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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2840989 -

pinksharkmark said:
Baby_Hitler writes:

Why not?

No Libertarian I've ever met (or read) would advocate Collectivist communities. The fact that Libertarians recognize there may be people living in a Capitalist country who would feel comfortable choosing to pool their possessions and live communally, and that Libertarians would support the right of those individuals to follow that course of action (to a point) doesn't make those Libertarians "Libertarian Socialists", it makes them Libertarians.

pinky



How would a true libertarian feel about open source software?


Is open source socialism/collectivism?


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2841337 -

classic libertarian rhetoric, making mountains out of molehills.

i don't think it's making a mountain out of a molehill at all. the most fundamental human freedom of action is of action required to sustain life, meaning productive work and exchange. i don't feel that a state which is allowed to infringe upon this freedom is libertarian in the least.

if someone does not like the system, they may renounce citizenship and leave. simple as that.

excellent. than the whole arrangement is voluntary after all? are people arrested, fined, or exiled as a punishment for cancelling this "contract"?

of course, that's why i wouldnt support full-on communism and command economies.

few people do these days. in the earlier days of socialism, there were those who felt that a centrally controlled economy could provide both more equality and overall prosperity. some felt that "uncoordinated" market activity was less efficient than "planned" industry could be. fortunately most people see that idea for what it's worth these days and those on the left tend to favor "market socialism", hoping to combine the proven efficiency of the free market with the equality provided by socialism.

it works a little better, but not by much. even market socialists tend to favor protective tariffs, price floors\ceilings, heavy taxes, etc. all of these have detrimental effects on the market.

force is employed against peaceful individuals, and in the course of making a living, some are helped at the expense of others, the net result being negative. for ethical and practical reasons, i could not support any such system, and i also don't think that any such system could ever bear the name "libertarian".


how do will this society raise money for the military?

the most non-forceful way of obtaining revenue i can think of is contract insurance. i was thinking about it today though and there are problems even with that, but that is for another thread.

the term "libertarian socialism" describes a certain type of socialism in which liberty is retained unless it has to do with wealth. i understand that, and i can understand why the term "libertarian" was used to describe the type of socialism it refers to. the debate over the meaningulness of the distinction (which has made up the entirety of the discussion in this thread) is really second to the point i was trying to make in the beginning. "libertarian socialism" is not a form of libertarianism. it has nothing to do with libertarianism. it is a form of socialism. that much has been demonstrated pretty well here.

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2842182 -

Quote:
if someone does not like the system, they may renounce citizenship and leave. simple as that.


excellent. than the whole arrangement is voluntary after all? are people arrested, fined, or exiled as a punishment for cancelling this "contract"?


since when is complying with a contract 'voluntary'? The theory is that by choosing to bring their child up in a country, as guardians, the parents are 'signing' the social contract for their child until he/she chooses to opt out by renouncing citizenship. until then, there is tacit consent to the social contract with the government and its laws.

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2848265 -

since when is complying with a contract 'voluntary'? The theory is that by choosing to bring their child up in a country, as guardians, the parents are 'signing' the social contract for their child until he/she chooses to opt out by renouncing citizenship. until then, there is tacit consent to the social contract with the government and its laws.

follow that to its logical conclusion and you have a solid defense of tyranny.

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2849685 -

Follow it to it's "logical conclusion" for us. See how you make out.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2850095 -

In tyrannies it is usually extremely difficult to just leave the country because you don't like the politics. Plus the ideology of a social contract includes democratic representation. If people vote for a tyranny and choose to stay there in that tyranny...so be it I guess.

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Xlea321]
    #2853822 -

Follow it to it's "logical conclusion" for us. See how you make out.

ok.

taoteching is saying that by being born into a country, you give tacit consent (via your parents) to be a subject of the state and its authority. if you cannot see how that is a defense of tyranny, i don't suppose there's much helping you, but i'll point out the problems in the line of reasoning anyway.

we have to conclude that even a population under grinding oppression has also signed an invisible "contract" with its ruler, legitimizing its authority. that is plain as day.

and do parents have any right to make contracts such as these on behalf of their children? can a parent sell a child into slavery?

and the real kicker:

the government is the enforcer of all contracts in the land. it therefore cannot itself be bound to any contract. any contract must be mutually binding. the "social contract" is not. the state may do whatever it pleases. the citizens must obey the state, or leave the country (if they are even allowed).

the idea of a "social contract" is really a defense of unlimited government power.

