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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3150570 - 09/18/04 12:23 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
You're right. I meant that for establishing the fundamentals of the debate ignore specific examples. Of course examples were going to be neccesary for furthering the discussion. My bad.




No problem, excellent debate so far :smile:
Quote:


No one is forcing Toyota to export cars here.




No one is forcing you to live here.
Quote:


If they desire to they will have to pay a small tax.




If you desire to, you will have to pay a small tax.
Quote:


To clarify what you may or may not be thinking: there is indeed an ENORMOUS difference between a foreign exporter acquiescing to US tariff rules in order to get its products here and a denizen of a land area considered part of the United States being stolen from at gunpoint. Personally, I would prefer neither robbery nor excise taxes/tariffs, but given the choice I'll take the latter every time.




If the government makes no money from taxation OR tarriffs, how would it function?
Quote:


I realize that is the common mode of thinking. I can't blame you for that -- there are no modern examples(to my knowledge) of anything different working. Regardless, the fact that the average person can conceive of no means of government revenue collection absent the initiation of force does not mean no such method exists.




So we will have the volunteer army fortified with donated weapons until then?
Quote:


You are wrong. They pay their taxes because there are enormous violent consequences to not paying their taxes.




Ok, lets say that the choices were to pay your taxes, or to stay ONLY on your land or other private property. Noone is "forcing" you do to anything other than not impede upon their rights, right? No car driving on public roads, because you are, in effect, stealing a service.
Quote:


I agree 100% with that statement.




then why does it bother you to pay taxes?
Quote:


Bzzt, wrong.




If the taxation of goods isn't force, then neither is the taxation of living in this "society". Analysis;

If you are purchasing goods voluntarily and the government charges you a percentage of that as a tax, you are voluntarily paying that when you recieve your goods.

If you are "purchasing" the protection of the Constitution and the government charges you a part of your income as a "tax", you are voluntarily paying that when you recieve the service you paid for.

You aren't being FORCED to live in America, many other options exist.
You aren't being FORCED to buy food or clothes in stores, many other options exist.

If you go into a store and refuse to pay the sales tax, you will have the sale denied. As you demanded the merchandise and they demanded payment, it would escalate to the initiation of force.  If you refused to leave the store without the merchandise and you refused to pay for it, they would use force against you. Of course, you could either pay the tax and recieve your merchandise/service, or you could refuse and leave the store.

If you were using public roads and refusing to pay the taxes that were used to support building and upkeep of public roads, you should have your service refused. If you kept insisting on driving on roads that you weren't paying for, you would be initating force upon the populace by stealing from them, in the same way that pirating music is stealing.  If you kept using our roads without paying a tax (which couldn't really happen, but the example is to show a point), the people that were paying for the roads would eventually iniate force against you to keep you off of "their" property. Of course you could pay the tax and recieve the service. Or you could say that you didn't want to pay the tax and go to another country. If you kept refusing to play in accordance with the rules, they'd use force against you.

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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4139565 - 05/05/05 08:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Taxes are simply theft that the ignorant majority supports. They would crucify those who commit petty theft, those who break and enter, those who steal the property of others, but if you pull a crime so massive that you take half the money from everybody, willing or not willing, it's simply too big and incomprehensible for the average citizen to wonder about.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Ravus]
    #4139880 - 05/05/05 09:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

bump


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 16 years, 24 days
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Phred]
    #4140449 - 05/06/05 12:33 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Taxation is tribute. Extortion, not robbery.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4142531 - 05/06/05 01:44 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

A rose by any other name...


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OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4145032 - 05/07/05 02:55 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I haven't the time to read the whole post, but I'll say this.

First of all, when your country was founded, European countries were mostly ruled by kings. They owned the land, so the founders of your state decided the government should own the land, too.

Skipping about two hundred years to now. What your government does for you before you can ever earn your first dollar: pay for the enforcement of your rights (police), pay for your education (in the form of funding) and your basic social and health coverage. Would you not be stealing if you didn't pay it back?

I consede my definition, scenario rather, in which taxation is not theft. Note that it is impossible to realize if there isn't a global government which has quenched its thirst for power.

Consider a government that doesn't own the land (forever by default), allowing you to effectively buy land from them and keep it. No succession rights paid, nothing.
This government pays for your baisc rights (health, education, shelter) until you reach the working age. From then on, you pay them back (with interest, of course) what they paid for you. That is effectively the only form of taxation, together with maintenance of roads and railroads (you need your local supermarket and appliance stores supplied, don't you?).
Everything else, from security services to hospitals, is paid for by the individual. It will cost more, but hey, you don't pay taxes.
In this case, the government is reduced to a bank type enterprise, which can also be privatised. However, the rates of interest need to match inflation to ensure everyone the same basic rights until they become legal.

Note that this is libertarian, but not leftist (not oriented around the community's goals, only the individual's). Where I'm from, this would be considered rightish thinking.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: A Libertarian Challenge [Re: Alan Stone]
    #4153239 - 05/09/05 12:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
Skipping about two hundred years to now. What your government does for you before you can ever earn your first dollar: pay for the enforcement of your rights (police), pay for your education (in the form of funding) and your basic social and health coverage. Would you not be stealing if you didn't pay it back?




Quote:

House Nigger said:
Why are you niggers getting uppity about your master... don't you realize, that he pays for your food, shelter and medical care? Why, if your master didn't have you work this land, there'd be no home for you, no food. Count your blessings and be happy that your master is so generous. Everything you have, you have because your master has given it to you first. Why, he has invested in you, your food, shelter and medical care, it is only right that you work to pay him back for all his troubles. You're just a bunch of ungrateful and ignorant malcontents.




--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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