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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Posts: 27,301
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: retread]
    #3183047 - 09/26/04 05:46 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

retread said:
Quote:


Force gets paid back with force against those responsible.




Yes, but those responsible are dead. I suppose I'd have to see exactly how a suicide bombing takes place. If the family is aware of the attack before it happens, but does nothing to stop it, then they should be punished as accessories. This would happen after a trial though, rather than the minute the bomber is identified.



Usually, suicide bombings are planned by terrorist groups who find someone who wants to be a martyr and then train him and provide the explosives, so those responsible for this planning process could be brought to justice.

Quote:

Quote:


Here's the problem with your analogy: There were already Palestinians living in Israel when it was given to the Jews.




Yes, but it isn't their land. If I own an apartment complex with 50 families living there paying me rent, and I decide to sell it and bulldoze the comples, they can't have any rights in this matter. I'd give them notice, and the land that I own (re: the land that the brits own) would be given to the person that I deem it to be given to. If they had houses there before, tough shit.



Do you honestly believe that the government can justifiably claim to own the land(and all structures found therein)? Do you believe the American government can justifiably evict you from your own house just because it feels like it? This is what your argument indicates if followed to its logical conclusion.

Quote:

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They had their own homes, which belonged to the individual Palestinians, not the British government, and therefore Israel did not own those homes either. The Palestinians were kicked out of their homes, which rightfully belonged to them, and were not allowed to return. This constitutes a blatant violation of property rights.



Their houses were on soil that belongs to that country. If I was to go out and start building houses in America on public land, and noone noticed until I had rows and rows of them up, that wouldn't give me more of a claim to them.



Ah, so you do believe the government has complete ownership of the land. So much for the idea of private property.


--------------------


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3183321 - 09/26/04 07:16 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

ss7, I think this is a good post and the libertarian position is respected.

But, one must understand the situation before there is peace.

-A complete withdraw of the Israeli military from the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip.

-First, Israel MUST stop building illegal Jewish settlements on the little Palestinian territory that is left. These settlements violate a UN decree.

-Palestinians MUST be given the Right of Return to Israel. If they are not given this right, this will prove to the world that Israel is indeed an apartheid state.

-East Jerusalem must be given to the Palestinians so that Muslims finally have control of Masjid al Aqsa

-Israel must not compromise or jeopardize Palestinian indepedence by re-invading the entire West Bank just because some off shoot slipped into Israel and killed a few Israelis.

-Scores of innocent Palestinians detained by Israel must be released.

If Israel can meet these, Hamas, Qassam, Al Aqsa Martyrs, etc. said they would halt all martyrdom operations against Zionists and allow the road map to proceed.

Do you think Israel can meet in the middle?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3183340 - 09/26/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Second question.  Either way.  Good bye.



So then if the U.S. had lost the war in Iraq(I know it's a stretch, but let's suppose for the sake of argument that it happened), would that mean that Saddam would be justified in expelling those who welcomed the US as liberators?  Do you believe in freedom of speech?




:thumbup:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: Zahid]
    #3183423 - 09/26/04 07:59 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
-A complete withdraw of the Israeli military from the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip.



Sounds good, so long as they can still heavily guard the border.

Quote:

-First, Israel MUST stop building illegal Jewish settlements on the little Palestinian territory that is left. These settlements violate a UN decree.



While I don't think UN decrees amount to jack shit, I do think this is a practice which should stop. I think ideally what should happen is there should be a gradual handover of control of these settlements to Palestine. The settlers living there can either leave and return to Israel or stay and live under a Palestinian government(so long as that government does not expel them from their homes or otherwise initiate force against them). Of course, I'm only speaking in terms of what would be acceptable in libertarian terms, and since most of the world isn't libertarian, this is about as likely to happen as Charlie Daniels joining Al Queda.

Quote:

-Palestinians MUST be given the Right of Return to Israel. If they are not given this right, this will prove to the world that Israel is indeed an apartheid state.



In principle, I agree, but again, realistically, it's just not gonna happen.

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-East Jerusalem must be given to the Palestinians so that Muslims finally have control of Masjid al Aqsa



Sounds fairly reasonable to me, but then again, I'm not a religious extremist.

Quote:

-Israel must not compromise or jeopardize Palestinian indepedence by re-invading the entire West Bank just because some off shoot slipped into Israel and killed a few Israelis.



Sounds fair, so long as the Palestinian government agrees to cooperate in catching those responsible and handing them over to Israeli authorities.

Quote:

-Scores of innocent Palestinians detained by Israel must be released.



Depends what they're being detained for. I don't believe Israel should have to hand over convicted terrorists, but if they are being held unjustly, it would make sense to release them.

Quote:

If Israel can meet these, Hamas, Qassam, Al Aqsa Martyrs, etc. said they would halt all martyrdom operations against Zionists and allow the road map to proceed.



Unfortunately for you and the Palestinian people, I am not Israel.

Quote:

Do you think Israel can meet in the middle?



Depends on how you define meeting in the middle. I'm sure Israel would be willing to make a few compromises, but I highly doubt they're willing to meet all these conditions you named.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleretread
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Registered: 07/14/04
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3183742 - 09/26/04 10:01 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Usually, suicide bombings are planned by terrorist groups who find someone who wants to be a martyr and then train him and provide the explosives, so those responsible for this planning process could be brought to justice.




