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Anonymous

hey socialists...
    #2828893 - 06/25/04 08:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

what do you think is wrong about a libertarian society?

you could build a socialist collective of voluntary members within a libertarian society. you can't even do that right now.

one could not, on the other hand, create a libertarian community within a society run by a collectivist state.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: hey socialists... [Re: ]
    #2828909 - 06/25/04 08:42 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i'm not a socialist,

but wouldn't libertarianism condemn social outcasts? Libertarianism seems as if it depends on people voluntarily helping each other ( unless they try surviving completely by themselves ). Some people will not be helped at all.

Also, how would current society transform into a libertarian one without having it turn into a few megacorporations controlling things even more than right now?

Would Locke's idea that you can defend only as much as you could possibly use take place -- people stealing from the ultrarich at will because it could not fall under defense of property?


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: hey socialists... [Re: vampirism]
    #2829238 - 06/25/04 11:56 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
wouldn't libertarianism condemn social outcasts?



No. People could voluntarily have communal, religious, goth, hippy, homosexual, black, hispanic, libertine, ascetic or any other kind of communities that they choose to belong to. Libertarianism is about choosing your own way as long as you do not force it upon others.

Quote:

Some people will not be helped at all.



Anyone is free to help anyone else that they desire, with less taxes people would have more disposable income, municipalities would not be allowed to kick the homeless off of public property. Of course, the prisons would be a lot less crowded and people's lives wouldn't be destroyed by the war on some drugs.

Quote:

Also, how would current society transform into a libertarian one without having it turn into a few megacorporations controlling things even more than right now?



On reason corporations have so much power now is because the government has so much power which can be corrupted by those who desire to buy off 'civil servants.' There would be no corporate personhood in a truly libertarian society, though people could voluntarily form various kinds of business partnerships. There would be no coporate welfare, no government promotion of favored businesses, no use of eminent domain to facilitate corporations, legal barriers to start up businesses would be removed...

Quote:

Would Locke's idea that you can defend only as much as you could possibly use take place -- people stealing from the ultrarich at will because it could not fall under defense of property?



Property rights would be defended. That a man is ultra rich is no skin off of my nose, but then I am not driven by envy like so many others in present day America.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
and fell

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 537
Loc: MI
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: hey socialists... [Re: Evolving]
    #2829282 - 06/26/04 12:18 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

On reason corporations have so much power now is because the government has so much power which can be corrupted by those who desire to buy off 'civil servants.' There would be no corporate personhood in a truly libertarian society, though people could voluntarily form various kinds of business partnerships. There would be no coporate welfare, no government promotion of favored businesses, no use of eminent domain to facilitate corporations, legal barriers to start up businesses would be removed...

Thats what I like to hear.

Also I was just thinking that when we are farther down the bell curve of oil availability/price, it will probably be more economical to support local industry(be it food, clothing, machinery, etc.) than it would to support these large uber-corps that make everything in cheap labor factories halfway across the world and what not.



Property rights would be defended. That a man is ultra rich is no skin off of my nose, but then I am not driven by envy like so many others in present day America.

I am still kinda iffy on the idea of patents and intellectual property. I think those hinder a truly free market. If someone can take your idea and do it better than you, they should.

And I agree, rich people are just people with alot of money. Thats fine. I only have a problem when that rich person and money start dictating, legislating, and governing me. Then I want to eat that person.


--------------------
If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: hey socialists... [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2829298 - 06/26/04 12:26 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

FrankieJustTrypt said:
I only have a problem when that rich person and money start dictating, legislating, and governing me. Then I want to eat that person.



Yeah, me too. I also think when politicians go along with this, they need a bullet in the head.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
and fell

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 537
Loc: MI
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: hey socialists... [Re: Evolving]
    #2829421 - 06/26/04 01:44 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The end move in politics is always to pick up a gun. - Buckminster Fuller

I do love that quote.


--------------------
If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: hey socialists... [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2829459 - 06/26/04 02:05 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

FrankieJustTrypt said:
I am still kinda iffy on the idea of patents and intellectual property. I think those hinder a truly free market. If someone can take your idea and do it better than you, they should.




