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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4142527 - 05/06/05 01:43 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

The amount of income you make changes the income tax you pay, doesn't it? I fail to see what the problem here is.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4142900 - 05/06/05 03:15 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

As far as a tax goes that is representative of proportionality it would need to change very fast to be representative of the cost of said service. It differs from income tax as that is static, and obviously isn't proportional by any means. Especially in respects to some SS systems, as well as to higher income brackets.

That system is hardly proportional and works on a relatively static basis per income margin, if you want true proportionality, that system would have to be revamped and would have to be based on a percentile rather then an income bracket.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (05/06/05 03:36 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4143014 - 05/06/05 03:37 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Look, there's certain things that can be taxed which directly involve benefitting from government services. If you tax those things, I don't see how proportionality would be an issue.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4143175 - 05/06/05 04:17 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

The taxation system would need to be flexible as to its tax on individual income levels for true proportionality.

Higher income = higher taxes... those of higher incomes benefit more from all the services, where those that are in lower brackets have a greater burden and gain less as a result from them paying in.

Even if their was a static tax on most products/services it wouldn't be representative of proportionality, unless individual income was accounted for and deductions granted monthly/annually as a result of their income being utilized as a function to determine true proportionality. It'd be a huge bureaucratic overture, and much would need to be restructured including a credit/electronic based system of payment to account for taxes paid; which would further be held up against income levels and deductions accounted for at some set time period, based on previous economic conditions.

That would further require a large degree of flexibility, and would need a full team of number crunchers to create such.

I'm thinking in full proportionality of ends and means, perhaps you should specify what you're suggesting in terms of proportionality and the limitations you wish to impose on this thought experiment.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (05/06/05 04:54 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4143421 - 05/06/05 05:21 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Income tax is too arbitrary. We need to differentiate between different kinds of income. Take, for example, land rent, which comes from the availability of services and opportunities. I've covered this and the Land Value Tax many times, so in order to save everyone the repetition, check out this thread which I made a while back.

Then we can look at things like gas taxes, where consumption of a resource has a societal cost. I personally think that there's no need to wait until it's at the pump to charge gas taxes. Simply charge extraction taxes when it's taken out of the ground. Obviously, this only applies to domestically drilled oil, but we could also have a tariff for a similar amount.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4143465 - 05/06/05 05:38 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

One can simply override that tax by way of minimizing property ownership. Too many loopholes in the form of assets can be overridden through that system.

It's only proportional to the degree of investments. However it can be negated through moving assets, and liquidating land, then overall assets slip through taxation.

It's a good start, but needs to be further restricted, and joined with overall assets to be representative of proportionality of taxes and wealth.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (05/06/05 05:48 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4143537 - 05/06/05 06:02 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
One can simply override that tax by way of minimizing property ownership.



So what? It's a tax on the privilege of having close access to those services.

Quote:

Too many loopholes in the form of assets can be overridden through that system.



Actually, the LVT has the fewest loopholes of any tax ever invented. As far as I can determine, it has none whatsoever.

Quote:

It's only proportional to the degree of investments. However it can be negated through moving assets, and liquidating land, then overall assets slip through taxation.



You can't move land, and other assets should not be taxed, as they are earned.

Quote:

It's a good start, but needs to be further restricted, and joined with overall assets to be representative of proportionality of taxes and wealth.



There's two kinds of wealth: the kind you earn with your labor and talents and the kind you mooch off of others. LVT taxes the latter. The former should not be taxed at all.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4143786 - 05/06/05 07:08 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

So what? It's a tax on the privilege of having close access to those services.

Didn't you want proportionality of taxes? It doesn't bother me any way, It's just that in your plan taxes could easily be negated.

Actually, the LVT has the fewest loopholes of any tax ever invented. As far as I can determine, it has none whatsoever.

It's a good tax, don't get me wrong. But more limitations would be needed in terms of financial assets beyond land to gain tax revenue to meet true proportionality.

You can't move land, and other assets should not be taxed, as they are earned.

Why shouldn't other assets be taxed? The more money you have, and the more income you hold, the more you should have to pay, as you're more reliant on the system to gain that revenue... you earn more, you pay more into the system as it is proportional with your income. LVT has loopholes that can be overcome if you're talking about just using the LVT as well as taxes on products. The taxes shifted onto the products through the use of LVT would essentially destroy that form of proportionality, as they're earnings aren't proportional to the services being rendered through the tax. I don't have much of an issue with the LVT, but I do think it's incompatible with your desire for true proportionality.

There's two kinds of wealth: the kind you earn with your labor and talents and the kind you mooch off of others. LVT taxes the latter. The former should not be taxed at all.

What about non-profit organizations being exempt from this tax? What about the adverse effects on the real estate market with the issuance of the LVT? Beyond that, if a system is in place that accounts for all the necessary revenue for taxes through land and products... then I don't have much of an issue, provided its intention isn't to promote one economic demographic over another.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4143824 - 05/06/05 07:18 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

It seems almost like we're speaking different languages here, so how about you clear something up for me: What are you defining as proportionality?


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4143834 - 05/06/05 07:20 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

:smile: apparently.

Sheer and utter proportionality and the most absolute sense of the word of income to services; further proportional taxes to services rendered.

I gave an example in post  #4143175


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4143987 - 05/06/05 08:13 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Ok. I think you're misunderstanding something here: Higher income does not automatically equate to more services rendered. A higher availability of services tends to raise the land rent, which is what the LVT taxes. Then, on top of that, you can charge user fees for the use of certain services. For example, having a bus route near your house will raise the land rent, whether or not you use it. But those who do use it should have to pay more for it than those who don't, so the bus system should still charge for bus tickets and passes.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4144062 - 05/06/05 08:37 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Ya I understand that, why I proposed an actual proportional system using electronic credit... some degree of static values would be necessary for it, otherwise it'd be a nightmare to calculate the expenses. It could work in conjunction with the LVT... the thing that I was suggesting with proportionality is in terms of flat tax rates on products.

