Home | Community | Message Board


High Mountain Compost
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
A Libertarian Challenge
    #3125612 - 09/12/04 12:42 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

No Treason, Number 6: The Constitution of No Authority Lysander Spooner (1870) p. 17,

It is true that the theory of our Constitution is, that all taxes are paid voluntarily; that our government is a mutual insurance company, voluntarily entered into by the people with each other...

But this theory of our government is wholly different from the practical fact. The fact is that the government, like a highwayman, says to a man: "Your money, or your life." And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat.

The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the roadside, and holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful.

The highwayman takes solely upon himself the responsibility, danger, and crime of his own act. He does not pretend that he has any rightful claim to your money, or that he intends to use it for your own benefit. He does not pretend to be anything but a robber. He has not acquired impudence enough to profess to be merely a "protector," and that he takes men's money against their will, merely to enable him to "protect" those infatuated travellers, who feel perfectly able to protect themselves, or do not appreciate his peculiar system of protection. He is too sensible a man to make such professions as these. Furthermore, having taken your money, he leaves you, as you wish him to do. He does not persist in following you on the road, against your will; assuming to be your rightful "sovereign," on account of the "protection" he affords you. He does not keep "protecting" you by commanding you to bow down and serve him; by requiring you to do this, and forbidding you to do that; by robbing you of more money as often as he finds it for his interest or pleasure to do so; and by branding you as a rebel, a traitor, and an enemy to your country, and shooting you down without mercy, if you dispute his authority, or resist his demands. He is too much of a gentleman to be guilty of such impostures, and insults, and villainies as these. In short, he does not, in addition to robbing you, attempt to make you either his dupe or his slave.


The challenge then. I challenge anyone here to define 'taxation' in a way which makes it fundamentally different from robbery. Have fun.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3125670 - 09/12/04 01:04 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It's different when the state does it. :tongue:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3125762 - 09/12/04 01:29 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I accept the expedient necessity for taxation for certain services. I enter freely and of my own will that some taxation is necessary for the continued operation of a government, which I consider to be a desirable entity. The rest is just quibbling about what a government should be involved in and what it should stay out of. I assert freely of my own will that I have not been brainwashed or am under the control of any higher (or at least other) power that I am aware of.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3125804 - 09/12/04 01:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I accept the expedient necessity for taxation for certain services. I enter freely and of my own will that some taxation is necessary for the continued operation of a government, which I consider to be a desirable entity. The rest is just quibbling about what a government should be involved in and what it should stay out of. I assert freely of my own will that I have not been brainwashed or am under the control of any higher (or at least other) power that I am aware of.



That's all well and good, but irrelevant to what I proposed. Define taxation in a manner that differentiates it from robbery.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3125816 - 09/12/04 01:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I enter freely and of my own will that some taxation is necessary for the continued operation of a government, which I consider to be a desirable entity...... I assert freely of my own will that I have not been brainwashed or am under the control of any higher (or at least other) power that I am aware of.




You can't steal what I freely agree to give. Robbery is stealing.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3125821 - 09/12/04 01:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

But what if someone else doesn't freely agree to it?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3125829 - 09/12/04 01:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

My belief is taxation for constitutionally allowable expenditures is not stealing.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3125844 - 09/12/04 01:57 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Guys, the challenge is to define taxation in a manner that makes it fundamentally different from robbery. Ancillary comments are appreciated but do not respond to the challenge posed.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: silversoul7]
    #3125845 - 09/12/04 01:57 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If your position is that no taxation is accepteble you must leave. Or pay anyway. You have no right to partake of benefits you were not willing to pay for. Libertarianism is NOT anarchism.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3125859 - 09/12/04 02:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Are you aware that the government has other sources of revenue? Fines and a land rent are potential sources of government income which do not meet the traditional definition of taxation. Therefore, the need for some government services is NOT a legitimate excuse for taxation.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: silversoul7]
    #3125899 - 09/12/04 02:21 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

