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Anonymous

libertarian socialism
    #2831049 - 06/26/04 04:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"libertarian socialism" is not a form of libertarianism, but socialism. anyone who has the slightest grip on grammar knows this from simply reading the term. the word "libertarian" is used as an adjective to describe the sort of socialism that the term refers to.

my question is: what kind of socialism can be accurately described as libertarian socialism? what kinds cannot?


Edited by Anonymous (06/26/04 04:15 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2831093 - 06/26/04 04:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

On the other hand...

QUESTION: ...What's the difference between your [Anarchist] views and
the Libertarian Party?

[This, among four other back-to-back call-in quations (see below)]

CHOMSKY: Well let me begin with the question about the Libertarian Party.
The Libertarian Party is familiar here -- unknown elsewhere. There's a
*long* tradition of Anarchism, Libertarian thought outside the United
States, which is *diametrically* opposed to the positions of the
Libertarian Party -- but it's unknown here.

That's the *dominant* position of what's always been considered
Socialist Anarchism. Now, the Libertarian Party, is a *Capitalist*
Party. It's in favor of what *I* would regard a *particular form*
of authoritarian control. Namely, the kind that comes through
private ownership and control, which is an *extremely* rigid
system of domination -- people have to.. people can survive,
by renting themselves to it, and basically in no other way.

So while I share a lot of..there's a lot of shared ground with the
special, U.S. right-wing anarchism, which really exists only here (and
in fact have plenty of friends, and so on), I do disagree with them
*very* sharply, and I think that they are not..understanding the
*fundamental* doctrine, that you should be free from domination and
control, including the control of the manager and the owner.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Xlea321]
    #2831100 - 06/26/04 04:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

so... how is libertarian socialism libertarian?


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2831273 - 06/26/04 06:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

its not, thats the idea i think


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2831630 - 06/26/04 09:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

socially liberal, fiscally collectivist. (?)


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Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2831692 - 06/26/04 10:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

yes. libertarian socialism differs from libertarianism in that you may act freely as long as you do not initiate force (government officials exempted).... unless you are being productive or making free exchanges or agreements with other people. :smirk:

liberty doesn't cease the moment you begin working or making (voluntary) exchanges.


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Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2831741 - 06/26/04 10:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

the defining characteristic of libertarianism is that it protects liberty in all activities except a certain subcategory of interpersonal interactions... the initiation of force.

libertarian socialism on the other hand, is presumably only libertarian in that it protects liberty in all activities except nearly all subcategories of interpersonal interactions... but really, it doesn't even protect liberty that far. even in solitude, one is subject to the power of the state if one decides to engage in productive labor.

there's really nothing libertarian about libertarian socialism at all.


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Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2831762 - 06/26/04 10:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

haha. 3 in a row...

isn't it pretty clear that the power to control "the market" is really power to control everything?

marijuana prohibition was introduced as a tax, and could very well be executed as a tax. so could a lot of other infringements of liberty.


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2832869 - 06/27/04 11:13 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

there's really nothing libertarian about libertarian socialism at all.



i'm impressed that youve managed to convince yourself of that. :smirk:


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Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2832877 - 06/27/04 11:16 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

tell me what is libertarian about a system which attempts to control and divert the production and exchange of wealth in society. what are the limits to its power? what rights do people retain?


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2833037 - 06/27/04 12:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

you probably wont get a decent answer here considering there really arent any anarchists in this forum (although you probably enjoy this). If you actually want to debate the issue with anarchists, post here instead: http://flag.blackened.net/forums/index.php


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2833040 - 06/27/04 12:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

mushmaster asks:

what kind of socialism can be accurately described as libertarian socialism? what kinds cannot?

Who cares? It's just another of a seemingly infinite number of variations on Collectivism. That's all one needs to know.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2833132 - 06/27/04 12:55 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So little time, so little time.

From time to time I just shake my head in wonderment at some of the posts in this forum, but I just spent half an hour poking around that blackened flag board. What a bunch of idiots.

In this forum we see a lot of made-up "facts", errors in logic, arbitrary statements with no foundation, bizarre philosophies and conspiracy theories, but there the entire board consists of nothing but!

Makes me glad to be here.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2833140 - 06/27/04 12:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

okay, wonderful you have an opinion. why not actually debate them instead of running back here and saying "...what a bunch of idiots. " You certainly have enough time to post, as we all can see here.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2833145 - 06/27/04 01:02 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

What's the point? I spent long enough reading through some of their forums to see what happens to people who use facts and reason there. Those people are immune to both.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2833152 - 06/27/04 01:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:lol: weak.

shelve the pretense and ego and put your money where your mouth is.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2833316 - 06/27/04 02:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I am in the middle of a pretty hairy project IRL at the moment. This is the last day for the next two weeks that I will have any significant amount of time off. It'll be difficult enough for me to spend much time online anywhere till this project is done, so I have no intention of taking on yet another forum.

But I'll tell you what. If you want to go to that board and find a post there promoting Libertarian Socialist ideals that you feel I'd have a hard time shredding and cut and paste it here, I'll work on it when I can.

Before you do that, though, you might want to review these archived threads --

http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=357603&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=570143&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1


-- where the same thing was done to several "anarchists" (Agent Cooper, mm. and svoboda, mainly) three years back. I'd hate to have to repeat myself. Most of the anarchist refutation was done in the first thread. By the time the second thread arose, it was mainly AgentCooper who was trying to defend the "Libertarian Socialist" point of view.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2833415 - 06/27/04 02:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

In your opinion, would someone who believed in a libertarian government but also advocated collectivist communities where people live under a voluntary socialist arrangement be a legitimate form of libertarian socialist?


--------------------


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2833451 - 06/27/04 02:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I am in the middle of a pretty hairy project IRL at the moment. This is the last day for the next two weeks that I will have any significant amount of time off. It'll be difficult enough for me to spend much time online anywhere till this project is done, so I have no intention of taking on yet another forum.




wait, I thought everyone at that forum was below yourself and not worthy of receiving your arguments...

Quote:

But I'll tell you what. If you want to go to that board and find a post there promoting Libertarian Socialist ideals that you feel I'd have a hard time shredding and cut and paste it here, I'll work on it when I can.




No thanks. I'd rather see those who wish to debate anarchist theory actually debate anarchists. Seems like the intellectually honest thing to do. All else is just masterbation.


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2833519 - 06/27/04 03:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

by the way, I think the poster named Beery in the thread you linked summed it quite nicely:

Quote:

re:pinkshakmark

You seem unable to clearly understand anarchism, and you're merely engaging in contradiction. Your premises are somewhat lacking in relevance to my arguments (in certain parts it's almost like there's a complete disconnect) and you fail to cite any sources from which to derive a logical counter argument. You seem to be merely engaging in thoughtless rhetoric.

Your knowledge of anarchism is obviously quite basic (and that's being generous). You prefer to see anarchism as a simplistic utopian fantasy, rather than allowing that it can be as sophisticated a system as that in which we live today. Your overly simplified view of an anarchist society allows you to set up any number of straw man arguments. I suggest you really need to take some time to study the subject fairly rather than make arbitrary judgements about your straw man version of anarchism.




I dont think you "refuted" anarchism - if anything, it was a draw.


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