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Libertarian Presidential Debate
    #23132974 -

So I am just wondering if any of you happen to watch the LP Presidential Debate on John Stossel's show? Most people out there are usually stuck voting for the two party system that has failed us time and time again, some people think voting for a 3rd party is a waste of a vote, but why vote for the lesser of two evils instead of voting on principal? If you yourself are heavily into politics, I would suggest that you watch this debate so that way you know that you aren't only trapped with the "left" and the "right".




I do got to say though, out of the three candidates up on that stage, I believe that John McAfee did really good. I usually lean for Gary Johnson but McAfee got me a bit leaning towards him now.

Anyway, I hope to hear some of your thoughts and input upon this.


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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: PNW_Vibes]
    #23133860 -

The Green Party is a better choice still than the Libertarian Party, imho.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Deleted *DELETED* [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23134249 -

Post deleted by BlackWidow

Reason for deletion: Deleted

Edited by BlackWidow (02/02/21 05:37 PM)

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: BlackWidow]
    #23134269 -

I'll take good policy over experience.  :shrug:

Hillary Clinton has 'experience'.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23135570 -

the lib party is just more conservative bullshit sucking that same old business dick


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: airclay]
    #23135706 -

Who was the moderator?  I heard Julie broworski?  If so that's cool.


My general feeling of the Libertarian party is let down.  Nobody has the passion, charisma, and way of words it takes to articulate libertarian philosophy in a way that gets people excited.  Rand Paul is the biggest let down shadow of daddy issues, he's obviously content as a senator, I feel like he's tired of trying.

The Libertarian party needs to be more clear and thorough in explaining its positions and the reason for them.  Unfortunately, in these days of instant gratification where everyone has 3 second attention spans it is a near impossible task.


I dislike how Gary Johnson always goes right into legalize Marijuana, It just looks silly.    I wish he was better at explaining the core ideals of libertarianism instead of going off on disjointed tangents.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: Shins]
    #23136448 -

because if they really got down to the nuts and bolts shins, it would expose them as nothing more than a more socially liberal gop funded by a lot of the same corporate bullshit. Very far removed from the type of "liberty" you or other "classic american libertarians" strive for. So they have to wave hype banners about weed.


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: airclay]
    #23137345 -

airclay said:
because if they really got down to the nuts and bolts shins, it would expose them as nothing more than a more socially liberal gop funded by a lot of the same corporate bullshit. Very far removed from the type of "liberty" you or other "classic american libertarians" strive for. So they have to wave hype banners about weed.


this is my impression as well.

the party is reasonable about social issues, at least to a point. we part ways on the drug war - libertarians want decriminalization and i'm for legalization. i suspect the former view is stemmed by a hesitance to increase state involvement in any area, which is quite simply madness to me. the whole 'minimized state' ideology is fantasy. and really, all libertarians want to do is privatize everything, which is already proving to be disastrous between healthcare, the prison complex and the rise of privatized probation.

i also think they're weak on environmental issues. and that stems from this cockamamie notion of 'liberty' and how public oversight is an infringement of it.

people who label themselves as libertarians tend to fall more in the neoliberalist category; 'liberty' expressed as insanely hostile attitudes towards government in general. don't get me wrong, i know we have a lot of problems with our government. but establishing a corporatocracy would be the stuff of nightmares. and that seems to be what libertarians want above anything else.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: millzy]
    #23137410 -

Libertarians are classic liberals  socially liberal, economically conservative.

Basically, they want freedom, and want people to take responsibility for their own problems and actions.  We want freedom and the personal responsibility that comes with it.


To me it seems people who are against libertarians don't want to take responsibility sibility for their own lives.  They want the government to coddle them like babies.


I believe that you all are individuals who own yourself.  You are an individual, not a c9g 8n some collectivist machine that's owns you like a slave.


Make no mistake, when the collectivists try to tax and spend, they are claiming ownership over you, an individual.  This is slavery to the collective.  No Thank you I don't want to be assimilated into your born collective filled with ignorant fucks who treat me like a slave.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: Shins]
    #23137539 -

there's a big problem with an appeal to individuality though. while it is true that we are individuals in certain (important) senses, we are also part of a collective that we call society. and society is, ultimately, a contractual agreement in which individuals sacrifice some of their liberty in exchange for protection and the opportunity to pursue happiness. in other words, we are members of society before we are individuals. speaking of taxation as an infringement on individuality is spurious because taxes nourish the system that allows for individuals to exist.

and as far as 'personal responsibility' goes, we pay for our social safety net. using it - like any other government service - is a transaction. everyone needs help sometimes. and that's cool because they pay for it with their taxes.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (04/20/16 04:24 PM)

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: Shins]
    #23137588 -

Shins said:
We want freedom and the personal responsibility that comes with it.

