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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Right wing "libertarians"?
    #2853449 - 07/03/04 08:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Anyone who has followed political discussion on the net has probably come across people calling themselves libertarians but arguing from a right-wing, pro-capitalist perspective. For most Europeans this is weird, as in Europe the term "libertarian" is almost always used in conjunction with "socialist" or "communist." In the US, though, the Right has partially succeeded in appropriating this term for itself. Even stranger, however, is that a few of these right-wingers have started calling themselves "anarchists" in what must be one of the finest examples of an oxymoron in the English language: 'Anarcho-capitalist'!!

Arguing with fools is seldom rewarded, but to allow their foolishness to go unchallenged risks allowing them to deceive those who are new to anarchism. That's what this section of the anarchist FAQ is for, to show why the claims of these "anarchist" capitalists are false. Anarchism has always been anti-capitalist and any "anarchism" that claims otherwise cannot be part of the anarchist tradition. So this section of the FAQ does not reflect some kind of debate within anarchism, as many of these types like to pretend, but a debate between anarchism and its old enemy, capitalism. In many ways this debate mirrors the one between Peter Kropotkin and Herbert Spencer, an English pro-capitalist, minimal statist, at the turn the 19th century and, as such, it is hardly new.

The "anarcho"-capitalist argument hinges on using the dictionary definition of "anarchism" and/or "anarchy" - they try to define anarchism as being "opposition to government," and nothing else. However, dictionaries are hardly politically sophisticated and their definitions rarely reflect the wide range of ideas associated with political theories and their history. Thus the dictionary "definition" of anarchism will tend to ignore its consistent views on property, exploitation, property and capitalism (ideas easily discovered if actual anarchist texts are read). And, of course, many dictionaries "define" anarchy as "chaos" or "disorder" but we never see "anarcho"-capitalists use that particular definition!

And for this strategy to work, a lot of "inconvenient" history and ideas from all branches of anarchism must be ignored. From individualists like Spooner and Tucker to communists like Kropotkin and Malatesta, anarchists have always been anti-capitalist (see section G for more on the anti-capitalist nature of individualist anarchism). Therefore "anarcho"-capitalists are not anarchists in the same sense that rain is not dry.

http://www.spunk.org/library/intro/faq/sp001547/secFint.html


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2853682 - 07/03/04 12:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

why is anarchy incompatible with capitalism?


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OfflineEd1
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2853700 - 07/03/04 12:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)



Edited by Ed1 (07/03/04 12:27 PM)


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: ]
    #2853706 - 07/03/04 12:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
why is anarchy incompatible with capitalism?




because capitalism implies ownership, and ownership requires the enforcement of government.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2853708 - 07/03/04 12:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Capitalism merely requires voluntary exchange of goods. Socialism and Communism requires forced sharing of goods. Therefore, capitalism seems to fit much better into the whole anarchist scheme, considering it takes more government to enforce socialism or communism than it does to enforce capitalism.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2853732 - 07/03/04 12:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

But don't socialist societies focus more on group ownership which would fall more inline with anarchism than a capitalist society which would focus on a few financialy elite individuals?


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2853775 - 07/03/04 01:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

because capitalism implies ownership, and ownership requires the enforcement of government.

that seems about right. property rights (and any other rights), so long as there are those who would violate them, must be preserved by force.


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2853781 - 07/03/04 01:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Capitalism merely requires voluntary exchange of goods. Socialism and Communism requires forced sharing of goods. Therefore, capitalism seems to fit much better into the whole anarchist scheme, considering it takes more government to enforce socialism or communism than it does to enforce capitalism.

capitalism doesn't require government itself. it requires an environment where free exchange may occur. unfortunately, creating such an environment, for the time being, requires government. capitalism depends indirectly on government, whereas socialism directly depends on government.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: ]
    #2853904 - 07/03/04 02:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

they are both dependant upon government, socialism just admits it.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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InvisiblepB0t
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Damn quick reply *DELETED* [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2854654 - 07/03/04 08:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .



