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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4425974 - 07/19/05 10:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

That's precisely part of the reason I'm an anarchist. How can you 'own' anything? It doesn't make sense. How can I own a pencil? The pencil is it's own self-contained entity. I can't own a pencil for the same reason I can't own a person.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: moog]
    #4425986 - 07/19/05 10:55 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You own yourself, therefore you own your labor, therefore you own the value your labor produces.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4425992 - 07/19/05 10:56 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I don't get your point. I think my arguments still stand. :confused:


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Silversoul]
    #4426003 - 07/19/05 10:58 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

By that logic you would own your offspring for as long as you and they live. Unless that's your belief, which is fine with me.

Also, how do I own myself? I'm just a clump of matter. I move this clump of matter called a body around the way I'd move a book around. What's the difference?


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4426017 - 07/19/05 11:01 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
How did something become "yours" in the first place.



Well that really depends upon the type of property we are referring to now, doesn't it?

Quote:

Particularly large things that have been around for eons before you were born, like a cowfeild. or a cave, or a coal deposit.



I am willing to distinguish between that which is obtained through productive effort and that which is not. If I hunt for a deer, create a net from plant fibers I have collected, these are different types of property than land or air or water. For in depth discussions, I would like to refer you an essay about Royal Libertarians or Really Natural Rights, by Dr. Carl S. Milstead, Jr. (the link is a .pdf file) or Thomas Paine's Agrarian Justice or this introduction to Georgist philosophy.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4426171 - 07/19/05 11:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"You fail to use reason in your arguments. Again, the concept of property PREDATES governments. "

You didn't get my point. You make up a concept called property which you believe. So I make up a new name for a dog which I believe. You have the right to believe anything you want, and live out that belief, but everyone else has the right to believe something else. That's the beauty of anarchy. There's beauty in the chaos.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: moog]
    #4426178 - 07/19/05 11:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

The point is that property rights can be upheld by tradition as much as by government.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #4427410 - 07/20/05 08:44 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

So Anarchists are indistinguishable from Socialists on that point, as I have maintained for thirty years now. You can't own anything with which you might make stuff -- that right is reserved for "The Collective". You as an individual are allowed to consume, but you as an individual are not allowed to produce. You are allowed to buy a clay pot, but not allowed to make a kiln with which to make clay pots.





Yes, anarcho-socialism has some similarities when compared with socialism regarding collective property, but you surely agree there are many differences between a centralized system and a polarized system. I don't support anarcho-socialism as a final objective, but i probably see it as a middle point, a gate which we must consider to achieve a totally free economic system.
I think your view about anarcho-socialism is somehow extremist. Contrary to what you say, you are allowed to produce whatever you want but not distribute it the way you want. Means, the restrictions are applied to wealth distribution not wealth production in a private sense. So if you want to make 1 million clay pots, you can, but if the economy doesn't need 1 million clay pots, why would you produce them in the first place ?
The anarchist system is based on cooperation, not competition. So it won't make any sense to produce and distribute more than what is needed. But if you want to make 1 million clay pots and collect water from the rain to yourself or store your food, then you surely can. On the other hand, the capitalist system permits artificial fluctuations on the market and on the value of goods, be it by flooding the market, controlling taxation or exercising speculative politics. Primarily, capitalism depends on the value of capital instead of the value of the production.

Quote:

So much for independent truckers, I guess. Or a farm big enough that you need to hire employees to help you. You have no right to own those things. Only "The Collective" has the right to own those things.




But you are a part of "The Collective" :wink:

Quote:

For a political philosophy which claims to support the idea of individual freedom, it's astonishing how much stuff they would forbid you to do.




Why such a simplistic view ? Anarchism is a collection of several sub-concepts of the whole, just as most socio-political ideologies are.
Your "Stirnerish" argument probably opposes the individualist concept with the anarcho-communist or anarcho-capitalist concept of individual freedom, but that only serves to support the idea that, philosophically, anarchism can't be reduced to its contradictions. Every system is susceptible to its contradictions, anarchism is no exception to the rule. Suppose you trade capitalism for anarchism and it works, you'll won't be living in heaven for sure. Problems would still exist, some would persist but what would be really interesting is trying a different kind of solutions.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: MAIA]
    #4427794 - 07/20/05 10:51 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

MAIA writes:

Quote:

Yes, anarcho-socialism has some similarities when compared with socialism regarding collective property, but you surely agree there are many differences between a centralized system and a polarized system.




No, I don't agree. There is no substantive difference. It makes no difference if we speak of one Collective or several Collectives -- that's a trifling detail. A bear in a frilly skirt is not a ballerina, it's still a bear. The fundamental principle is identical -- The Collective(s) exerts force over individuals to limit the individuals' freedom to act as they see fit in areas of economic activity.

Anarcho-syndicalism (or Libertarian Socialism or Free Communism or whatever) is nothing more than yet another of a seemingly inexhaustible supply of Collectivist schemes, all of which have at their core the same fundamental principle and none of which differ from each other in anything other than the most trivial details.

Quote:

Contrary to what you say, you are allowed to produce whatever you want but not distribute it the way you want.




LOL! And this is supposed to make any kind of substantive difference whatsoever? The fundamental principle is that The Collective has the sole power to decide who may trade with whom.

Quote:

On the other hand, the capitalist system permits artificial fluctuations on the market and on the value of goods, be it by flooding the market, controlling taxation or exercising speculative politics. Primarily, capitalism depends on the value of capital instead of the value of the production.




I don't know what system you describe here. You most certainly are not describing Capitalism.

Quote:

But you are a part of "The Collective"




Speak for yourself, Comrade. I most emphatically am not part of The Collective.