How is a land rent not taxation? It's just a different kind. Fines??? Whatever. The debate is really just about what percentage of the total economy should be controlled by the government


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3125902 - 09/12/04 02:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Zappaisgod, can you give me a definition of taxation that cannot also describe robbery? If so, can you do it. If no, can you cede the point.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3125913 - 09/12/04 02:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

......freely entered into....Why do you keep ignoring this. You also can freely leave.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3125926 - 09/12/04 02:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
How is a land rent not taxation? It's just a different kind. Fines??? Whatever. The debate is really just about what percentage of the total economy should be controlled by the government



Taxes take earned income. Land rent(at least the kind mentioned in the link I provided) takes unearned income. And if I'm not mistaken, the debate here is about whether or not taxation is theft, not how much of the economy should be controlled by the government.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3125927 - 09/12/04 02:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
......freely entered into....Why do you keep ignoring this. You also can freely leave.



You'd make a fine leftist with that argument.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: silversoul7]
    #3125960 - 09/12/04 02:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think you are very much mistaken. The only group I am aware of that espouses zero taxation is the anarchists. You are also mistake about what a tax is. All sales "taxes" are use taxes. They are called taxes. Just because they are not based on income doesn't make them any less a tax.


The left/right thing is not about any taxes at all, it's just what is acceptable cause for taxation.

Not theft....I freely accept the necessity and agree to pay
theft.....I don't accept the necessity and refuse to pay

You're right, the debate here is about whether taxation is theft, not about the degree. That is another debate. Although it is the only one left that matters. If you do not think that you wish to pay for services that you nonetheless take advantage of then YOU are the thief. Taxation is not by definition theft when a group of people agrees to pool their resources for a common goal. It is theft if you are forced to join the club and don't want to pay. But you are not forced to join. LEAVE. Join another club. You are quite free to do that.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3125969 - 09/12/04 02:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Since I don't believe all taxation is stealing, I'll be unable to provide the definition you seem to be looking for.

I'll have to stick with what I said earlier.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3125985 - 09/12/04 03:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Since I don't believe all taxation is stealing, I'll be unable to provide the definition you seem to be looking for.

I'll have to stick with what I said earlier.



You believe this to be a rational, that is based on logic and reason, belief though. Either a definition of taxation that cannot also describe robbery can be provided, or it cannot. It is not a matter of what one believes.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3125992 - 09/12/04 03:08 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

FREELY ENTERED INTO.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3125993 - 09/12/04 03:08 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well, the argument could certainly be made that land rent is taxation. I used to consider it as such until pinky pointed out otherwise. Anyway, regarding your argument about moving elsewhere, rather than try to come up with my own argument against it, I'll just quote another member of this board from one of his many debates with leftists over this same subject:

Quote:

Evolving said:
So if your living in a neighborhood and the mafia comes around (as they did before you were born and before you had any money) and extorts money from you, it's not theft, and it's okay because you can move?




--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Taxation and Theft
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Silversoul 4,796 87 05/07/05 06:26 PM
by Psychoactive1984
* The Fair Tax -
( 1 2 all )
JesusChrist 1,583 20 11/24/04 03:31 PM
by JesusChrist
* Libertarians vs Republicans
( 1 2 3 all )
pattern 2,395 57 04/30/03 01:04 PM
by silversoul7
* hi libertarians Vvellum 751 13 11/04/04 11:24 PM
by Vvellum
* 34 Libertarian arguments debunked silversoul7 1,711 7 05/09/03 07:06 AM
by Phred
* Libertarians?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Libertine 10,692 156 08/17/08 07:28 PM
by ScavengerType
* taxation is theft
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Anonymous 3,934 67 01/21/04 10:05 PM
by The_Red_Crayon
* tax: questions from a libertarian Anonymous 552 8 06/13/03 07:33 AM
by Phred

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
3,811 topic views. 2 members, 1 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Marijuana Demystified
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.056 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 16 queries.