Edited by pB0t (07/03/04 09:27 PM)


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: pB0t]
    #2854695 - 07/03/04 08:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


The term "libertarian" was also used by anarchists as synonymous for naming their movement, so as to avoid confusion with derogatory uses of anarchy, as synonymous with anomie. Also in the aftermath of the crushing of the Paris Commune in 1871, Anarchism and Anarchists were officially outlawed for decades so anarchists were forced to call their groups and publications by another name - hence the adoption of the French word Libertaire as an alternative term for anarchist. This is the political origin of the word.

Just like the word anarchist, the word "libertarian", at least in Europe, has long been synonymous with the socialist kind of anarchists, which may be specified as libertarian socialists. On the other hand, in the United States, it was rather understood as synonymous with individualist anarchist.





Quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian


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InvisiblepB0t
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? *DELETED* [Re: newuser1492]
    #2854773 - 07/03/04 09:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .



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Offlinegrib
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: pB0t]
    #2854821 - 07/03/04 10:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"right wing 'libertarian'" is a contradiction if you define a 'libertarian' as a 'classical liberal'. (for those confused... the 'liberal' in 'classical liberal' has nothing to do with the term 'liberal' as it's used by modern socialists who usurped the term. "Liberal' originates from the word 'liberty'. People in the US and UK, these days tend to view 'liberal' parties as 'Democrat' and 'Labour'.

It's simply re-defining a word.

Alex, you state, " For most Europeans this is weird, as in Europe the term "libertarian" is almost always used in conjunction with "socialist" or "communist."'

I lived in France for a few years. Granted, that was a decade ago and things may have changed but... Where in Europe is 'libertarian' viewed as 'socialist' or (gasp) 'communist'?

Alex, you also state, "In the US, though, the Right has partially succeeded in appropriating this term for itself."

Only for those who are ignorant. (and there are many in my country, the USA, who are ignorant. As I've said before 'baaahhh...baahhhh")

(nfc)


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


Edited by grib (07/03/04 10:18 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: grib]
    #2858531 - 07/05/04 12:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Do you have many examples of extreme capitalists calling themselves libertarian or anarchists prior to the last few decades? The bulk of libertarian history is of the far-left, not capitalists.

Here's a libertarian statement from 1926, don't sound too much like capitalists to me:

It is very significant that, in spite of the strength and incontestably positive character of libertarian ideas, and in spite of the forthrightness and integrity of anarchist positions in the facing up to the social revolution, and finally the heroism and innumerable sacrifices borne by the anarchists in the struggle for libertarian communism, the anarchist movement remains weak despite everything, and has appeared, very often, in the history of working class struggles as a small event, an episode, and not an important factor.

This contradiction between the positive and incontestable substance of libertarian ideas, and the miserable state in which the anarchist movement vegetates, has its explanation in a number of causes, of which the most important, the principal, is the absence of organisational principles and practices in the anarchist movement

Long Live the Social Revolution of the Workers of the World!



http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/platform/introduction.htm


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2858790 - 07/05/04 03:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Do you have many examples of extreme capitalists calling themselves libertarian or anarchists prior to the last few decades?

semantics. what does any of this have to do with anything?


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2860911 - 07/06/04 09:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

save one or two posters (ancalagon and evolving), why are the so-called "libertarians" on this board are the ones who are first to defend Bush and rarely ever criticize him?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2860928 - 07/06/04 10:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You should not confuse correcting errors and half-truths for defending someone.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2860948 - 07/06/04 10:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Besides evolving and ancalagon, where is the criticism of Bush then? Please dont point me to some random, three-line post from two months ago.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2860957 - 07/06/04 10:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

maybe if you point out who is "defending" Bush this can easily be accomplished.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2860962 - 07/06/04 10:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2860964 - 07/06/04 10:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So let's sum up what we've learned about you today.

1. Everyone who doesn't agree with you is a redneck.
2. You have no wish to be confused by facts.

Well OK then.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2860971 - 07/06/04 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

weren't these the same people that were "defending" muslim extremists? :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2860978 - 07/06/04 10:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

here is my question again, in case ya'll missed it:

Quote:

Besides evolving and ancalagon, where is the criticism of Bush then? Please dont point me to some random, three-line post from two months ago.




I'll be waiting for answer and some links.


