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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24353635 - 05/27/17 09:19 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
FDR forced businesses to share more, which restored people's faith in capitalism, but that's reversed again since the 80s.



Communism is forceful stealing.
it's throw you in a gulag or a cage for not declaring the 10 grains of rice you harvested and needed to live on.



Source?  Where did that happen?  If you say under Stalin, I'll tell you for the bazillionth time, communism was bad under Stalin.



1. communism sucked after stalin.



So you admit your statement about being thrown in a gulag for not declaring grain was absolute nonsense (it is), but you can't provide a real reason why communism sucked?  You'll have to better than making up facts if you want to convince people here.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Business employees are voluntary.



How is it voluntary?  How would people survive if they don't work?



2. welfare, duh.



So you support welfare because it makes employment voluntary?  I don't even believe we should pay able bodied people who choose not to work.

Welfare was an FDR initiative, by the way.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Disturbing you use communism to justify everything, considering how poorly their economy performed through its entirety.



What have I used communism to justify?  I've said many times I believe in capitalism, with a healthy dose of Government involvement to ensure a strong middle class, like we had under the New Deal.



3. the country was fine before the new deal.



Define 'fine'.  America before the New Deal was worse off than post Stalin Soviet communism.

After the New Deal we finally got a strong middle class in America.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24353673 - 05/27/17 09:35 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
stealing from people is pretty weak.



It is. 






yet you don't consider people being forced off their land stealing/theft?  whether or not one is given compensation, they still were not given a choice, which = theft.  that's like saying i'm going to stick in your ass against your will (rape), bu it's okay cause i'ma give you a dollar and kiss you on the cheek afterward.  in relation to my TVA comment yesterday.  so the ends justify the means, in your world, even if the means involve theft, which you agree is "pretty weak"



okay


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5] * 1
    #24353724 - 05/27/17 09:53 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
stealing from people is pretty weak.



It is.  Which is why communism was created in the first place.  People were sick of business owners keeping all the profits of their labor.

FDR forced businesses to share more, which restored people's faith in capitalism, but that's reversed again since the 80s.



yet you don't consider people being forced off their land stealing/theft?  whether or not one is given compensation, they still were not given a choice, which = theft.  that's like saying i'm going to stick in your ass against your will (rape), but it's okay cause i'ma give you a dollar and kiss you on the cheek afterward.  in relation to my TVA comment yesterday.  so the ends justify the means, in your world, even if the means involve theft, which you agree is "pretty weak"



The big difference between the TVA and your ass rape example is huge numbers of people aren't benefiting from an ass rape.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24353739 - 05/27/17 09:57 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

that's why i included '"the ends justify the means" in your world' modifier.  besides the ass-rape scenario, do you disagree with anything in my post?



theft is theft, which you call weak.  but you're willing to make exceptions when they meet your arbitrary acceptable level of "greater good" benefit


having one's cake and eating it too, aka hypocrisy


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5] * 1
    #24353875 - 05/27/17 11:02 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

You concede to the greater good when youre born into a society.

Its in our dna.


--------------------


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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24353925 - 05/27/17 11:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
You concede to the greater good when youre born into a society.

Its in our dna.





so then what is the point of debating over sovereignty?  what is the point of thinking/feeling one has "inalienable rights?"  what is the point in worrying about what Muslims or pedophiles do?  after all, we conceded to "the greater good" which is an arbitrary, loaded/opinionated concept



by your statement, would it be accurate to presume you feel "society" is "in our dna?"


if so, i simply don't agree with that.  society/culture is not inherent, but are an accumulation of things taught/learned/retained/accepted





edit:  who decides this "greater good?"  why is their "greater good" any more right/wrong over another's concept of the "greater good?"  what if my greater good means massacring people?


edit2:  what about the "greatest good?"


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Edited by demiu5 (05/27/17 11:39 AM)


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InvisibleCyrus19
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5]
    #24353926 - 05/27/17 11:37 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
You concede to the greater good when youre born into a society.

