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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Right wing "libertarians"?
    #2853449 - 07/03/04 08:22 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Anyone who has followed political discussion on the net has probably come across people calling themselves libertarians but arguing from a right-wing, pro-capitalist perspective. For most Europeans this is weird, as in Europe the term "libertarian" is almost always used in conjunction with "socialist" or "communist." In the US, though, the Right has partially succeeded in appropriating this term for itself. Even stranger, however, is that a few of these right-wingers have started calling themselves "anarchists" in what must be one of the finest examples of an oxymoron in the English language: 'Anarcho-capitalist'!!

Arguing with fools is seldom rewarded, but to allow their foolishness to go unchallenged risks allowing them to deceive those who are new to anarchism. That's what this section of the anarchist FAQ is for, to show why the claims of these "anarchist" capitalists are false. Anarchism has always been anti-capitalist and any "anarchism" that claims otherwise cannot be part of the anarchist tradition. So this section of the FAQ does not reflect some kind of debate within anarchism, as many of these types like to pretend, but a debate between anarchism and its old enemy, capitalism. In many ways this debate mirrors the one between Peter Kropotkin and Herbert Spencer, an English pro-capitalist, minimal statist, at the turn the 19th century and, as such, it is hardly new.

The "anarcho"-capitalist argument hinges on using the dictionary definition of "anarchism" and/or "anarchy" - they try to define anarchism as being "opposition to government," and nothing else. However, dictionaries are hardly politically sophisticated and their definitions rarely reflect the wide range of ideas associated with political theories and their history. Thus the dictionary "definition" of anarchism will tend to ignore its consistent views on property, exploitation, property and capitalism (ideas easily discovered if actual anarchist texts are read). And, of course, many dictionaries "define" anarchy as "chaos" or "disorder" but we never see "anarcho"-capitalists use that particular definition!

And for this strategy to work, a lot of "inconvenient" history and ideas from all branches of anarchism must be ignored. From individualists like Spooner and Tucker to communists like Kropotkin and Malatesta, anarchists have always been anti-capitalist (see section G for more on the anti-capitalist nature of individualist anarchism). Therefore "anarcho"-capitalists are not anarchists in the same sense that rain is not dry.

http://www.spunk.org/library/intro/faq/sp001547/secFint.html


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2853682 - 07/03/04 12:12 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

why is anarchy incompatible with capitalism?


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OfflineEd1
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2853700 - 07/03/04 12:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)



Edited by Ed1 (07/03/04 12:27 PM)


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: ]
    #2853706 - 07/03/04 12:29 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
why is anarchy incompatible with capitalism?




because capitalism implies ownership, and ownership requires the enforcement of government.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2853708 - 07/03/04 12:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Capitalism merely requires voluntary exchange of goods. Socialism and Communism requires forced sharing of goods. Therefore, capitalism seems to fit much better into the whole anarchist scheme, considering it takes more government to enforce socialism or communism than it does to enforce capitalism.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2853732 - 07/03/04 12:44 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

But don't socialist societies focus more on group ownership which would fall more inline with anarchism than a capitalist society which would focus on a few financialy elite individuals?


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2853775 - 07/03/04 01:05 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

because capitalism implies ownership, and ownership requires the enforcement of government.

that seems about right. property rights (and any other rights), so long as there are those who would violate them, must be preserved by force.


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2853781 - 07/03/04 01:09 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Capitalism merely requires voluntary exchange of goods. Socialism and Communism requires forced sharing of goods. Therefore, capitalism seems to fit much better into the whole anarchist scheme, considering it takes more government to enforce socialism or communism than it does to enforce capitalism.

capitalism doesn't require government itself. it requires an environment where free exchange may occur. unfortunately, creating such an environment, for the time being, requires government. capitalism depends indirectly on government, whereas socialism directly depends on government.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: ]
    #2853904 - 07/03/04 02:13 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

they are both dependant upon government, socialism just admits it.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflinepB0t
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Damn quick reply [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2854654 - 07/03/04 08:11 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Capitalism is not anarchy. From capitalism.org:

Quote:

Anarchism is not a form of capitalism; anarchism is a form of collectivism, where individual rights are subject to the rule of competing gangs.

Under capitalism wouldn't "corporate organizations" be able to provide all of the physical protection necessary for their customers and or employees, making government unnecessary?

Whatever you are proposing it is not capitalism. The proper name for what you purpose is not 'corporations', but street gangs, who fund their business through extortion of their victims (which you would call 'customers'). Government is an agency with a monopoly on the power to legally use force in a specific geographic area. What you purpose are multiple agencies (what you incorrectly accuse to be private corporations) in the same geographic area, that have the power to use force subject to no rule of law: anarchism.

Why can't corporations exist without government?

Under capitalism, corporations are the result of a specific contractual legal framework (provided by government), based on the principle of individual rights. Without government, the distinction between public (state owned) and private no longer exists. Corporations cannot exist without individual rights, and governments to protect those individual rights. [However, keep in mind that corporations are not creatures of the state, no more then individuals are.]

Why is "anarcho-capitalism" a contradiction in terms?

Those who attempt to combine anarchism with capitalism, make the error of confusing the peaceful form of competition of capitalism -- trade, ideas, and dollars -- with the brutal "jungle" form of competition of anarchism -- brutality, whims, and bombs.