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2860982 - 07/06/04 10:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

save one or two posters (ancalagon and evolving), why are the so-called "libertarians" on this board are the ones who are first to defend Bush and rarely ever criticize him?

defending bush and pointing out bullshit are two different things.

the libertarians here are not happy with mr. bush. i think you'll find that most of the libertarians are unhappy with his expansion of the federal government, enormous medicare package, meddling with free speech, failure to veto spending bill after spending bill after spending bill, the steel tariffs, etc. etc. that won't keep them from pointing out that the photo of him holding up capped binoculars is a fake, his "ties to hitler" mean zilch, or that john kerry fell of his bike too; when that's all certain people on this board can come up with.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2860995 - 07/06/04 10:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'll be waiting for answer and some links




links to what?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: ]
    #2860996 - 07/06/04 10:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

the libertarians here are not happy with mr. bush. i think you'll find that most of the libertarians are unhappy with his expansion of the federal government, enormous medicare package, meddling with free speech, failure to veto spending bill after spending bill after spending bill, the steel tariffs, etc. etc.




Correct. I am just curious why those "libertarians" here who supposedly do not support these initiatives rarely, if ever, ever speak up and criticize Bush.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: ]
    #2861005 - 07/06/04 10:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


defending bush and pointing out bullshit are two different things.




See the and rarely ever criticize him part of my original post.

Quote:

save one or two posters (ancalagon and evolving), why are the so-called "libertarians" on this board are the ones who are first to defend Bush and rarely ever criticize him?




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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2861016 - 07/06/04 11:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

let's see what i'm upset with Bush about:

Foreign spending
Government Spending
Larger more intrusive government - Patriot act, more police power (scary as hell)
Anti-american accusations (with us or against us speech)
His accusations that he's a conservative.
WMD.

Let's see what people on this site say that are BS:

Bush = Hitler
Bush Knew
America is evil
Understanding muslim extremists reasons.
Editorials taken as fact

Those are just a few, i'm sure there are plenty more.

who are these people defending him?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2861019 - 07/06/04 11:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I see. Since it's not done often enough to suit YOU, then that's a sign that libertarians = Bush supporters.

Maybe the libertarians here missed the memo stating it's all about you and the henceforth all posters are required to meet bio's standards of bashing.

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2861029 - 07/06/04 11:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2861033 - 07/06/04 11:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

well, the typical practice of issue-based forums on messageboards is to create threads about actions, issues, and opinions that you agree or disagree with. I see very little threads by the so-called libertarians on this board that criticize Bush for the issues listed above by mushmaster and innvertigo.


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2861036 - 07/06/04 11:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Correct. I am just curious why those "libertarians" here who supposedly do not support these initiatives rarely, if ever, ever speak up and criticize Bush.

for the same reason that there are very few threads created in criticism of drug prohibition: most of us agree about it. people don't make threads about topics for which there is general agreement. the libertarians here do have problems with policies of george bush.

here's my (abbreviated) list:

1. appointing john ashcroft
2. supporting attacks on free speech
3. supporting drug prohibition
4. invading iraq
5. supporting the patriot act in its entirety
6. shameless misuse of words like "liberty" and "freedom" in his speeches.
7. support of programs which obscure the distinction between church and state.
8. enormous spending, medicare in particular.

i think that most of the libertarians here agree on all of these points. the thing is that so does just about everyone else, so why bother posting about it?

now if one the socialists makes a post about bush's "ties to hitler" and a libertarian member refutes the importance or accuracy of the claims, this isn't "defending bush" any more than if a libertarian created a thread blasting bush's medicare spending and a socialist spoke up in support of it.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: ]
    #2861044 - 07/06/04 11:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

so why bother posting about it?



Why to make bio happy of course.

Wait a minute.... are you saying you didn't get the memo either?

Those damn memo senders! Sack em' all!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2861055 - 07/06/04 11:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Wait a minute.... are you saying you didn't get the memo either?

just got it. i'll be back in a bit. i'm off to find a terrorist mastermind for my avatar.  :wink:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2861056 - 07/06/04 11:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I never got a memo. :frown:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: ]
    #2861093 - 07/06/04 11:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I see many threads throughout the Shroomery regarding drug prohibition.

