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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5]
    #24354098 - 05/27/17 01:07 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Everyone is always in a rush to form Governments and they all always have cheap methods of controlling everything.

It's amazing how none of the Governments work for everyone.  It's a shitty planet with a billion enemies all fornicating with each other.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5]
    #24354122 - 05/27/17 01:19 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
okay.  so then, you recognize the authority's right to theft



No, I recognize their right to eminent domain, which is only theft by your definition (again, a semantics debate).

Quote:

demiu5 said:
...which is based upon their own self-granted permission, and not an agreement between the authority and the citizens governed by that authority.



Most people agree with the US Constitution.

Quote:

demiu5 said:
so who, then, is in charge of determining what counts as fair or equitable in cases of eminent domain?  is it the people?  or is it the authority/a body established by the authority?

obviously, the "market" [helps to] determines the value of the compensation, but that is not what i'm asking.  what entity gives the final nod that an authority may or may not enact eminent domain?



I believe it's the courts that decide.

Quote:

demiu5 said:
now let's go back to another hypothetical.  let's say the government wants to take YOUR home/land.  they intend to build Guantanamo V 2.0.  They say it's in the greater good of the nation's safety that we take your land/house to continue our mission of illegally detaining people and depriving them of due-process.

are you going to go along with this?

what if they are going to take your home/land to build a park for children?  what if it's to build a McDonald's?  what if it's to build a strip mall, which will inevitably put local business owners downtown out of business?


where do you draw the line, personally, and say fuck you to the thieves that are the US government?



That's a good question, but since the subject was FDR, I believe the TVA was a good thing.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24354136 - 05/27/17 01:26 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

You never really own anything.

People own you


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24355104 - 05/27/17 09:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:


Taxation isn't theft this study is juvenile taunting at it it's core.




It's theft.
Income tax is unethical.
Tax can't fix the worlds problems.



No it isn't do you honestly believe that? Without taxation you wouldn't have a safe environment to conduct business. You want police and infrastructure right? Well pay up!




Mm no.
What even was the Boston Teaparty?
what even was April 19th 1775?

Taxes are inherently un-American

Police?
I thought libs hated cops, besides, there's more private security than police in the U.S anyway.

Yes, I want police, military, EMS, Fire.

but I DON'T want, socialist redistributing.
Bailing out banks.
the fed.
10 mile tax rolls.
income tax.
high corporate tax.
business sponsored healthcare.
etc.. etc..

Limited government then smaller government.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24355120 - 05/27/17 09:17 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


So you admit your statement about being thrown in a gulag for not declaring grain was absolute nonsense (it is), but you can't provide a real reason why communism sucked?  You'll have to better than making up facts if you want to convince people here.



it's not nonsense, it was under stalin, which was under communism.
Communism sucked without Stalin but it sucked harder with him.

Quote:


So you support welfare because it makes employment voluntary?  I don't even believe we should pay able bodied people who choose not to work.



No it was sarcasm.

No one is owed anything, you earn everything.
The only people who legitimately deserve and need welfare are the disabled, most rises in welfare are caused by the governments meddling, no private company has any where enough influence to ruin the countries economy, except the Fed.
so burn the Fed.




Quote:


After the New Deal we finally got a strong middle class in America.




After the serfs were permitted to own land and keep profits Britain gained a middle class.


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OnlineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24355918 - 05/28/17 07:55 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

So progress is a good thing.


Thats why we need to remain shackled to an economic theory thats 400 years old.


--------------------


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24355950 - 05/28/17 08:18 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
:lol:

this thread has been dead for 15 years.
is this your new hobby?




15 years?

:whattefuck2:


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24356187 - 05/28/17 10:43 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
"it's throw you in a gulag or a cage for not declaring the 10 grains of rice you harvested and needed to live on."

Where did that happen?  If you say under Stalin, I'll tell you for the bazillionth time, communism was bad under Stalin.



1. communism sucked after stalin.



So you admit your statement about being thrown in a gulag for not declaring grain was absolute nonsense (it is), but you can't provide a real reason why communism sucked?  You'll have to better than making up facts if you want to convince people here.



it's not nonsense, it was under stalin, which was under communism.
Communism sucked without Stalin but it sucked harder with him.



So again, the question is how did communism suck?  Please don't give any more examples of communism under Stalin, because we already know that Stalin sucked.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
"Business employees are voluntary."

How is it voluntary?  How would people survive if they don't work?



2. welfare, duh.



So you support welfare because it makes employment voluntary?  I don't even believe we should pay able bodied people who choose not to work.

Welfare was an FDR initiative, by the way.



No it was sarcasm.