Have you ever thought what happens when one 'corporate protection agency' disagrees with another? By what method do they solve their dispute? They do it by competition not with dollars, but with guns. They seek to solve their dispute by resorting to force against each other, i.e., a perpetual state of civil war. Under such a system, which gang wins? The one that is the most brutal.

Anarchism is not a form of capitalism; anarchism is a form of collectivism, where individual rights are subject to the rule of competing gangs. Under such a system, any individual would beg to be placed in the relative safety of a dictatorship.

What is the solution to anarchism?

The only peaceful solution to such disputes is to have one agency with the power to settle those disagreements, according to one set of objectively defined laws -- a government. This is what corporations do under capitalism, when they have a dispute with each other -- they go to court (government).

What about the "competing-governments" concept of "anarcho-capitalists"?

Those who advocate anarchism seek to replace a rule of law, with a rule of the jungle. The kind of 'corporations' they envision are not corporations like those under capitalism (which have no power to resort to force), but outlaw 'competing governments', i.e., gangs.

What are some modern day examples of anarchism?

For those who want an illustration of what happens when two 'competing-governments' are arguing with each other in the same geographical area, I give you the libertarian ideal: Bosnia. This is the result of the anarcho-capitalist's ill-thought out nightmare: a species of collectivism, where one is subject to the whims of the tribe or gang in power.

On a micro-level one can observe anarchism in black markets, where drug dealers compete with each other on the same "turf" to "protect" their interests. It is to subject "might" to "right", that one requires rights, and that one requires a government to protect those rights.




Also, it's funny that people advocating communism/socialism call themselves libertarians, considering that these systems are the opposite of liberty.


Edited by pB0t (07/03/04 09:27 PM)


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: pB0t]
    #2854695 - 07/03/04 08:34 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


The term "libertarian" was also used by anarchists as synonymous for naming their movement, so as to avoid confusion with derogatory uses of anarchy, as synonymous with anomie. Also in the aftermath of the crushing of the Paris Commune in 1871, Anarchism and Anarchists were officially outlawed for decades so anarchists were forced to call their groups and publications by another name - hence the adoption of the French word Libertaire as an alternative term for anarchist. This is the political origin of the word.

Just like the word anarchist, the word "libertarian", at least in Europe, has long been synonymous with the socialist kind of anarchists, which may be specified as libertarian socialists. On the other hand, in the United States, it was rather understood as synonymous with individualist anarchist.





Quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian


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OfflinepB0t
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: cb9fl]
    #2854773 - 07/03/04 09:23 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I'm aware of that, I just think it's funny.


--------------------

5-MeOW-DMT

yageman said:
Dumb kids shouldnt even worry about trying salvia.

Dumb adults might want to give it a shot though.


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: pB0t]
    #2854821 - 07/03/04 10:07 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"right wing 'libertarian'" is a contradiction if you define a 'libertarian' as a 'classical liberal'. (for those confused... the 'liberal' in 'classical liberal' has nothing to do with the term 'liberal' as it's used by modern socialists who usurped the term. "Liberal' originates from the word 'liberty'. People in the US and UK, these days tend to view 'liberal' parties as 'Democrat' and 'Labour'.

It's simply re-defining a word.

Alex, you state, " For most Europeans this is weird, as in Europe the term "libertarian" is almost always used in conjunction with "socialist" or "communist."'

I lived in France for a few years. Granted, that was a decade ago and things may have changed but... Where in Europe is 'libertarian' viewed as 'socialist' or (gasp) 'communist'?

Alex, you also state, "In the US, though, the Right has partially succeeded in appropriating this term for itself."

Only for those who are ignorant. (and there are many in my country, the USA, who are ignorant. As I've said before 'baaahhh...baahhhh")

(nfc)


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


Edited by grib (07/03/04 10:18 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: grib]
    #2858531 - 07/05/04 12:38 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Do you have many examples of extreme capitalists calling themselves libertarian or anarchists prior to the last few decades? The bulk of libertarian history is of the far-left, not capitalists.

Here's a libertarian statement from 1926, don't sound too much like capitalists to me:

It is very significant that, in spite of the strength and incontestably positive character of libertarian ideas, and in spite of the forthrightness and integrity of anarchist positions in the facing up to the social revolution, and finally the heroism and innumerable sacrifices borne by the anarchists in the struggle for libertarian communism, the anarchist movement remains weak despite everything, and has appeared, very often, in the history of working class struggles as a small event, an episode, and not an important factor.

This contradiction between the positive and incontestable substance of libertarian ideas, and the miserable state in which the anarchist movement vegetates, has its explanation in a number of causes, of which the most important, the principal, is the absence of organisational principles and practices in the anarchist movement

Long Live the Social Revolution of the Workers of the World!



http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/platform/introduction.htm


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2858790 - 07/05/04 03:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Do you have many examples of extreme capitalists calling themselves libertarian or anarchists prior to the last few decades?

semantics. what does any of this have to do with anything?


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2860911 - 07/06/04 09:44 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

save one or two posters (ancalagon and evolving), why are the so-called "libertarians" on this board are the ones who are first to defend Bush and rarely ever criticize him?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2860928 - 07/06/04 10:09 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

You should not confuse correcting errors and half-truths for defending someone.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2860948 - 07/06/04 10:25 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Besides evolving and ancalagon, where is the criticism of Bush then? Please dont point me to some random, three-line post from two months ago.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2860957 - 07/06/04 10:29 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

maybe if you point out who is "defending" Bush this can easily be accomplished.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2860962 - 07/06/04 10:31 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:


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