does not regulate industrial pollution or child labor for that matter.

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: EntheogenicJourney]
    #19739965 -

EntheogenicJourney said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
EntheogenicJourney said:

Without increased production living standards must decline.



Not necessarily.  The native people who live/lived off the land seem to be quite happy until greedy Europeans/Americans come in and fuck it all up.

Our real problem is overproduction (and overpopulation) on a global scale.  We are running out of resources and destroying the planet at an alarming rate.

I'm not saying communism is the answer because its not but without regulations we wouldn't even be able to breath the air it would be so polluted.  As it is we can hardly drink the water or eat fish without ingesting industrial pollutants.


Ah the noble savage argument natives engaged in warfare and genocide just like the Europeans did. As for living standards most people have no desire to do back breaking labor just to get food like the natives had to endure so they indeed were much worse off than the technologically advanced Europeans.


Noble or not they seemed to have more respect for one another and at any rate they respected the earth as sacred, recognizing it's necessity for their survival which is why they weren't trying to conquer nature.

The important thing here is that they lived in a way that was SUSTAINABLE.  The earth simply cannot sustain 7 billion people living the lifestyle most of us here live.

Communism would help nothing but unrestrained capitalism would allow big industries to essentially rape the people and the planet.  It's hard to imagine how polluted and messed up our world would be if there were no regulations in the last century. 

If it wasn't for those regulations I truly believe the air would be 10 times worse than in the cities of China which does not regulate industrial pollution or child labor for that matter.


https://www.lp.org/issues/environment Check that link out it provides a good free market perspective on how free enterprise is better equipped than the state to protect land. As for child labor laws it would still be illegal to hire children for dangerous factory work although they would be free to sell lemonade on the corner without statist thugs demanding licenses and taxing it.


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19739972 -

Smokey420 said:
That sounds allot more reasonable then nothing at all.


I think that is the problem when people critique libertarianism they assume libertarians want to do nothing. “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.”


― Frédéric Bastiat, The Law


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19740057 -




https://www.lp.org/issues/environment Check that link out it provides a good free market perspective on how free enterprise is better equipped than the state to protect land. As for child labor laws it would still be illegal to hire children for dangerous factory work although they would be free to sell lemonade on the corner without statist thugs demanding licenses and taxing it.


I will read the link you gave me later on, but putting the environmental issues aside for just a moment, how could child labor possibly be illegal in a purely libertarian society?

Who would impose and enforce this law if not the government?

Edited by EntheogenicJourney (03/24/14 09:08 AM)

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: EntheogenicJourney]
    #19740058 -

some socialists would try to convince me I am a socialist but I dont think that counts.


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The above is hypothetical, when it is illegal.

Psychedelics are performance enhancers for the philosopher.

Knowledge and wisdom are one and the same.

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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: EntheogenicJourney]
    #19740061 -

EntheogenicJourney said:

https://www.lp.org/issues/environment Check that link out it provides a good free market perspective on how free enterprise is better equipped than the state to protect land. As for child labor laws it would still be illegal to hire children for dangerous factory work although they would be free to sell lemonade on the corner without statist thugs demanding licenses and taxing it.


I will read the link you gave me later on, but putting the environmental issues aside for just a moment, how child labor could possibly be illegal in a purely libertarian society?

Who would impose and enforce this law if not the government?


Why the people that is the point in a libertarian society there is no state or corporate coercion just voluntary business transactions. Now obviously I don't think a pure libertarian society will exist with the current political climate in the US however if we can just make the incremental changes needed to show people what more liberty and the free market is capable of I doubt anyone would want to go back to stateism.


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Re: Are there any out-and-proud Socialists in this forum? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19740172 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
EntheogenicJourney said:

https://www.lp.org/issues/environment Check that link out it provides a good free market perspective on how free enterprise is better equipped than the state to protect land. As for child labor laws it would still be illegal to hire children for dangerous factory work although they would be free to sell lemonade on the corner without statist thugs demanding licenses and taxing it.


I will read the link you gave me later on, but putting the environmental issues aside for just a moment, how child labor could possibly be illegal in a purely libertarian society?

Who would impose and enforce this law if not the government?


Why the people that is the point in a libertarian society there is no state or corporate coercion just voluntary business transactions. Now obviously I don't think a pure libertarian society will exist with the current political climate in the US however if we can just make the incremental changes needed to show people what more liberty and the free market is capable of I doubt anyone would want to go back to stateism.


But what if a dangerous factory decides to employ children and the children have bad parents who don't give a fuck?  Lets even say these children are being abused.

It's easy to say "the people" would help them but which people in particular?

I really like the idea of libertarianism believe it or not.  I am certainly not a statist or communist.

Its just that when I really think about all the implications realistically it is not feasible.  It is essentially anarchism and that has never worked just like communism has never worked.

Somewhere in the middle is the only thing practical in a world full of greedy and power-hungry people for without checks and balances the good people always loose whether to a dictatorship with communism or an abusive corporatocracy with libertarianism.

Governments are corrupt because power corrupts but that's the same reason corporations are corrupt.

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