Quote:

Your "Stirnerish" argument probably opposes the individualist concept with the anarcho-communist or anarcho-capitalist concept of individual freedom, but that only serves to support the idea that, philosophically, anarchism can't be reduced to its contradictions.




I don't define Anarcho-syndicalism by its contradictions (and the only thing contradictory about it is it's name, since it bears no realtion to Anarchy whatsoever), but by its precepts -- it is yet another variant of Collectivism or Socialism or Statism. As such, it bears no relation to individual freedom, since there is no individual freedom under Collectivism.

Quote:

Suppose you trade capitalism for anarchism and it works, you'll won't be living in heaven for sure.




No, we'd be living on Earth. Despite almost a century of hard evidence of the folly of Collectivism, some people remain convinced that somewhere, somehow, they'll do all the same things but this time they'll get it right. Since we don't have the option of living on Bizarro Earth, I'll stick with the system which has a relation to reality, thank you.


Phred


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #4428012 - 07/20/05 11:36 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

When you say "collectivism" do you mean only involuntary collectivism, or both voluntary, and involuntary collectivism?


Isn't insurance a form of voluntary collectivism?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4428048 - 07/20/05 11:42 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I have no difficulty with voluntary Collectivism. Hippie communes are an example of this. If a bunch of like-minded people decide to get together and pool their resources while allowing their neighbors to not pool their resources, fine by me.

Note that in a Laissez-faire Capitalist society, no one will stop these people from doing just that. But note that in an Anarcho-syndicalist society, The Collective will disallow anyone from living other than in the manner decreed by The Collective.

This is why Capitalism is the superior system.




Phred


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #4428852 - 07/20/05 02:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

In a Laissez-faire Capitalist society, can someone "own" a natural resource, such as fossil fuel deposits, or rivers?


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #4428941 - 07/20/05 03:13 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This is why Capitalism is the superior system.




Well Phred, 20% of the world is with you. Too bad the rest of the world is exploited just because they're not smart enough to profit from such system.
It's evident we don't agree in many points, if not all, but i'm not that religiously affiliated to a economic system to consider it "the superior system".
I consider better systems, capitalism is better than feudalism, and in the future, a better system than capitalism will come to life. Evolution my friend, changes everything ...
Anyway, to each its own ...

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Invisiblerogue_pixie
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Re: God is an Anarchist. [Re: MAIA]
    #4433521 - 07/21/05 01:12 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I think we all just need a dose of "Crass":

External control are you gonna let them get you?
Do you wanna be a prisoner in the boundaries they set you?
You say you want to ba yourself, by christ do you think they'll let you?
They're out to get you get you get you get you get you get you get you

Hello, hello, hello, this is the Lord God, can you hear?
Hellfire and damnation's what I've got for you down there
On earth I have ambassadors, archbishop, vicar, pope
We'll blind you with morality, you'd best abandon any hope,
We're telling you you'd better pray cos you were born in sin
Right from the start we'll build a cell and then we'll lock you in
We sit in holy judgement condemning those that stray
We offer our forgiveness, but first we'll make you pay

External control are you gonna let them get you?
Do you wanna be a prisoner in the boundaries they set you?
You say you want to be yourself, by christ do you think they'll let you?
They're out to get you get you get you get you get you get you get you

Hello, hello, hello, now here's a massage from your queen
As figurehead of the status quo I set the social scene
I'm most concerned about my people, I want to give them peace
So I'm making sure they stay in line with my army and police
My prisons and my mental homes have ever open doors
For those amongst my subjects who dare to ask for more
Unruliness and disrespect are things I can't allow
So I'll see the peasants grovel if they refuse to bow

External control are you gonna let them get you?
Do you wanna be a prisoner in the boundaries they set you?
You say you want to be yourself, by christ do you think they'll let you?
They're out to get you get you get you get you get you get you get you

Introducing the Prime Sinister, she's a mother to us all
Like the dutch boy's finger in the dyke her arse is in the wall
Holding back the future waiting for the seas to part
If Moses did it with is faith, she'll do it with an army
Who at times of threatened crisis are certain to be there
Guarding national heritage no matter what or where
Palaces for kings and queens, mansions for the rich
Protection for the wealthy, defence of privilege
They've learnt the ropes In Ireland, engaged in civil war
Fighting for the ruling classes in their battle against the poor
So Ireland's just an island? It's an island of the mind
Great Britain? Future? Bollocks, you'd better look behind
Round every other corner stands P.C. 1984
Guardian of the future, he'll implement the law
He's there as a grim reminder that no matter what you do
Big brothers system's always there with his beady eyes on you
From God to local bobby, in home and street and school
They've got your name and number while you've just got their rule
We've got to look for methods to undermine those powers
It's time to change the tables. The future must be ours

Big A, little A, bouncing B
The system might have got you but it won't get me

Be exactly who you want to be, do what you want to do
I am he and she is she but you're the only you
No one else has got your eyes, can see the things you see
It's up to you to change your life and my life's up to me
The problems that you suffer from are problems that you make
The shit we have to climb through is the shit we choose to take
If you don't like the life you live, change it now it's yours
Nothing has effects if you don't recognise the cause
If the programme's not the one you want, get up, turn off the set
It's only you that can decide what life you're gonna get
If you don't like religion you can be the antichrist
If your tired of politics you can be an anarchist
But no one ever changed the church by pulling down a steeple
And you'll never change the system by bombing number ten
Systems just aren't made of bricks they're mostly made of people
You may send them into hiding, but they'll be back again
If you don't like the rules they make, refuse to play their game
If you don't want to be a number, don't give them your name
If you don't want to be caught out, refuse to hear their question
Silence is a virtue, use it for your own protection
They'll try to make you play their game, refuse to show your face
If you don't want to be beaten down, refuse to join their race
Be exactly who you want to be, do what you want to do
I am he and she is she but you're they only you


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP



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