Without patents there is no real motivation to invest large amounts of resources into a new idea. If you know that once you spend millions perfecting an invention then everyone else can profit off of your investment it becomes a very poor investment. Patents should have a limit on how long they last, but they must be preserved.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: hey socialists... [Re: z@z.com]
    #2829509 - 06/26/04 02:21 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Patents are good for tangible goods,but I think they're bad for information. You can't look at the open source software movement and tell me it doesn't work.

I don't think patents should apply to indiviuals,just corporations. If I want to reverse engineer or copy something for my own use and not gain anything monentarily from it,I should be able to.

That's what I think is wrong with the right wing libertarian. They see corporations and individuals as the same thing. (Waiting for "hey,corporations are made of groups of people" guy to chime in...)


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by monoamine (06/26/04 02:25 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: hey socialists... [Re: ]
    #2829534 - 06/26/04 02:26 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

what do you think is wrong about a libertarian society?

Depends on your definition of libertarian mush. Libertarian socialism would be fine. I imagine you mean the far right version of libertarianism.

Libertarian Socialism recognizes that the concept of "property" (specifically, the means of production, factories, land used for profit, rented space) is theft and that in a truly libertarian society, the individual would be free of exploitation caused by the concentration of all means of wealth-making into the hands of an elite minority of capitalists.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Last seen: 2 years, 11 days
Re: hey socialists... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2829962 - 06/26/04 08:04 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Depends on your definition of libertarian mush. Libertarian socialism would be fine.

Alex's quote is of course from an "Anarchist" website, http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libsoc.html , and refers to one of the more popular variants of modern "anarchism" -- anarcho-syndicalism.

It is nowhere close to the political philosophy held by the American Libertarian Party or by Laissez-faire Capitalists but is instead just another minor variant of the same tired old Collectivist theme.

"Libertarian Socialists" lay claim to the term "Libertarian" because it was used back in the nineteenth century by some of the collectivists of the time, before the American Libertarian Party was formed. Their view is that the Libertarian party of today has hijacked the term and perverted its meaning.

Here is another quote from the same webpage Alex found his quote :

Libertarian Socialism is a term essentially synonymous with the word "Anarchism". Anarchy, strictly meaning "without rulers", leads one to wonder what sort of system would exist in place of one without state or capitalist masters... the answer being a radically democratic society while preserving the maximal amount of individual liberty and freedom possible.

Libertarian Socialism recognizes that the concept of "property" (specifically, the means of production, factories, land used for profit, rented space) is theft and that in a truly libertarian society, the individual would be free of exploitation caused by the concentration of all means of wealth-making into the hands of an elite minority of capitalists.


Since the American Libertarian Party espouses a Laissez-faire Capitalist system, it is clear that anyone who believes property is "theft" (a ludicrous and easily-refuted notion) is not a Libertarian in the sense that Libertarian is commonly used today.

The key point to remember about all this is that "Libertarian Socialists" are nowhere close to favoring individual rights and are in fact out and out Collectivists. They are in no way shape or form associated with any of the various subsets of Libertarian Party (i.e. left-libertarian, geo-libertarian, right-libertarian), they merely wish to cash in on the term.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: hey socialists... [Re: Phred]
    #2830835 - 06/26/04 02:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It is nowhere close to the political philosophy held by the American Libertarian Party or by Laissez-faire Capitalists

Indeed.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: hey socialists... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2830956 - 06/26/04 03:28 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i'm not talking about "libertarian socialism". i mean libertarianism as it is commonly understood.

now that we've got that cleared up, perhaps you'll answer my question?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,965
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: hey socialists... [Re: ]
    #2830974 - 06/26/04 03:35 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

now that we've got that cleared up, perhaps you'll answer my question?



:rotfl:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: hey socialists... [Re: ]
    #2831037 - 06/26/04 03:56 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i'm not talking about "libertarian socialism". i mean libertarianism as it is commonly understood.

Are you sure your understanding of libertarianism is "commonly understood"?

Here's Chomsky on this:

QUESTION: ...What's the difference between your [Anarchist] views and
the Libertarian Party?

