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Offlinedomite
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libertarianism
    #1902867 - 09/10/03 06:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I just started reading a bunch of thier propaganda, and, I have to admit, i am quite intriuged. There are still some things I disagree with, but mostly they seemed right on the money, but for one thing, really seemed rediculous... no minimum wage.

are there any liberataians who want to defen this position? (without the trickle down theory plese)


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism [Re: domite]
    #1902894 - 09/10/03 03:07 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

the idea is rather simple.

as long as your actions do not, by way of force, impede on the actions of another person, you are to be free to act as you wish, without interference by force.

the only role of government (legally recognized force) is to enforce this principle.


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Offlinedomite
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Re: libertarianism [Re: ]
    #1923680 - 09/17/03 01:10 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I understand the main principal, but wont having no minimum wage lead to a situation like cities in the industrial revolution? Or are there SOME labor laws?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: libertarianism [Re: domite]
    #1923798 - 09/17/03 01:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It will lead to the situation that already exists throughout south america, mexico, africa and south east asia. Corporations devastating the environment with impunity, treating child workers no better than brutalised slaves, paying 10 cents an hour and slaughtering anyone who tries to form a union.

Sound like fun?

With no minimum wage or welfare in the US wages are going to plummet through the floor.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: libertarianism [Re: domite]
    #1924128 - 09/17/03 03:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Instead of prohibiting all work that is worth less than the minimum wage, some libertarians propose a minimum work-free income, called citizen's dividend or negative income tax. This idea is much healthier economically than welfare programs, charity, or socialist rigging of wages.


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1924445 - 09/17/03 08:19 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It will lead to the situation that already exists throughout south america, mexico, africa and south east asia. Corporations devastating the environment with impunity, treating child workers no better than brutalised slaves, paying 10 cents an hour and slaughtering anyone who tries to form a union.

we are talking about libertarianism here, not anarchy. 3 out of the 4 "offences" you cite are deviations from libertarian principles.

1. Corporations devastating the environment with impunity

if someone poisons the air you breathe, the water you drink, or dumps waste (or anything else) onto your property without your consent, they've initiated force against you.

2. treating child workers no better than brutalised slaves

even in a libertarian system, children cannot enter into legally binding contracts. there will be child labor laws. brutalized slaves? slaves are kept by way of force.

3. slaughtering anyone who tries to form a union.

again, an initiation of force. not permitted.

and for that other one...

4. 10 cents an hour

if they can find better work elsewhere, then they should get a new job if they want more money. no one is forcing them to work there. if no other work exists, how is giving them a job and paying them something when they would otherwise have nothing, hurting them?

With no minimum wage or welfare in the US wages are going to plummet through the floor.

as will prices for consumer goods and services.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: libertarianism [Re: ]
    #1924453 - 09/17/03 08:27 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

if they can find better work elsewhere, then they should get a new job if they want more money. no one is forcing them to work there. if no other work exists, how is giving them a job and paying them something when they would otherwise have nothing, hurting them?





Should they not be paid the fair rate for what they are doing? If we are trying to stop poverty and establish a truly fair global economy shouldnt we stop companies exploiting third world workers?


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1924458 - 09/17/03 08:32 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Should they not be paid the fair rate for what they are doing?

the only "fair rate" is the one that both the employer and the employee voluntarily agree on.

If we are trying to stop poverty and establish a truly fair global economy shouldnt we stop companies exploiting third world workers?

i don't recall anyone saying that the goal here was to stop poverty. i doubt anyone can ever end poverty. if it can be done, it's not going to be through enforcement.

shouldnt we stop companies exploiting third world workers

see my response to alex's "10 cents an hour" comment.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: libertarianism [Re: ]
    #1924664 - 09/17/03 11:37 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Voluntarily agreed upon! Thats a good one. What western companies are actually doing is exploiting the poverty stricken. The people they employ truly are wage slaves. Many of them are alot worse off than the slaves people kept in the past.
If instead the western companies balanced their need to maximise profits whatever the cost and passed on more of the profit to the workers in the form of higher wages then these people would actually have a chance of climbing out of poverty. It would obviously also give the whole economy a shot in the arm.
When you have a situation where a sweat shop worker can produce say 20 shirts in a week and is making in a week less than the price in the west of ONE of these shirts then somebody is being exploited. Thats not a matter for debate that is a fact.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: libertarianism [Re: ]
    #1924690 - 09/17/03 11:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

again, an initiation of force. not permitted.

Do corporations really care if it's permitted or not tho? Say you're a 12 year old kid getting 10 cents an hour and you call for the forming of a union. The day after you either get sacked or beaten to a pulp by "mysterious" attackers in the street. Is going to the police really going to help you? When the corporation says "We didn't do it" where do you go from there?

The only protection people have is strong unions or measure like the minimum wage.


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1924718 - 09/17/03 12:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Voluntarily agreed upon! Thats a good one.

please explain how the pay is not voluntarily agreed upon.

is there not an option to work elsewhere?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: libertarianism [Re: ]
    #1924722 - 09/17/03 12:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Trouble is with no minimum wage the corporations pretty soon realise they don't have to pay worth a damn. It's called "the race to the bottom". If one corporation gets away with paying 10 cents an hour, all the others do too.


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1924729 - 09/17/03 12:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

and they are then able to offer goods and services for much less money.

money is not the same as wealth. money is merely a means of exchange. forcing people to pay more money doesn't increase the amount of actual goods and services available.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: libertarianism [Re: ]
    #1924732 - 09/17/03 12:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Not to the workers tho. I can't see many workers in Nike factories wearing top of the line Nike trainers.


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1924740 - 09/17/03 12:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

what's your point? why sell nike shoes to indonesian laborers when you can sell them to wealthy americans?

it doesn't make economic sense. if you're a factory worker, you're not going to be able to afford the same pair of shoes as upper-middle class white collar suburbia... of course.

i contend that if there was no price support on labor, wages would indeed go down. i also think that prices on every single product and service would decrease as well.

because of increased efficiency, there would be a net increase in goods and services available to consumers.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: libertarianism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1924772 - 09/17/03 12:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Thats not a matter for debate that is a fact.



Sounds more like an opinion than a fact.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineshakta
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Re: libertarianism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1924927 - 09/17/03 01:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Hey lds, you are a libertarian, explain this no minimum wage thing to us. I don't get it either.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: libertarianism [Re: ]
    #1924960 - 09/17/03 01:59 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

because of increased efficiency, there would be a net increase in goods and services available to consumers.

Are you saying the best thing to do is pay workers as little as possible?


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1925038 - 09/17/03 02:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Are you saying the best thing to do is pay workers as little as possible?

i never said anything like that... but it's something i'd agree with.

when you buy something, don't you usually try to buy it for as little money as you can?

if there were two carwashes in town and they both did just as good a job, i sure as hell wouldn't go to the one that was charging more for it. would you?


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Anonymous

Re: libertarianism [Re: shakta]
    #1925066 - 09/17/03 02:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

if labor costs more, everything produced by labor will cost more.

a minimum wage is a price support on labor. the only thing it ends up doing is jacking up the price of everything, along with pay, which doesn't make anyone wealthier. it also creates unemployment.

this is the practical reality of it.

the larger issue is that it's interference in a voluntary transaction.

if mr. smith is willing to mow my lawn for $4.00 an hour, and i'm willing to pay him that much, why the hell should anyone step in and tell us we're not allowed to do it? who is the victim in this criminal act we are commiting?


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