So work is NOT voluntary as you claimed.  Since people are forced to work under capitalism, shouldn't Government set rules around employment, like minimum wage, overtime pay, safety, etc.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I believe in capitalism, with a healthy dose of Government involvement to ensure a strong middle class, like we had under the New Deal.



3. the country was fine before the new deal.



Define 'fine'.  America before the New Deal was worse off than post Stalin Soviet communism.



After the serfs were permitted to own land and keep profits Britain gained a middle class.



Serfs became peasants, who were worse off than people in post Stalin Soviet communism.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
...most rises in welfare are caused by the governments meddling, no private company has any where enough influence to ruin the countries economy, except the Fed.
so burn the Fed.



That's a serious deviation from known facts.  The recession was primarily caused by real estate lenders, and too big to fail companies were (and still are) a very serious problem which the Fed had to bail out to prevent a much more serious economic crisis from occurring that would have led to a great depression.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24356250 - 05/28/17 11:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fal said:
That's a serious deviation from known facts.  The recession was primarily caused by real estate lenders, and too big to fail companies were (and still are) a very serious problem which the Fed had to bail out to prevent a much more serious economic crisis from occurring that would have led to a great depression.






totally legitimate question:  we know the deep ties/interconnectedness of these "too-big-to-fail" entities could lead us into a serious set-back/collapse if they were to fail.  now that we know of this issue, are any steps being taken [slowly] to untie these "knots?"  this could be politically, economically, socially, etc....

cause i don't see much actually having changed or anything stopping the inevitable breakdown of the path we are [still] on


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5]
    #24356268 - 05/28/17 11:44 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not aware of anything being done.  The big banks seem to have too much power over Congress to allow themselves to be broken up.

Interestingly, the Fed itself has been one of the more vocal proponents of ending too big to fail.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24356280 - 05/28/17 11:49 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not aware of anything being done.  The big banks seem to have too much power over Congress to allow themselves to be broken up.

Interestingly, the Fed itself has been one of the more vocal proponents of ending too big to fail.






bookmarked.  thanks.




also, go Amurrica!!!111


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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InvisibleballsalsaM
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5] * 1
    #24356333 - 05/28/17 12:11 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
Quote:

fal said:
That's a serious deviation from known facts.  The recession was primarily caused by real estate lenders, and too big to fail companies were (and still are) a very serious problem which the Fed had to bail out to prevent a much more serious economic crisis from occurring that would have led to a great depression.






totally legitimate question:  we know the deep ties/interconnectedness of these "too-big-to-fail" entities could lead us into a serious set-back/collapse if they were to fail.  now that we know of this issue, are any steps being taken [slowly] to untie these "knots?"  this could be politically, economically, socially, etc....

cause i don't see much actually having changed or anything stopping the inevitable breakdown of the path we are [still] on




here is an interesting recent exchange between Elizabeth Warren and Steve Mnuchin



--------------------
Don't click this link                                         



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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: demiu5]
    #24356441 - 05/28/17 01:03 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not aware of anything being done.  The big banks seem to have too much power over Congress to allow themselves to be broken up.

Interestingly, the Fed itself has been one of the more vocal proponents of ending too big to fail.



Quote:

demiu5 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not aware of anything being done.  The big banks seem to have too much power over Congress to allow themselves to be broken up.

Interestingly, the Fed itself has been one of the more vocal proponents of ending too big to fail.






bookmarked.  thanks.




also, go Amurrica!!!111





Actions speak louder than words. I hope the Fed does what it says about to big to fail; the reality is the opposite as can be evident by merely looking at the current consolidation of banks (ie big banks)....which prompts\promotes To Big to Fail.

https://politicsofpoverty.oxfamamerica.org/2016/01/too-big-to-fail-and-only-getting-bigger/

Which leads to something worse than socailism....to statism


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (05/28/17 01:13 PM)


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24356491 - 05/28/17 01:29 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Actions speak louder than words. I hope the Fed does what it says about to big to fail; the reality is the opposite as can be evident by merely looking at the current consolidation of banks (ie big banks)....which prompts\promotes To Big to Fail.

https://politicsofpoverty.oxfamamerica.org/2016/01/too-big-to-fail-and-only-getting-bigger/

Which leads to something worse than socailism....to statism



The Fed doesn't have the power to break up the big banks.  Congress would have to do that, and that's what's ball's last video is all about.