Its in our dna.



Yea the whole
Quote:

demiu5 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
You concede to the greater good when youre born into a society.

Its in our dna.





so then what is the point of debating over sovereignty?  what is the point of thinking/feeling one has "inalienable rights?"  what is the point in worrying about what Muslims or pedophiles do?  after all, we conceded to "the greater good" which is an arbitrary, loaded/opinionated concept


by your statement, would it be accurate to presume you feel "society" is "in our dna?"


if so, i simply don't agree with that.  society/culture is not inherent, but are an accumulation of things taught/learned/retained/accepted



Are you a radical individualist?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19] * 1
    #24353934 - 05/27/17 11:40 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

The greater good is what a majority of us decide it is.

I dont think its impossible to do that while maintaining a vast majority, if not all of, our treasured civil liberties.


--------------------


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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #24353941 - 05/27/17 11:45 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The greater good is what a majority of us decide it is.

I dont think its impossible to do that while maintaining a vast majority, if not all of, our treasured civil liberties.






and you're willing to go along with that, even if it is in complete contradiction to your own ideas of "greater good" or your own personal health/well-being/property/life?


i pose that there is no such tangible or logical "thing" as "greater good"



cyrus:  if that's what you want to call me, sure.  that's a new phrase to me.  my thoughts/feelings are mine, and mine only.  i don't force or impose them on anyone, unless in the arena of debate/conversation.  i recognize my own "right" as a free animal to do what i want, when i want.  that isn't to say there may or may not be consequences for those actions, but that doesn't negate my statement.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24353951 - 05/27/17 11:54 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Business employees are voluntary.



How is it voluntary?  How would people survive if they don't work?





Sounds like you're going into this with a collective mindset...that people are inherently owed material wealth unconditionally regardless of what they provide to society.


--------------------


Edited by schwarg (05/27/17 11:55 AM)


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InvisibleCyrus19
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: schwarg]
    #24353959 - 05/27/17 11:57 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Business employees are voluntary.



How is it voluntary?  How would people survive if they don't work?





Sounds like you're going into this with a collective mindset...that people are inherently owed material wealth unconditionally regardless of what they provide to society.



I think people are owed a basic standard of living regardless of there contributions to society.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5] * 1
    #24353968 - 05/27/17 12:02 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
that's why i included '"the ends justify the means" in your world' modifier.  besides the ass-rape scenario, do you disagree with anything in my post?



I disagree that the "the ends justify the means".  If we're going to embark on a huge project that benefits hundreds of thousands of people, the means are absolutely critical to getting there.  You can't just flood people's homes while they're still living, nor should you tear down homes without adequate compensation, nor should you leave an environmental disaster.  The means to getting to the ends are extremely important and shouldn't be ignored.

Quote:

demiu5 said:
theft is theft, which you call weak.  but you're willing to make exceptions when they meet your arbitrary acceptable level of "greater good" benefit


having one's cake and eating it too, aka hypocrisy



It's not 'theft' when there is adequate reimbursement.  Do thieves take your tv and leave enough cash to buy a new one?

Taxes aren't theft either as Cyrus already noted.  "...in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes" even if we don't care for them.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24353978 - 05/27/17 12:07 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fal said:
Quote:

demiu5 said:
theft is theft, which you call weak.  but you're willing to make exceptions when they meet your arbitrary acceptable level of "greater good" benefit


having one's cake and eating it too, aka hypocrisy



It's not 'theft' when there is adequate reimbursement.  Do thieves take your tv and leave enough cash to buy a new one?








okay, let's make this simple:


let's say i have an iphone


you walk up to me and take it, but you toss $400 on the ground in front of me as "compensation."

i say, "no sir, i don't want your compensation, give me my phone back"

you refuse and say, "but i gave you $400 in compensation, what's the problem?"


i say, "i didn't give you the phone or agree to the terms you presented."


you say, "it doesn't matter, i represent authority and this is what we've deemed appropriate"



so, if i'm not a willing participant, and you are going to do what you want, regardless, how can you justify that as "not theft"




is this any clearer?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5]
    #24353985 - 05/27/17 12:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

They'll never see it that way because to them "Property is theft."