I think something as complex as immigration, church/state, medicare, and the invasion of iraq are not topics of "general agreement" nor are they topics that can be disregarded as being unnecessary - even among libertarians. are you all made of the same cookie-cutter? of course not.

I would like to hear more of the libertarian critique of the Bush administration. I wish ya'll would step up the plate.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2861124 - 07/06/04 12:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
Besides evolving and ancalagon, where is the criticism of Bush then?



/me raises hand

/also points to grib, mushmaster, and whiterasta


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2861434 - 07/06/04 02:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you!


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Vvellum]
    #2862583 - 07/06/04 09:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
save one or two posters (ancalagon and evolving), why are the so-called "libertarians" on this board are the ones who are first to defend Bush and rarely ever criticize him?



Because half the threads on this forum are bashing Bush. I rarely have anything to add and I don't defend him so much as I point out false allegations against him. For the record I am willing to state that I DO NOT LIKE BUSH. That does not mean I think he planned the terrorists attacks or knew about them or that he rapes and murders cute little puppies in the Lincoln bedroom. Pointing out stupid or inaccurate allegations does not equal defending Bush.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: z@z.com]
    #2863935 - 07/07/04 06:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Pointing out stupid or inaccurate allegations does not equal defending Bush. 




Ditto. :thumbup:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: ]
    #2868576 - 07/08/04 01:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

invading iraq

Hang on mush, which of the neolibertarians were against invading Iraq?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2868590 - 07/08/04 01:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
invading iraq

Hang on mush, which of the neolibertarians were against invading Iraq?



/raises hand


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2868676 - 07/08/04 02:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well PinochhiAl, in the same thread you said "The only figure that rings true to me is the one aid agencies have mentioned about 10 million innocent Iraqi's starving to death in the aftermath of the bombing."

I said "I still have some hope there will be no war."
web page

Of course then there was this one "Well doodie, being as I've said all along I hope there wouldn't be a war, let's see if you can find where I said the bombing was justified."
web page


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2872484 - 07/09/04 12:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Still want to play the silly names card? How tiresome. Lets hope Shroomism puts a stop to it soon.

Ok (Luvdemlies), here's the question for you again, which neolibertarian was AGAINST invading Iraq?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2872767 - 07/09/04 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Before anyone can answer your question, you have to define your term. What is a neolibertarian? Who is a neolibertarian in your clouded mind?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2872805 - 07/09/04 02:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'll play along PinochhiAl,

OK, what is a neolibertarian and who here do you see as one?

And yet again, please provide proof of my having lied. I've provided it for your lies, at your request I might add. Feel free to do the same.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2872917 - 07/09/04 02:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I thought we were neo-cons?  I'm confused. :confused:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2872946 - 07/09/04 03:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Shhhhh.

neolibertarians is his "phrase-o-the-week".

Or to be more accurate..... "phrase-o-the-weak".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2873049 - 07/09/04 03:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

we should place bets to see what our next designation's going to be.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2873059 - 07/09/04 03:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I couldn't begin to guess but it's a safe bet it'll both sound stupid and be moronic.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2873097 - 07/09/04 03:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

neo-___________(fill in the blank)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2875705 - 07/10/04 12:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

neo is the only hope we have of defeating the matrix


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2877372 - 07/11/04 05:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'll play along PinochhiAl

Don't you ever feel silly when you type in that name? Don't you think it's a little childish for someone of your age?

please provide proof of my having lied
I've provided it for your lies


There's your latest lie. You'll be telling us to prove there are no WMD in Iraq next... :rolleyes:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2877450 - 07/11/04 07:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Don't you ever feel silly when you type in that name? Don't you think it's a little childish for someone of your age?



No, I don't. Coming from the guy who types in what you do, that reeks of hypocrisy and dishonesty.


Quote:

There's your latest lie.



Actually, no. That'd be yours. Try again.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2879028 - 07/11/04 07:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hang on mush, which of the neolibertarians were against invading Iraq?

libertarians on iraq


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2881240 - 07/12/04 06:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

neo is the only hope we have of defeating the matrix




this is true. :shiftyeyes:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2884353 - 07/13/04 12:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Dr. J busted my gut with the matrix plug. Man what a mindfuck this thread is. People are complex and they don't fall into cookie cutter categories.