The Fed was simply recommending Congress do that so they don't have to do another bailout.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24356493 - 05/28/17 01:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
here is an interesting recent exchange between Elizabeth Warren and Steve Mnuchin





Warren is great.  Mnuchin is a big bank shill.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24356510 - 05/28/17 01:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Its smokescreen.
I will admit the Fed cant break up; they do prop up, however
Ever hear of the Supplementary Finance Program?

http://econbrowser.com/archives/2010/02/treasury_supple


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (05/28/17 01:44 PM)


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24356606 - 05/28/17 02:42 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


So again, the question is how did communism suck?  Please don't give any more examples of communism under Stalin, because we already know that Stalin sucked.



You know full well the economy sucked.
when the economy sucks it sucks for everyone.

You entire basis for approving the Soviet Union rests on "it's not that bad after Stalin!"
durrr, of course it's not ***THAT*** bad.

Quote:


So work is NOT voluntary as you claimed.  Since people are forced to work under capitalism, shouldn't Government set rules around employment, like minimum wage, overtime pay, safety, etc.




it's entirely voluntary, there just happens to be consequences for choosing not to.



Quote:

Cinnamon said:
...most rises in welfare are caused by the governments meddling, no private company has any where enough influence to ruin the countries economy, except the Fed.
so burn the Fed.



That's a serious deviation from known facts.  The recession was primarily caused by real estate lenders, and too big to fail companies were (and still are) a very serious problem which the Fed had to bail out to prevent a much more serious economic crisis from occurring that would have led to a great depression.




A great depression lol, if they were permitted to fail the vacuum created in their wake would be filled so fast your head would spin.
Trading in subprime debt is moronic, quick-cash scheme that should have killed any business that touched it.
This is one place the government could've stepped in and said subprime trading is illegal, (not because of the dopes who wonder how they got such a big house so easy and then turned into human question marks when the bank wanted you to pay up), rather make it illegal because of the damage it can cause.


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24356617 - 05/28/17 02:45 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Its smokescreen.



What's a smokescreen for what?  I'm unclear what you're referring to.

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I will admit the Fed cant break up



Nor should they.  Too big to fail applies to private companies.

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Ever hear of the Supplementary Finance Program?

http://econbrowser.com/archives/2010/02/treasury_supple



Yes, that's just a way to help manage the economy, particularly during the recession.  What about it?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24356661 - 05/28/17 03:08 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So again, the question is how did communism suck?  Please don't give any more examples of communism under Stalin, because we already know that Stalin sucked.



You know full well the economy sucked.
when the economy sucks it sucks for everyone.



No, I don't know "full well the economy sucked".  I know a lot of people who lived in the Soviet Union until it finally broke up, and none of them support what you are saying.  That's why I'm asking how you 'know' this and if you can back your statement up.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
You entire basis for approving the Soviet Union rests on "it's not that bad after Stalin!"
durrr, of course it's not ***THAT*** bad.



Then tell me how bad it was.  I keep asking, and your only response is a variation of "it sucked under Stalin"

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So work is NOT voluntary as you claimed.  Since people are forced to work under capitalism, shouldn't Government set rules around employment, like minimum wage, overtime pay, safety, etc.



it's entirely voluntary, there just happens to be consequences for choosing not to.



The same was true under Soviet communism, if you chose not to work you didn't get paid.  Work is voluntary in both places.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
A great depression lol, if they were permitted to fail the vacuum created in their wake would be filled so fast your head would spin.



Henry Paulson, a free market champion who hated Government intervention and who allowed Lehman Brothers to fail, realized that Lehman's failure had greatly sped up the recession as Lehman started taking down other companies with it.  He then realized the bailouts had become necessary to save the economy because we were heading towards a Great Depression so fast it was making his head spin.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Trading in subprime debt is moronic, quick-cash scheme that should have killed any business that touched it.
This is one place the government could've stepped in and said subprime trading is illegal, (not because of the dopes who wonder how they got such a big house so easy and then turned into human question marks when the bank wanted you to pay up), rather make it illegal because of the damage it can cause.



I agree except most people who traded in those securities didn't realize they were subprime because the ratings agencies rated them safer than they actually were.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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InvisibleballsalsaM
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24356726 - 05/28/17 03:44 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:

Quote:


So work is NOT voluntary as you claimed.  Since people are forced to work under capitalism, shouldn't Government set rules around employment, like minimum wage, overtime pay, safety, etc.




it's entirely voluntary, there just happens to be consequences for choosing not to.






By that reasoning, slavery was voluntary...

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/voluntary
Quote:


voluntary
/ˈvɒləntərɪ; -trɪ/
adjective
1.
performed, undertaken, or brought about by free choice, willingly, or without being asked: a voluntary donation
2.
(of persons) serving or acting in a specified function of one's own accord and without compulsion or promise of remuneration: a voluntary social worker





--------------------
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Alex213 1,907 23 12/08/06 07:12 AM
by Arp

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