By electronically accounting for taxes incurred through spending, it'd be easier to give proportional deductions in terms of income spent, and services utilized.

I'm not so keen on the bus route expense... or similar taxes imposed by virtue of location... you additionally have to think about who rides the buses, and what areas the buses travel through. As riding the bus isn't associated with higher incomes, so thereby the LVT doesn't help in terms of proportionality of services rendered to income utilized.

Those that hold land in this case basically get reamed for their location, irregardless of their use of a service. It's a good tax, but could use some work if proportionality is the goal of utilizing it.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4144087 - 05/06/05 08:47 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, you lost me...are you saying people with higher incomes be taxed higher, regardless of how that income is obtained? If so, why?


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4144381 - 05/06/05 10:33 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

:nonono:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4144384 - 05/06/05 10:35 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Hey, sorry. I'm just having trouble understanding you.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4144412 - 05/06/05 10:42 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Which parts?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4144493 - 05/06/05 11:09 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

By electronically accounting for taxes incurred through spending, it'd be easier to give proportional deductions in terms of income spent, and services utilized.



I don't get it. What taxes would be incurred through spending in my proposed model, apart from cases of true-cost accounting(such as with gas taxes)?

Quote:

I'm not so keen on the bus route expense... or similar taxes imposed by virtue of location... you additionally have to think about who rides the buses, and what areas the buses travel through. As riding the bus isn't associated with higher incomes, so thereby the LVT doesn't help in terms of proportionality of services rendered to income utilized.



Why should it matter if riding the bus isn't associated with higher incomes? I'm just talking about the rise in property values that comes with a nearby bus route.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4144748 - 05/07/05 12:54 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I think the problem some people have with LVT is that they see it as an amendment to our current tax system as opposed to a replacement for our tax system. LVT if enacted along with an elimination of all other taxes and an elimination of corporatism would be the least intrusive tax. Robbing Peter to pay Paul (welfare) isn't a legitimate function of government however a citizen dividend based on LVT would be a legitimate for of taxation.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4145045 - 05/07/05 03:05 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I don't get it. What taxes would be incurred through spending in my proposed model, apart from cases of true-cost accounting(such as with gas taxes)?

I just brought that up as a form of proportionate taxation (in a truer sense) as I thought that's what you were trying to achieve. You'd need to specify and outline how proportionate you'd want it to be, or else it could get overly complicated really fast.

Why should it matter if riding the bus isn't associated with higher incomes? I'm just talking about the rise in property values that comes with a nearby bus route.

I was associating wealth with property ownership.. which is a generalization, but does apply. I don't see the sense in forcing higher land taxes on those whose property is built where state/federal services are supplied. What of situations where the state just builds new transportation services (working on the example provided) in a neighborhood, why does that necessitate a higher tax?

It's part of public transportation, being such all the public should have to pay for it as a result. I think the LVT should instead be an overall property and land value tax, to make it more representative of the cost associated with the tax in its current form (bus route, and proximity would be tied to property assets); where property cost (in terms of assets on the land) is used as well as the value of the land (location/region factored into the land part). I don't see the LVT being applied in terms of the transportation model as being fair to those who are subject to it, and to the public at large.

In order for any of this to go over, you're going to need to have a relatively representative regional government that asks the population what it wants its taxes spent on in terms of public services, rather then just provides them and charges for it. (more in tune with a true democracy, at least regionally)

Unless you think people wouldn't mind being taxed more for a service that they won't necessarily use then others, and the reason being solely due to the proximity of it.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Taxation and Theft [Re: Silversoul]
    #4146003 - 05/07/05 11:50 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I'm assuming you live in USA, correct me if I'm wrong, that really isn't the issue anyhow.

Regardless of how taxes are accrued, that's merely 25% if not less of the big picture. We are not creating a self sustaining system, we're literally bending our collective asses over, and reassuring ourselves that it'll be slow but painful... and preparing ourselves to accept the coming deficit caused by an over extended bureaucracy.

The issue has much more with how a government is run, it should be run like a business, and it's profit to go to its shareholders, completely. Pure and simple. Those shareholders being the people.

For instance, tbh I don't see why SS is even an issue in the USA considering how much debt we've accrued by our poor spending habits. TBH we might as well just keep it as a deficit, keep the system, and stop spending... as that's essentially what we've been doing for a while. Without a government being held fully accountable for its spending habits, it's just going to get worse.

If the government were a business in regards to its spending habits... it would've folded a long time over. Greater accountability of spending behavior is only a start to satisfying the goal of any legitimate form of taxation. Secondly, it'd need to give its shareholders, as well as its employees more benefits, and more freedoms would need to be allotted as we all work so hard paying into this business, yet apparently we're still restricted and punished as a result, and our freedoms impinged because some suggest it a good thing.

That's just a good example of a failing system. You could tax the hell out of it, but it still isn't going to get you any farther, and is destined to repeat its current financial position due to shortsightedness, greed, and an overall lack of accountability.

A great maneuver to solve such a deficit, would be to tax all the companies affiliated with political parties that have directly gained from toying with our politics... corporations are merely entities and not individuals. A government supports its people primarily, and its corporations should be secondary, or even tertiary for that matter. :wink: I'm into hardcore justice and put more emphasis on the well being of people over businesses so :shrug:. Either way, a failing business will fail because of its business practices regardless of the revenue taken in, it's inane to suggest that everything will remain ok with our current lack of fiscal responsibility.

That can be applied to various other countries as well, but the USA currently and unfortunately makes a great example of the situation.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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