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2854797 -

Well said. Extremely well said. Bravo!

pinky


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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2855290 -

So would you say unlimited government power was bad?


What about unlimited financial power?


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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2858809 -

How would a true libertarian feel about open source software?

i love it.

Is open source socialism/collectivism?

nope.

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2858811 -

So would you say unlimited government power was bad?

absolutely.


What about unlimited financial power?

impossible. the very idea of "unlimited financial power" is a contraction.

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2858939 -

the very idea of "unlimited financial power" is a contraction.

Please explain!


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2859108 -

Yes, Please!


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: trendal]
    #2859475 -

"unlimited financial power" means unlimited wealth. wealth is, by definition, limited.

no person can have unlimited financial power. a person may have great financial power. they may be extremely wealthy... but they cannot be unlimitedly wealthy.

if someone has an extremely large amount of wealth... who is harmed?

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2868599 -

if you cannot see how that is a defense of tyranny

Depends if the country is a tyranny or not.

we have to conclude that even a population under grinding oppression has also signed an invisible "contract" with its ruler, legitimizing its authority

Not sure about that mush. There's a difference between not approving of a government and being able to mount a revolution. Because the people don't launch a revolution every week doesn't mean they've signed an "invisible contract".

the state may do whatever it pleases. the citizens must obey the state, or leave the country

I presume you've heard of elections?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Xlea321]
    #2869076 -

Alex123 said:
Because the people don't launch a revolution every week doesn't mean they've signed an "invisible contract".


:thumbup:  There is no 'social contract' this is merely a made up notion, disseminated and perpetuated by the ruling elite, their lackeys, their hired mouth pieces and those who have been brainwashed by the afore mentioned groups.  This is the modern equivalent of the 'divine right of kings' and should be recognized for what it is - a lie.

Quote:
I presume you've heard of elections?


I presume you've heard of vote tampering, electronic voting, courts over-ruling the will of the people and majorities suppressing minorities?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Xlea321]
    #2879074 -

Depends if the country is a tyranny or not.

yes. and if it is, the rule of the tyrannical state is legitimized through this idea of an invisible "social contract".

There's a difference between not approving of a government and being able to mount a revolution..

of course. how does this make the statement you are responding to false?

Because the people don't launch a revolution every week doesn't mean they've signed an "invisible contract".

very true.

how do we know who has signed the contract and who hasn't?

I presume you've heard of elections?

yes, but my statement is still true. you must either obey or leave. if you're allowed to vote, great. doesn't change what i said.

i'll try to outline the central flaw in the "social contract" as clearly as i can for you:

1. any contract must be mutually binding. if only one party is legally bound to abide by a contract, it is not a contract at all.

2. the state, as the enforcer of all contracts in the land, cannot be legally bound to any contract.

3. the state therefore cannot enter into any such "contract" with the people.

any "contract" between the state and the people is no contract at all. it is an arbitrary (and unsigned) "agreement" that citizens (ahem... subjects) are required to obey, and the government is not.

Edited by mushmaster (07/11/04 07:00 PM)

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Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Anonymous]
    #16788333 -

At this point libertarian is any system which advocates less or no government at all. Libertarian Socialists reject government by all means and in every way possible. They seek to end authority and bring about socialism in a more libertarian manner, no hierarchy, no centralization, no government, but also by bringing about socialism by putting workers in control of the factories, setting up councils and other things. Than again, classical anarchists are only a part of the libertarian socialist spectrum, you still have individual anarchists and mutualists who advocate socialism. If you want to get technical libertarian means anarcho-communist as that is the reason the word exists in the first place, the represent anarchist communists in france after the word anarchist was banned. Please do your research before you criticize ideologies.


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If I can't drop acid than I don't want to be in your revolution.

puffpuff23's trading list.

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