To me it seems people who are against libertarians don't want to take responsibility sibility for their own lives.  They want the government to coddle them like babies.

I believe that you all are individuals who own yourself.  You are an individual, not a c9g 8n some collectivist machine that's owns you like a slave.

Make no mistake, when the collectivists try to tax and spend, they are claiming ownership over you, an individual.  This is slavery to the collective.  No Thank you I don't want to be assimilated into your born collective filled with ignorant fucks who treat me like a slave.


How do you equate Government improving people's lives to Government imposing slavery on us?

"Bernie's going to enslave us with a living wage and free healthcare".  :flowstone:

I guess you'd rather live in poverty than allow the Government to improve your life?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Deleted *DELETED* [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23138182 -

Post deleted by BlackWidow

Reason for deletion: Deleted

Edited by BlackWidow (02/02/21 05:37 PM)

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: Shins]
    #23138313 -

Shins said:
Libertarians are classic liberals  socially liberal, economically conservative.

Basically, they want freedom, and want people to take responsibility for their own problems and actions.  We want freedom and the personal responsibility that comes with it.


To me it seems people who are against libertarians don't want to take responsibility sibility for their own lives.  They want the government to coddle them like babies.


I believe that you all are individuals who own yourself.  You are an individual, not a c9g 8n some collectivist machine that's owns you like a slave.


Make no mistake, when the collectivists try to tax and spend, they are claiming ownership over you, an individual.  This is slavery to the collective.  No Thank you I don't want to be assimilated into your born collective filled with ignorant fucks who treat me like a slave.



wtf except all of the folks that called themselves libertarians, identified as communist and/or anarchist and pre-date the libertarian party and the upsurge in "american libertarianism" from the 50's-70's. Like a good number of highly regarded late 19th century writers. but I know I know you've studied this all your life and you can't disprove history so we'll just keep going in circles on this one.

dude seriously can I just buy you a history book?

also your frame is way too small. like almost all true individualist you forget that the world is a symbiotic relationship and nothing exist without co-operation. Let me know when you really wanna work on a stateless society instead of setting up the next corporate police state squat.


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Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: airclay]
    #23138534 -

No. Society is not some contractual agreement like you say.  I nor anyone else ever signed any contracts for that.  Society is simply the interaction of individuals.

The way you twist things to make it like we all agree to the borg collective simply because we live or were born here is a bunch if sick nonsense. 

What government really is is the "legal" initiation of force.  That is the foundation of government and always has been. 

Socialists are so absent minded they completely ignore this and pretend like it's ok to ask someone in government to force another individual to behave or not behave in certain ways, pay for things you want,  forfeit your ability to CONSENT.  The smoke and mirrors of government makes socialists forget they are asking to point guns at people who aren't harming anyone else.  That is morally wrong. Bad socialists!  Don't hit don't steal... wr learn this in grade one yet it is the foundation of socialism. 


It makes me sick to see you guys act like the hip good guys when really behind the mask you're ugly and uncivilized as fuck.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23138543 -

Quote:
"Bernie's going to enslave us with a living wage and free healthcare".



That's exactly what he'll do!  That's the smartest thing I've ever seen you say.


Everyone will live equally in poverty and the state will run our lives cradle to grave and we will be economic cogs in the machine of power and the moneyed  rulers who rule will have more power than ever, great plan.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: BlackWidow]
    #23138550 -

BlackWidow said:
Quote:
the party is reasonable about social issues, at least to a point. we part ways on the drug war - libertarians want decriminalization and i'm for legalization.


:lolwut:

Libertarians are for full legalization of all drugs. Decriminalization is just a start.



That's true.

Libertarians believe that what you do with your own body is your own business, however it is up to you to suffer the consequences as well.

Libertarians believe that YOU own yourself. Not the state, government, or "society."  We hold this as a philosophic moral principle in which we base libertarian ethics on. 

When people say you belong to "society" they are claiming ownership of you, which makes you their slave.  They use overwhelming force and the threat of it to coerce you to act in their wishes.