[This, among four other back-to-back call-in quations (see below)]

CHOMSKY: Well let me begin with the question about the Libertarian Party.
The Libertarian Party is familiar here -- unknown elsewhere. There's a
*long* tradition of Anarchism, Libertarian thought outside the United
States, which is *diametrically* opposed to the positions of the
Libertarian Party -- but it's unknown here.

That's the *dominant* position of what's always been considered
Socialist Anarchism. Now, the Libertarian Party, is a *Capitalist*
Party. It's in favor of what *I* would regard a *particular form*
of authoritarian control. Namely, the kind that comes through
private ownership and control, which is an *extremely* rigid
system of domination -- people have to.. people can survive,
by renting themselves to it, and basically in no other way.

So while I share a lot of..there's a lot of shared ground with the
special, U.S. right-wing anarchism, which really exists only here (and
in fact have plenty of friends, and so on), I do disagree with them
*very* sharply, and I think that they are not..understanding the
*fundamental* doctrine, that you should be free from domination and
control, including the control of the manager and the owner.

now that we've got that cleared up, perhaps you'll answer my question?

We've cleared up that the far right brand of libertarianism you push isn't what is commonly understood to be libertarian thought. As to your question, I answered it in my previous post.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: hey socialists... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2831044 - 06/26/04 04:02 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

We've cleared up that the far right brand of libertarianism you push isn't what is commonly understood to be libertarian thought.

thanks al. :smirk:

now will you please tell me what's wrong with the far right brand of libertarianism i push?

As to your question, I answered it in my previous post.

no you didn't. you asked me what version of libertarianism i was talking about and proceded to outline some of the merits of "libertarian socialism". perhaps you're getting so good at dodging questions that you fool even yourself into believing that you actually answered them?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,965
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: hey socialists... [Re: ]
    #2831082 - 06/26/04 04:20 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

perhaps you're getting so good at dodging questions that you fool even yourself into believing that you actually answered them?
 


  :thumbup:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: hey socialists... [Re: ]
    #2831083 - 06/26/04 04:21 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

thanks al

You're welcome mush  :smile:

now will you please tell me what's wrong with the far right brand of libertarianism i push?

We must have been over this enough times. What's wrong with paying people a pittance, making "the police" responsible for prosecuting multi-billion dollar corporations if they abuse workers, eliminating welfare and healthcare for the poor, the vast bulk of workers rights. Was it you who was pushing that eugenic bullshit about "If people on welfare starve to death now we won't have to feed them anymore"?

You really need me to tell you what's wrong with a world like that?

no you didn't

Yes I did.

you're getting so good blah blah

Spare me. It's all so old.

you actually answered them 

Here's the answer again. A Libertarian socialist society sounds good, especially when contrasted to the right-wing version you push. What part of this answer don't you understand?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: hey socialists... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2831096 - 06/26/04 04:27 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

We must have been over this enough times. What's wrong with paying people a pittance, making "the police" responsible for prosecuting multi-billion dollar corporations if they abuse workers, eliminating welfare and healthcare for the poor, the vast bulk of workers rights.

thanks. that's sortof what i'm looking for.

i guess what i'm saying here is that within a libertarian community, one could create a voluntary socialist community for those who wanted to live in a collective. there would be nobody stopping them. instead of forcing socialism on everyone, you could have socialism for those who wanted it.

who is harmed by liberty?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: hey socialists... [Re: ]
    #2831102 - 06/26/04 04:32 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Except as Chomsky points out a right-wing version of libertarianism pushes an extremely rigid form of authoritarian control that people have to rent themselves to. Difficult to see how the two systems could co-exist. If the multi-billion corporation wants the same land as a socialist collective with no money does, who wins?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: hey socialists... [Re: ]
    #2831337 - 06/26/04 07:09 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The above Chomskyan doublespeak and evasions are the reason that I regularly refer to myself as a laissez-faire Capitalist. That way the attempts by the Collectivists to dodge the issue are more obvious.

Chomsky, for a linguist, is remarkably reluctant to use words in their commonly accepted connotation. He claims to be an Anarchist, yet when pinned down espouses Collectivist ideals. This doesn't make him unique among modern day "Anarchists", of course. Note his rejection of the concept of private property -- a common denominator of Collectivists of any stripe.

pinky


--------------------


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