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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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God is an Anarchist.
    #4420817 - 07/18/05 10:43 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

1 Samuel 8

So all the elders of Israel met, and came to Samuel at Ramah and said to him, ?You are now old and your sons do not follow in your footsteps; appoint us a king to govern us, like other nations.? But their request for a king to govern them displeased Samuel, and he prayed to the LORD. The LORD answered Samuel, ?Listen to the people and all they are saying; they have not rejected you, it is I whom they?ve rejected, I whom they will not have to be their king. They are now doing to you just what they?ve done to me since I brought them up from Egypt; they have forsaken me and worshiped other gods. Hear what they have to say now, but give them a solemn warning and tell them what sort of king will govern them.? Samuel told the people who were asking him for a king all that the LORD had said to him. ?This will be the sort of king who will govern you,? he said. ?He will take your sons and make them serve in his chariots and with his cavalry, and will make them run before his chariot. Some he will appoint officers over units of a thousand and units of fifty. Others will plow his fields and reap his harvest; others again will make weapons of war and equipment for mounted troops?He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage to give to his eunuchs and lackeys?He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out against the king you have chosen; but it will be too late, the LORD will not answer you.? The people refused to listen to Samuel; ?No,? they said, ?We will have a king over us; then we shall be like other nations, with a king to govern us, to lead us out to war and fight our battles.?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4420828 - 07/18/05 10:46 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

So is his boy.

http://www.anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html

Anarcho-capitalist, actually.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4420913 - 07/18/05 11:09 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Taxation at just 10%? Sweet deal.



Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4421110 - 07/18/05 11:42 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4423321 - 07/19/05 01:42 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I've read it already. That is a nice read, true on many aspects. But i have to disagree with Redford's words on property and the way capitalism is justified. Sartre thoughts on this are also interesting, you should read them.
More about this can also be found here: http://anarchism.jesusradicals.com/FAQ.php

MAIA


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: MAIA]
    #4423450 - 07/19/05 02:16 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

If there is no government, then how could someone own property?


In an Anarcistic society, you only own what you can control, there is no government to recognize something as being yours or not.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4423614 - 07/19/05 03:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If there is no government, then how could someone own property?




In anarchism, "private property" in the sense of private ownership of productive property, is considered a common good, so it belongs to everybody and not to a government in particular.

To make myself clear, here's an essay i have collected

Quote:

Private Property

"Abolish private property" has been a slogan used by anarchists since the dawn of the industrial age. It's a pity they couldn't have found a better way of wording it. Anarchist views have become so misrepresented by defenders of the existing order that some people think it means that we would take away their house, their car, or even their TV.

It's nothing like that. It has nothing to do with the personal possessions that we all should be able to have. When that slogan was first used 'private property' referred only to private ownership of productive property.

It was - and still is - about denying anyone a 'right' to own factories, big farms and the means of distributing products, such as railways, airlines and road haulage fleets.

Anarchists are opposed to such private ownership because we are opposed to exploiting people. There are those, usually of the ruling class, who will deny that there is exploitation in the Ireland of the 1990s. All that stuff belongs to the bad old days ...or does it?

In the distant past things were a lot more obvious. A peasant had to work two or three days a week on the landlord's estate but got no payment for it. It was as clear as day that part of the fruit of that peasant's labour had been stolen by the lord.

Now workers are paid for all the hours they put in. Some may be underpaid by current standards, but they don't have to give their boss a set number of hours without pay. So how can anyone claim they are being exploited in the sense of having to work for nothing so that some parasite can benefit?

Under the present economic system - capitalism - goods are produced in order to be sold. Most of us do not have products to sell. We do, however, have something else to sell.

We have our ability to work, our labour power. Wages are the price we get for our labour power. Without labour power nothing can be produced. Even an apple on a tree has no value until it is picked, it is the labour used to pick it that gives it value. Otherwise it could not be eaten, it would just rot on the branch and be of no use to anyone.

It all seems simple and straight- forward. We work (if we are lucky enough to have a job), our work creates value,and we get paid for it. So what's the problem? It is that our wages never add up to the full value of our work.

The difference between what we get in wages and what the product or service is sold for (after allowing for expenses) is what bosses call profit. This is their source of income. This is the basis of capitalism, a small minority living off the unpaid wages of the majority.

Anarchists are working for a future where the ownership of industry will be taken away from the bosses and instead will become the property of society as a whole. Its control and management would be vested in bodies democratically elected by the workers themselves.

The world of work would not be geared to generating profits for a class of rich idlers ... . Instead decisions about what to produce, and what to invest in improvements and new processes, would be taken on the basis of what is socially useful. Production would be geared to meet people's needs rather than to satisfy the greed of a tiny minority. That would be the end of 'private property'.