Libertarians believe this limits and stifles economic innovation as well as individual freedom to be who you want to be and do what you want to do (as long as it doesn't harm others)


Libertarians respect that the government IS the "legal use of force" but take the great responsibility of it much more seriously.  We do NOT flash the guns of the state around like socialists do,  we respect that government is a necessary evil, but must be kept to as minimum use as necessary.  If we are going to use legal force, we should make damn sure it's for something very very important and essential.



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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Edited by Shins (04/20/16 09:11 PM)

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: airclay]
    #23138577 -

airclay said:
Shins said:
Libertarians are classic liberals  socially liberal, economically conservative.

Basically, they want freedom, and want people to take responsibility for their own problems and actions.  We want freedom and the personal responsibility that comes with it.


To me it seems people who are against libertarians don't want to take responsibility sibility for their own lives.  They want the government to coddle them like babies.


I believe that you all are individuals who own yourself.  You are an individual, not a c9g 8n some collectivist machine that's owns you like a slave.


Make no mistake, when the collectivists try to tax and spend, they are claiming ownership over you, an individual.  This is slavery to the collective.  No Thank you I don't want to be assimilated into your born collective filled with ignorant fucks who treat me like a slave.



wtf except all of the folks that called themselves libertarians, identified as communist and/or anarchist and pre-date the libertarian party and the upsurge in "american libertarianism" from the 50's-70's. Like a good number of highly regarded late 19th century writers. but I know I know you've studied this all your life and you can't disprove history so we'll just keep going in circles on this one.

dude seriously can I just buy you a history book?

also your frame is way too small. like almost all true individualist you forget that the world is a symbiotic relationship and nothing exist without co-operation. Let me know when you really wanna work on a stateless society instead of setting up the next corporate police state squat.



Anarcho-communism cannot exist as a form of national government, it's a logical contradiction.  It can only exist as a private, consentual oganization along with other types of private organizations under a stateless society.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: Shins] * 2
    #23138636 -

Shins said:
No. Society is not some contractual agreement like you say.  I nor anyone else ever signed any contracts for that.  Society is simply the interaction of individuals.


society is contractual in that there are rules and consequences that happen if those rules are broken if you are a member. hence why the term "the social contract", which refers to the relation between the people and their government, has persisted since plato.

Quote:
The way you twist things to make it like we all agree to the borg collective simply because we live or were born here is a bunch if sick nonsense.


if you are born in a society, you are beholden to its government. i would be interested in seeing why you think that statement is a distortion.

Quote:
What government really is is the "legal" initiation of force.  That is the foundation of government and always has been.


and yet we are ruled by consent. 

Quote:
Socialists are so absent minded they completely ignore this and pretend like it's ok to ask someone in government to force another individual to behave or not behave in certain ways, pay for things you want,  forfeit your ability to CONSENT.  The smoke and mirrors of government makes socialists forget they are asking to point guns at people who aren't harming anyone else.  That is morally wrong. Bad socialists!  Don't hit don't steal... wr learn this in grade one yet it is the foundation of socialism.


i honestly don't even understand what you're trying to say here. but if i were to take a guess, i'm thinking that you're saying that i'm fascist because i disagree with your views and am pointing out the gaping holes in your logic. we learned another lesson when we were little, and that was to not be greedy little bitches. you know why? because that's what makes societies work. if you don't like the government "stealing" from you via taxation, move to a country without taxes. 

Quote:
It makes me sick to see you guys act like the hip good guys when really behind the mask you're ugly and uncivilized as fuck.


get well soon! we'll all be waiting here back on earth.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: millzy]
    #23138685 -

Classical liberalism was about the individual and individual rights.  No state or church should supercede an individual's basic human rights, that us slavery.


You think you are born into the bondage of the state and live for the state.  I'm here to tell you you are a hoodwinked slave suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.  The dazzle of government has made you forget that you are a natural being and you own yourself and your actions, as well as the consequences thereof.  You choose to be a slave under the yoke of the state, not everyone does.  Some of us have the potential to amount to more than that, but you guys are going to bring down everyone with you.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Libertarian Presidential Debate [Re: BlackWidow] * 1
    #23138694 -

BlackWidow said:
Quote:
the party is reasonable about social issues, at least to a point. we part ways on the drug war - libertarians want decriminalization and i'm for legalization.


:lolwut:

Libertarians are for full legalization of all drugs. Decriminalization is just a start.


that's news to me. but it looks like CATO, a koch brothers production, has reversed their rhetoric. the older literature seems to only want to push for decriminalization. we agree then there, but i stand by my point that libertarian 'economics' is lunacy.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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