--------------------


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: schwarg]
    #24353986 - 05/27/17 12:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Business employees are voluntary.



How is it voluntary?  How would people survive if they don't work?





Sounds like you're going into this with a collective mindset...that people are inherently owed material wealth unconditionally regardless of what they provide to society.



I don't follow your logic at all.  I asked how people would survive if they don't work.  Cinnamon said people would get welfare if they choose not to work.  It sounds to me like he's the one with the collective mindset.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24353994 - 05/27/17 12:14 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Apologies, read into that a bit off kilter. Hungover as fuck.


--------------------


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5] * 1
    #24354001 - 05/27/17 12:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
okay, let's make this simple:


let's say i have an iphone


you walk up to me and take it, but you toss $400 on the ground in front of me as "compensation."

i say, "no sir, i don't want your compensation, give me my phone back"

you refuse and say, "but i gave you $400 in compensation, what's the problem?"



The problem is that there is no greater good being served; tens of thousands of people aren't going to benef from this exchange.

Quote:

demiu5 said:
so, if i'm not a willing participant, and you are going to do what you want, regardless, how can you justify that as "not theft"



No, I believe there has to be some greater benefit to an awful lot of people before such action is justified.  If you insist on calling it theft, I'll disagree but it just semantics at that point and how each of us defines theft.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24354007 - 05/27/17 12:21 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

demiu5 said:
okay, let's make this simple:


let's say i have an iphone


you walk up to me and take it, but you toss $400 on the ground in front of me as "compensation."

i say, "no sir, i don't want your compensation, give me my phone back"

you refuse and say, "but i gave you $400 in compensation, what's the problem?"



The problem is that there is no greater good being served; tens of thousands of people aren't going to benef from this exchange.

Quote:

demiu5 said:
so, if i'm not a willing participant, and you are going to do what you want, regardless, how can you justify that as "not theft"



No, I believe there has to be some greater benefit to an awful lot of people before such action is justified.  If you insist on calling it theft, I'll disagree but it just semantics at that point and how each of us defines theft.






this specifically wasn't about the concept of "greater good"

this was purely trying to determine what you do and don't consider theft, on an individual level


so do you think the scenario i presented is theft?  yes or no?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5]
    #24354016 - 05/27/17 12:26 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
this was purely trying to determine what you do and don't consider theft, on an individual level


so do you think the scenario i presented is theft?  yes or no?



Yes, the scenario you presented is theft according to the legal definition.  The TVA is not theft, according to the fifth amendment.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24354043 - 05/27/17 12:41 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

demiu5 said:
this was purely trying to determine what you do and don't consider theft, on an individual level


so do you think the scenario i presented is theft?  yes or no?



Yes, the scenario you presented is theft according to the legal definition.  The TVA is not theft, according to the fifth amendment.






okay.  so then, you recognize the authority's right to theft, which is based upon their own self-granted permission, and not an agreement between the authority and the citizens governed by that authority. 

so who, then, is in charge of determining what counts as fair or equitable in cases of eminent domain?  is it the people?  or is it the authority/a body established by the authority?

obviously, the "market" [helps to] determines the value of the compensation, but that is not what i'm asking.  what entity gives the final nod that an authority may or may not enact eminent domain?



now let's go back to another hypothetical.  let's say the government wants to take YOUR home/land.  they intend to build Guantanamo V 2.0.  They say it's in the greater good of the nation's safety that we take your land/house to continue our mission of illegally detaining people and depriving them of due-process.

are you going to go along with this?

what if they are going to take your home/land to build a park for children?  what if it's to build a McDonald's?  what if it's to build a strip mall, which will inevitably put local business owners downtown out of business?


where do you draw the line, personally, and say fuck you to the thieves that are the US government?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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