MAIA


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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: MAIA]
    #4423686 - 07/19/05 03:25 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"If there is no government, then how could someone own property?"

This is a question I've asked many times in the face of anarcho-capitalists AND anarcho-socialists. Neither group can provide a logical answer. I'm an anarchist in theory myself, but even I know that if there's no state to recognize property, then property -- either collectively owned or privately owned -- cannot exist except as a voluntary social agreement. But if there's no one to enforce ownership, it's someone's word against someone else's as to who owns what. Neither anarcho-socialism or -capitalism are true anarchism because they comprise non-voluntary social agreements such as recognition of property.

MAIA, you seem to be referring to anarcho-socialism. The problem with "an-soc" is that property is still recognized collectively. Who exactly is a part of the collective? If it includes every person on the planet then, okay. But if nothing is owned by anyone in particular, then anyone is free to use anything and 'property' and 'own' become irrelevant, so why do an-socs even mention the terms? If the collective includes some people but not all, then this is a double standard and negates the concept of anarchism.


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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: MAIA]
    #4423699 - 07/19/05 03:30 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

So Anarchists are indistinguishable from Socialists on that point, as I have maintained for thirty years now. You can't own anything with which you might make stuff -- that right is reserved for "The Collective". You as an individual are allowed to consume, but you as an individual are not allowed to produce. You are allowed to buy a clay pot, but not allowed to make a kiln with which to make clay pots.

Quote:

It was - and still is - about denying anyone a 'right' to own factories, big farms and the means of distributing products, such as railways, airlines and road haulage fleets.




So much for independent truckers, I guess. Or a farm big enough that you need to hire employees to help you. You have no right to own those things. Only "The Collective" has the right to own those things.

Want to buy some cabinets for your kitchen? The Collective will allow that. Want to make cabinets in order to support yourself? The Collective will not allow that.

For a political philosophy which claims to support the idea of individual freedom, it's astonishing how much stuff they would forbid you to do.




Phred


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #4423735 - 07/19/05 03:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"So Anarchists are indistinguishable from Socialists on that point, as I have maintained for thirty years now. You can't own anything with which you might make stuff -- that right is reserved for "The Collective". You as an individual are allowed to consume, but you as an individual are not allowed to produce. You are allowed to buy a clay pot, but not allowed to make a kiln with which to make clay pots."

Well, you're talking about anarcho-socialism, and I would completely agree with your point. Anarcho-socialism isn't anarchism. It's like some sort of ploy by socialists to co-op the term with their own opinion of what it *should* be.

"For a political philosophy which claims to support the idea of individual freedom, it's astonishing how much stuff they would forbid you to do."

Again, don't mistake the psuedo-anarchist socialist BS with real anarchism. I'm an anarchist in theory and support absolute freedom for every person.


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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: moog]
    #4423797 - 07/19/05 03:59 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Agreed. The "Anarcho-syndicalists" or "Libertarian Socialists" or "Anarcho-socialists" or whichever of a half dozen other misleading labels they apply to themselves in an attempt to disguise the collectivism they are peddling are not in fact Anarchists at all. Murray Rothbard is an Anarchist. Kropotkin, Proudhon and their followers -- by their own definition of "anarchy" -- are not.

The problem is they claim loudly they are, and many people believe them.




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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #4423885 - 07/19/05 04:23 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Proudhoun was not an anarcho-syndicalist or anarcho-socialist. He was a mutualist. He said that property(or "possession" as he called it) should be based on use and occupancy. In other words, you can't "own" unoccupied land or an abandoned building. And you need a government(or some other hired thugs) to protect such "property." Without the threat of force, no one has any reason to take you seriously when you charge rent for the use of such holdings. While Proudhoun suggested that workers control the workplace, he believed this would happen naturally once their bargaining power was increased through mutual banking(a "free credit" system). There is no force involved here. It is simply something that would grow organically within society, and could eventually replace it.


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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Silversoul]
    #4424927 - 07/19/05 08:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

So, as I said, Proudhon was not an anarchist.




Phred


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #4424989 - 07/19/05 09:05 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

True anarchy can not be either socialist, or capatilist. It is simply people interacting of their own free will.


You can't own property because there is no entity to enforce your ownership.

That means that if you have been helping yourself to some coal deposits, or clay, or diamonds, or water, and somebody else comes along and decides to help themselves to it also, there is no "law" that says they can't.


But then again, there's no "law" saying you can't kill them to stop them from accessing that natural resource, or that they can't kill you to gain control of it.


