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Anonymous

libertarianism is a political ideology of peace
    #1866698 - 08/30/03 08:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

it's the only system in which the only time the government lays it's hands on you is if you've first laid your hand on someone else.

if you're a peaceful citizen, no violence will come your way from the government.

see a cop? don't worry. he's not there to do anything but keep the peace.


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: ]
    #1866707 - 08/30/03 08:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

non-initiation of force doctrine.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: ]
    #1866724 - 08/30/03 09:01 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Even though we all bitch back and forth,I think almost every one in this forum is a social libertarian by nature,it's just that some of us see problems with the economical aspects,specifically free for all capitalism.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: monoamine]
    #1866745 - 08/30/03 09:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

see... to me... that's an inconsistancy. liberty... but only if you're the only person involved.

the difference between 'social' liberty and 'economic' liberty is that the former involves actions which affect only the actor. the latter involves voluntary transactions between multiple individuals.

either way, non-consenting individuals are not subject to coercion. who is the victim, and what is the crime, when two individuals agree to a voluntary transaction?


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: ]
    #1866762 - 08/30/03 09:19 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I don't see corporations as individual people,so I don't think they should be treated like people,which they often are under the law.

In laissez faire,who is going to keep corporations from polluting the shit out of the environment and paying slave labor wages?


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: monoamine]
    #1867939 - 08/31/03 11:28 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

^^^Exactly. Big business is just as much of a threat as big government. If the government won't keep the corporations in check, who will?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: silversoul7]
    #1868862 - 08/31/03 06:49 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Corporations are LEGAL entities. Meaning, they are sanctioned by THE GOVERNMENT. If companies were not LEGALLY INCORPORATED, all individuals making up the organizations would not enjoy the extra LEGAL benefits granted BY THE GOVERNMENT, they would be treated as regular individuals, engaged in a common economic endeavor, nothing more.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: Autonomous]
    #1869209 - 08/31/03 09:21 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Fair enough. Tell me this, then: Will there be environmental regulations under a libertarian government?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: silversoul7]
    #1869244 - 08/31/03 09:38 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

if somebody poisons the air you breathe, the water you drink, or the land you live on, they've initiated force against you.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: ]
    #1869295 - 08/31/03 10:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds good. Another thing I don't like about libertarianism, tho, is that it leaves no safety net for those who lose their jobs or otherwise left poor. Despite conservative mythology, not all poor people are lazy. Some just need some time to get back on their feet, especially when the job market is down. If somehow a sufficient safety net can be provided without using taxpayer money, I'm all for it, but if it can't, I'd prefer that it be funded by whatever means necessary.

Same thing with public education. Now, I realize that public education is shitty in America, but other countries have excellent public schools. I don't think private education can solve the problems of public education.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: silversoul7]
    #1869304 - 08/31/03 10:10 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

one more... and it's 7000. crazy.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: ]
    #1869689 - 09/01/03 12:16 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

libertarianism is a political ideology of peace

This article posted by another member demonstrates your assertion is not quite accurate.



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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: Xochitl]
    #1870376 - 09/01/03 05:00 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

libertarianism is a political ideology of peace

This article posted by another member demonstrates your assertion is not quite accurate.



What do you mean? That article doesn't even mention libertarianism anywhere.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1871090 - 09/01/03 02:37 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

yes it does; it is an argument against right-wing libertarianism/coporatism and their illusion of a free market.





--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: Xochitl]
    #1871147 - 09/01/03 02:55 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

the jist of the article seems to be that historically speaking, alot of wealth was originally obtained through coercion. because much of that same wealth (or wealth created by it) is what's keeping the wealthy wealthy today, even a system of free trade has foundations in coercion. this is probably true to an extent, but i don't think much can really be done about it.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: ]
    #1871246 - 09/01/03 03:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

this is probably true to an extent, but i don't think much can really be done about it.

The article subtly proposes the true elimination of state intervention into the market (as opposed to the common righ-wing libertarian fallacy of "laissez-faire" corporatist privatization) coupled with mutualist banking for all as a route to a true market where individuals can engage themselves freely. Look into mutualism as a solution :thumbup:

peace man :smile:



   


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: ]
    #1872965 - 09/02/03 01:34 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

My take on libertarianism.

It may be a fairly stable system, but it would undoubtably develop a heavy class division.

Then again, with the pace of societal change speeding up, power may easily shift over to a single corporation. We've got some huge corporations nowadays, and it's not unconceivable that with all the governmental duties being privatized, one of these enormous companies would start buying up the smaller companies that take over. The libertarian ideals would probably be corrupted.

So maybe it's not really any less naive than communism. What do I know, I'm drunk.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: Phluck]
    #1873386 - 09/02/03 04:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

If lots of people become totally dependent on a single corporation, they don't really have a choice about accepting the terms of that corporation. There is no "take it or leave it", only "take it". In such a situation libertarianism is not helpful at all.

The solution is to make sure that people always have resources that enable them to decline the "take it" choice. One method to accomplish that is to entitle everyone to a permanent share of the planet. Geolibertarians make a very convincing argument for this, check out this essay about the differences between geolibertarians and what they call "royal libertarians". The Georgist Proposal is also about this (I'm too lazy now to put in a link to that thread).


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1876158 - 09/03/03 01:20 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I've never heard of the  Georgist Proposal before I read about it in that thread, but I think it sounds like a great idea.  :thumbup: 


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: libertarianism is a political ideology of peace [Re: Cornholio]
    #1876326 - 09/03/03 02:35 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

^^^I agree wholeheartedly.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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