Then Hamas leaders being shot by Hellfire missiles while leaving a mosque, you are OK with that?
Quote:


Do you honestly believe that the government can justifiably claim to own the land(and all structures found therein)? Do you believe the American government can justifiably evict you from your own house just because it feels like it? This is what your argument indicates if followed to its logical conclusion.




So if I start building homes on public land, thats OK, right? Should the Indians be able to claim all of America again? So sorry, thats the way things work. Israel was given the land fair and square, and they can do whatever the hell they want with it. If you'd like, the public could be polled and see what they think? I'm sure that every-day Israelies don't want the Palestineans there.
Quote:


Ah, so you do believe the government has complete ownership of the land. So much for the idea of private property.



Good job dodging the question. Can I tell my builders to start making my houses in Yellowstone tomorrow or not?

Some libertarians are, honestly, just wrong. This IS America, the land is part of a nation. It's not some random plot of land, it's a country. The government can use imminent domain, if the majority think it's the right thing. Libertarians that think this way are as extremly whacko as the Alex-type Liberals are.


Also, barring all of this, a country DOES have the right to evict who it chooses, does it not?


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Invisibleretread
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: Zahid]
    #3183752 - 09/26/04 10:03 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I think you are just going to have to settle for your entire religion to be held hostage and bitch-fucked prison style by the infidels. Time to start building the wall, enjoy your side of it.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: retread]
    #3183756 - 09/26/04 10:04 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Then Hamas leaders being shot by Hellfire missiles while leaving a mosque, you are OK with that?

9 other innocent worshippers were killed when Yassin was martyred.

So if I start building homes on public land, thats OK, right? Should the Indians be able to claim all of America again? So sorry, thats the way things work. Israel was given the land fair and square, and they can do whatever the hell they want with it. If you'd like, the public could be polled and see what they think? I'm sure that every-day Israelies don't want the Palestineans there.

Ah, so confiscating land is OK in your book. Sad.


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Invisibleretread
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: Zahid]
    #3183839 - 09/26/04 10:27 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:

9 other innocent worshippers were killed when Yassin was martyred.




you can't possibly think that I care, do you? Gotta break some eggs to make a quadripeligic omlette.
Quote:


Ah, so confiscating land is OK in your book. Sad.




I saw how Allah protected some Hamas leader in Syria today, and some al Quada figure in Pakistan. Oh allah the blessed. Fucker of mighty camels, protector of scumfuck dictators.

I'd ask if you were related to any of them, but 19 year old white kids who THINK they are Arab, still aren't.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: retread]
    #3183958 - 09/26/04 11:00 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

retread said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Usually, suicide bombings are planned by terrorist groups who find someone who wants to be a martyr and then train him and provide the explosives, so those responsible for this planning process could be brought to justice.




Then Hamas leaders being shot by Hellfire missiles while leaving a mosque, you are OK with that?



If they only hit the Hammas leaders, then I have no problem with it.

Quote:

Quote:


Do you honestly believe that the government can justifiably claim to own the land(and all structures found therein)? Do you believe the American government can justifiably evict you from your own house just because it feels like it? This is what your argument indicates if followed to its logical conclusion.




So if I start building homes on public land, thats OK, right? Should the Indians be able to claim all of America again? So sorry, thats the way things work. Israel was given the land fair and square, and they can do whatever the hell they want with it. If you'd like, the public could be polled and see what they think? I'm sure that every-day Israelies don't want the Palestineans there.



You're making less and less sense here. You can go ahead and buy land and build homes on it, if that's what you mean. As for the Native Americans, any surviving ones who still hold the deed to their house should be able to return to it. They do not have a right to land which they personally never owned. As for Israel, it was not given the deed to everything built upon that land. It was given political jurisdiction over the area, meaning that people living in that area were subject to the Israeli government and its laws. That does not mean that all the private property within that area suddenly became the property of the Israeli government. Why do you have such a hard time understanding the difference between private property and government jurisdiction?

Quote:

Quote:


Ah, so you do believe the government has complete ownership of the land. So much for the idea of private property.



Good job dodging the question. Can I tell my builders to start making my houses in Yellowstone tomorrow or not?



Yellowstone is an example of state property, which should not exist. Under a true libertarian society, this property would be sold to an environmental group such as the Sierra Club, rather than controlled by government interests.

Quote:

Some libertarians are, honestly, just wrong. This IS America, the land is part of a nation. It's not some random plot of land, it's a country. The government can use imminent domain, if the majority think it's the right thing. Libertarians that think this way are as extremly whacko as the Alex-type Liberals are.



You still have no clue about the difference between jurisdiction and property, do you?


Quote:

Also, barring all of this, a country DOES have the right to evict who it chooses, does it not?



Not without due process. A person cannot be rightfully evicted from their own property without due cause. If you believe they can, then you have no concept of individual liberty.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3183976 - 09/26/04 11:04 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I'm curious ss7, if a Palestinian gunned down Ariel Sharon, would that be 'ok'?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: Zahid]
    #3184028 - 09/26/04 11:19 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Well, considering that he is the head of the Israeli military, I guess that would make him a legitimate target.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3184046 - 09/26/04 11:25 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Fair enough.. you libertarians aren't that bad afterall.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: Zahid]
    #26572223 - 04/02/20 12:26 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

.


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