Whomever successfully defends and monopolizes the resource has set themselves up as a force of authority, and is therefore a kind of government.

Anarchy goes flying out the window.



The closest we can get to true Anarchy is to put in place the minimal amount of government that can prevent some other more controlling force from moving in and taking over. I believe you have referred to something like that as a "Minarchy" in the past.

The closest we can get to Anarcho-socialist (Minarcho-Socialist) would be if all the people learned to contribute and benefit from the value added chain without going through some employer as a proxy, thereby reaping the full benefits of the value of their labor.


In other words, everyone would have to be self-employed.


Anarcho-capitalism (Minarcho-Capitalism) would work similarly except the government would enforce property rights, which would mean people could truly "own" oil wells, cow feilds, giant boulders, etc...


Personally, I think natural resources should belong to the collective.


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Edited by Baby_Hitler (07/19/05 09:14 PM)


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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4425748 - 07/19/05 11:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
True anarchy can not be either socialist, or capatilist. It is simply people interacting of their own free will.



Exactly. The only true anarchy is panarchy. You could have pockets of capitalism, socialism, mutualism, etc. Or you could have all of them in the same place, using what would be like having different subscriptions. You could buy stuff from a syndicalist or ParEcon worker collective, or go to the free store to exchange in a gift economy, or go to a capitalist enterprise and shop there. There could even arise entirely new economic systems that haven't been thought of before.

But then, you run into problems when defining property rights. If you take the Rothbardian view, then anything you mix with labor is yours forever until you sell it or bequeath it to someone. If you take Proudhoun's view, then it's yours until you abandon it. If you take an anarcho-socialist view, it may or may not be yours depending on whether it's capital or merchandise. IMO, Proudhoun's view is the most easily upheld in an anarchist society.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: moog]
    #4425837 - 07/20/05 12:13 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

moog said:
"If there is no government, then how could someone own property?"

... if there's no state to recognize property, then property -- either collectively owned or privately owned -- cannot exist except as a voluntary social agreement.



If I have something peaceably obtained or constructed, I can claim it as my property. There is no government required. My property can be stolen, contrary to the laws of morality. Likewise, I can protect my property from unjust acquisition. If I am physically unable to protect my property, that does not negate the fact that it is my property. Whether or not a transgressor acts against the wishes of a government or there is a government are moot points. In societies with government, government often claims a right to a subject's property. This does not mean that the concept of property does not exist, merely that a government has a legal privilege to abrogate that right.

Do not confuse government adjudication and punishment for a transgression of a right with the existence of that right. Societies existed before governments and individuals comprising societies recognized the concept of property before they recognized the concept of a political government. One need look no further than the Bible to find examples of the recognition of property rights even without a state. People had codes of behavior, standards of morality long before the organized plunder of governments.


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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4425915 - 07/20/05 12:37 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

well, that's why I said "as a voluntary social agreement." You can still claim property, of course. you can do whatever you want! But if you're the only one claiming property then the agreement is just with ummm... yourself. :grin:

This is like me saying the name of the animal we call a dog is now gabbleveek...

"If I am physically unable to protect my property, that does not negate the fact that it is my property."
If I'm unable to keep people from calling the animal a dog, that doesn't negate the fact that the animal's name is gabbleveek. :wink:



I think the other concepts of rights that you are talking about would also fall under "voluntary agreements." But sometimes no one else is going to agree with you...


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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4425918 - 07/20/05 12:37 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

How did something become "yours" in the first place.


Particularly large things that have been around for eons before you were born, like a cowfeild. or a cave, or a coal deposit.


How do you obtain the right to ba able to say some area of space on this planet, or any other planet is yours.


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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4425922 - 07/20/05 12:38 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
How did something become "yours" in the first place.


Particularly large things that have been around for eons before you were born, like a cowfeild. or a cave, or a coal deposit.


How do you obtain the right to ba able to say some area of space on this planet, or any other planet is yours.



*insert Georgist comment here*


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: moog]
    #4425953 - 07/20/05 12:47 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

moog said:
well, that's why I said "as a voluntary social agreement."



There is nothing stopping your property being taken under a government except moral inhibitions and force, the same exact things which stop your property from being taken without a government.

Quote:

You can still claim property, of course. you can do whatever you want! But if you're the only one claiming property then the agreement is just with ummm... yourself.



The same applies under a government. Property rights can be and have been enforced in societies without governments. Your inability to grasp the concept not withstanding.

Quote:

This is like me saying the name of the animal we call a dog is now gabbleveek...



You fail to use reason in your arguments. Again, the concept of property PREDATES governments.


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You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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