I am a conservative with a libertarian bent. I like small government. I am liberal on social issues like abortion, drugs and gay marriage, because I don't think that the government should be involved in them in the first place.

I do believe in the war on terror, and that is why I like Bush. Other than that, I think his domestic policies are a disaster. Conservatives have preached smaller government, but Republicans have held Congress for many years now and they have failed to deliver. That makes me sick, because I have been sold a bill of goods and they didn't deliver. I feel I don't have a party that represents my values of small government and individual liberty, and that is why libertarians appeal to me.

Some of you guys are really into the libertarian thing. I haven't read all the threads, because I don't know a lot specifically about it. I don't want to get in over my head and show my ignorance of the topic. If I joined the libertarian party and voted for their candidates, I feel I would be wasting my vote.

I am also a fierce capitalist. I own my own business. I believe in free markets and free trade. So I am a fiscally conservative capitalist with a libertarian bent. I guess I might be a close approximation to being a "Right Wing Libertarian". At least that is my best guess.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2885053 - 07/13/04 08:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If I joined the libertarian party and voted for their candidates, I feel I would be wasting my vote.



Why do you feel you'd be wasting your vote? You just made it abundantly clear you're much more of a libertarian than anything else. One of the major parties is going to be in power regardless and they'd both have done, with few exceptions, the same exact things while in office. Voting Republican no longer sends a message for smaller government...not even close. The only way to get that message across is to vote libertarian. Remember, the lesser of two evils is STILL evil.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2885091 - 07/13/04 08:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I voted for Bush in the last election, I feel I wasted my vote.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2885213 - 07/13/04 10:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hey Alex.

Anarchism and capitalism are not collided. Actually, it seems to be pretty good combination.

About liberwhatever shit US party. These guys are history by their understanding of politcs.

That is the reason they never got a chance and they will never get the chance.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Crobih]
    #2885225 - 07/13/04 10:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:confused: :wtf:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Crobih]
    #2885244 - 07/13/04 10:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

About liberwhatever shit US party. These guys are history by their understanding of politcs.

That is the reason they never got a chance and they will never get the chance.



Feel free to elaborate.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2885248 - 07/13/04 10:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hehe.

Do not overheat innvertigo. Step by step is the onle way to avoid it :smile:


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2885278 - 07/13/04 11:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It is actually pretty wide range thing to elaborate it here.

Though, it is enough to see the site of this libertarian party that does not even have a public forum, the thing that practically enables freedom of information, thing these people "as if" fight for.

Though, true problems gets much deeper, touching your stuff under nick, "agnostic libertarian".


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: Crobih]
    #2885496 - 07/13/04 12:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It is actually pretty wide range thing to elaborate it here.



I believe that is the function of 'here', so that we can elaborate upon and discuss 'wide range thing' such as the stupidity you perceive in the libertarian party.

Quote:


Though, it is enough to see the site of this libertarian party that does not even have a public forum, the thing that practically enables freedom of information, thing these people "as if" fight for.




I just went to the Republican Party Website, the Democrat Party Website, and the Green Party Website. None of them have forums either, not that I hold those parties in high regard. There are innumerable forums throughout the internet, why does a party not having an official forum(Gee, I wonder if the discussion on said forums would be productive with around 99% of participants being LP members) make it stupid? Surely you have better reasons then that for the party's stupidity?

Quote:

Though, true problems gets much deeper, touching your stuff under nick, "agnostic libertarian".



Why won't/can't you elaborate on these true problems which get much deeper? Wish I had a Babel Fish to interpret the second part of that sentance.

Edit - I'd like to point out that the LP Prez Candidate runs an extremely active and popular blog through his official presidential website. I believe the major parties do this as well...what I DON'T believe they do is personally record audio-blogs every week on the events of each specific day. FYI, etc.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


Edited by Ancalagon (07/13/04 12:31 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Right wing "libertarians"? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2885514 - 07/13/04 12:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I totally agree, JC. Who cares about labels anyway? The only reason we now use the word "libertarian" to describe anarcho-capitalists anyway is cuz the quasi-socialists stole the term "liberal" from us.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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