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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Property=theft?
    #3155955 - 09/20/04 03:39 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I've heard this argument put forth by collectivists countering the libertarian argument against taxation. I have to say, I'm a bit confused by it. How can you say that property is theft when theft implies the initiation of force against one's property?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3156101 - 09/20/04 04:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

> How can you say that property is theft when theft implies the initiation of force against one's property?

Speaking of America, I guess the Indians just gave the land to the white man out of kindness?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: Seuss]
    #3156116 - 09/20/04 04:12 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I don't see what that has to do with the topic.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3156191 - 09/20/04 04:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I believe it was Proudhon who first coined the phrase. His defense of it is riddled with logical contradictions, which is why to all except the most fervent Anarcho-syndicalists it remains a nonsense phrase.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: Phred]
    #3156209 - 09/20/04 04:29 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
I believe it was Proudhon who first coined the phrase. His defense of it is riddled with logical contradictions, which is why to all except the most fervent Anarcho-syndicalists it remains a nonsense phrase.



So I guess it's a bit of a shame that the most fervent Anarcho-syndicalist on the board (supposedly) has me on ignore.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3156289 - 09/20/04 04:41 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"Property Is Theft" is a nonsense phrase, but it was a good song by TSOL.





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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3156405 - 09/20/04 05:01 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


So I guess it's a bit of a shame that the most fervent Anarcho-syndicalist on the board (supposedly) has me on ignore.



CLAIMS to have you on ignore. You don't actually believe that, do you?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3156434 - 09/20/04 05:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That's why I used the word "supposedly."


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3156501 - 09/20/04 05:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I saw the supposedly. Supposedly is neutral enough to be non-committal. I'm asking what you think.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3156538 - 09/20/04 05:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I would expect someone with a total lack of mental maturity to use the ignore feature quite liberally. It's easier to put someone on ignore than to come up with a rational rebuttal or to read their posts and just let their comments slide or to admit you are wrong about something.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: Evolving]
    #3156550 - 09/20/04 05:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

True enough but I feel there isn't enough self-control from that type of individual to actually follow through. Curiosity will, IMO, compel them to "sneak a peak" or to simply claim to have someone on ignore.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3156574 - 09/20/04 05:42 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Who's the Anarcho-syndicalist?


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineTao
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3156921 - 09/20/04 07:14 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

i don't personally hold the view but perhaps it stems from disagreeing with lockean principles of acquisition. for if you don't believe one can justify acquiring anything, everything is held in common. Therefore if one calls something their 'property', refusing anyone else access to it and calling it their own, it is taking something from the common and thus 'stealing' from everyone else.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: Tao]
    #3157009 - 09/20/04 07:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
i don't personally hold the view but perhaps it stems from disagreeing with lockean principles of acquisition. for if you don't believe one can justify acquiring anything, everything is held in common. Therefore if one calls something their 'property', refusing anyone else access to it and calling it their own, it is taking something from the common and thus 'stealing' from everyone else.




or from the unborn.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineTao
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: BleaK]
    #3157060 - 09/20/04 07:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

very good point. some are born already entitled to immense amounts of property while others are entitled to hardly anything. neither has done anything in the way of 'acquiring' so to the unentitled side, it seems like 'stealing' when the other side claims certain property as already theirs without having done anything to acquire it.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: Tao]
    #3157077 - 09/20/04 07:53 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't steal anything from the unborn. I earned it myself.

The "unborn" objection assumes that those who happened to pop into existence before someone else have no right to keep what they earn or what they are freely given by others, merely because someone else may be born after they were. Of course, one can play that game ad infinitum.

pinky


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: Phred]
    #3158030 - 09/20/04 11:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

i agree mostly pink.
but i think if u are going to hoard everything. then you shouldnt reproduce, as there will be nothing for the newborns.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Property=theft? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3158422 - 09/21/04 01:07 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Too tired for original commentary right now so I'm just posting this because I just saw it a few weeks ago.

Quote:



Property is theft. -- P.J. Proudhon

Property is liberty. -- P.J. Proudhon

Property is impossible. -- P.J. Proudhon

Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson


Proudhon, by piling up his contradictions this way, was not merely being French; he was trying to indicate that the abstraction "property" covers a variety of phenomena, some pernicious and some beneficial. Let us borrow a device from the semanticists and examine his triad with the subscripts attached for maximum clarity.

"Property1 is theft" means that property1 created by the artificial laws of feudal, capitalist, and other authoritarian societies, is based on armed robbery. Land titles, for instance, are clear examples of property1; swords and shot were the original coins of transaction.

"Property2 is liberty" means that property2, that which will be voluntarily honored in a voluntary (anarchist) society, is the foundation of the liberty in that society. The more people's interests are co-mingled and confused, as in collectivism, the more they will be stepping on each other's toes; only when the rules of the game declare clearly "This is mine and this is thine," and the game is voluntarily accepted as worthwhile by the parties to it, can true independence be achieved.

"Property3 is impossible" means that property3 (=property1) creates so much conflict of interest that society is in perpetual undeclared civil war and must eventually devour itself (and properties 1 and 3 as well). In short, Proudhon, in his own way, foresaw the Snafu Principle. He also foresaw that communism would only perpetuate and aggravate the conflicts, and that anarchy is the only viable alternative to this chaos.

It is averred, of course, that property2 will come into existence only in a totally voluntary society; many forms of it already exist. The error of most alleged libertarians -- especially the followers (!) of the egregious Ayn Rand -- is to assume that all property1 is property2. The distinction can be made by any IQ above 70 and is absurdly simple. The test is to ask, of any title of ownership you are asked to accept or which you ask others to accept, "Would this be honored in a free society of rationalists, or does it require the armed might of a State to force people to honor it?" If it be the former, it is property2 and represents liberty; if it be the latter, it is property1 and represents theft.

R.A.W




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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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