Home | Community | Message Board


MRCA Tyroler Gluckspilze
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict
    #3182305 - 09/26/04 01:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'd like to get a sense of how the libertarians here feel about this. Not so much who's right and who's wrong(IMO, you're fucking deluded if you think only one side is to blame), but rather how libertarian principles apply here. Personally, as a libertarian, I feel that the Israelis have a right to defend themselves from terrorists, but this does not mean going after their families unless their families can be shown to be directly involved. I feel the Palestinians have a right to bear arms and to defend their property, but this does not mean killing innocent civilians. I feel the US government has no right to steal money from the American taxpayer to fund Israel's military. I feel that both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to practice their religion, but not to impose it upon others. I feel that maintaining a Jewish homeland is not a good enough excuse to deny Palestinians the right of return(though if someone can show me a better reason, I'm all ears). What do you think?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182340 - 09/26/04 01:53 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Before the Israelis had to deal with terrorists they had to deal with their neighbors, who attempted to drive them into the sea. The invaders lost, badly and embarrassingly, and lost territory as well. Some Palestinians sided with the invading neighbors. They were expelled. They lost. Tough shit for them. They will never be allowed to return. They may some day get some state out of some of the "Occupied Territories" but they will not be returning to Israel.

The UN said that Israel could exist. The neighbors didn't like it so they ignored the UN and invaded. And here is the only necessary justification for telling the Palestinians and the Arabs that they can fuck themselves. They fucking lost. They got their incompetent asses kicked by a tiny nation. They underestimated their enemy and got bitch slapped.

And just in case I haven't said it enough, the astonishingly incompetent Arabs LOST, LOST, LOST. Apparently the only people they can successfully wage war against (not for a lack of practice) is each other and that's only because there are utter incompetents and cowards on both sides.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182343 - 09/26/04 01:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with every sentiment you expressed. To emphasize two points:
  • outside of the general libertarian position that foreign aid is unconstitutional and wrong, foreign aid in this situation is GROSSLY immoral. To force Arabs to subsidize the Israeli regime they despise and to force Jews to subsidize the Palestinian/Arab regimes they despise is deplorable. Individuals in a free society should be at liberty to give however much of their money they want to whichever cause they want. How I wish I was an individual in a free society.
  • as someone born and raised a Jew I was privy to many a family dinner in which the topic of Israel came up. It took me quite a while to rid myself of the notion that the argument 'a 'Jewish' state has to be maintained' is legitimate. Without a deep knowledge of the history and politics of the region it is hard to take a position on the case for a right of return. Certainly if a Palestinian family can prove they were forced off land in Israel they should be allowed to return. I can't imagine a lot of this proof exists though.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


Edited by Ancalagon (09/26/04 02:03 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3182411 - 09/26/04 02:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Before the Israelis had to deal with terrorists they had to deal with their neighbors, who attempted to drive them into the sea. The invaders lost, badly and embarrassingly, and lost territory as well. Some Palestinians sided with the invading neighbors. They were expelled. They lost. Tough shit for them. They will never be allowed to return. They may some day get some state out of some of the "Occupied Territories" but they will not be returning to Israel.

The UN said that Israel could exist. The neighbors didn't like it so they ignored the UN and invaded. And here is the only necessary justification for telling the Palestinians and the Arabs that they can fuck themselves. They fucking lost. They got their incompetent asses kicked by a tiny nation. They underestimated their enemy and got bitch slapped.

And just in case I haven't said it enough, the astonishingly incompetent Arabs LOST, LOST, LOST. Apparently the only people they can successfully wage war against (not for a lack of practice) is each other and that's only because there are utter incompetents and cowards on both sides.



A couple questions:

1. You mention that the UN said Israel had a right to exist. Do you believe that the UN has the legitimate authority to recognize or not recognize states? From what do they derive this authority?

2. You claim that because some Arab nations ignored the UN and attacked Israel that this justifies telling the Palestinians to "go fuck themselves." Does this mean that you believe the Palestinians have no rights? Do you believe all Arabs, regardless of whether or not they were involved in that war, should be held accountable for the actions of those nations?

3. Do you believe that siding with the losing side justifies the expulsion of people from their homes(and thus the theft of their property)?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182449 - 09/26/04 02:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

1. I only mention the UN because that is apparently the only recourse short of arms. The neighbors didn't care and brought arms to bear. The UN didn't help Israel at all. Israel did not invade Egypt, Jordan and Syria. In the end it is only force of arms that secures any state's right to exist. The UN is a bunch of corrupt, feckless parasites who can accomplish nothing greater than raise a great wind and collect parking tickets which they don't pay.

2. Not all Palestinians were expelled, only those that sided with the invaders. There are still Israeli Arabs living and voting in Israel.

3. In a war? Yes. They were traitors and sided with an external aggressor. Goodbye.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3182471 - 09/26/04 02:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
1. I only mention the UN because that is apparently the only recourse short of arms. The neighbors didn't care and brought arms to bear. The UN didn't help Israel at all. Israel did not invade Egypt, Jordan and Syria. In the end it is only force of arms that secures any state's right to exist. The UN is a bunch of corrupt, feckless parasites who can accomplish nothing greater than raise a great wind and collect parking tickets which they don't pay.



Only force of arms secures a state's right to exist? Are you suggesting that might makes right?

Quote:

2. Not all Palestinians were expelled, only those that sided with the invaders. There are still Israeli Arabs living and voting in Israel.

3. In a war? Yes. They were traitors and sided with an external aggressor. Goodbye.



Maybe I'm a bit confused, but what exactly is meant by "siding" with the external aggressor? Does this mean they took up arms against the state of Israel, or did they merely welcome the foreign invaders as liberators?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182521 - 09/26/04 02:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, only force of arms secures a state's right to exist. If you have any evidence that there is anything else, let me know. As to the might makes right issue, right and wrong is if no relevance. (I trust you're not confusing the two meanings of the word "right" here.)

Second question. Either way. Good bye.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3182536 - 09/26/04 03:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Second question. Either way. Good bye.



So then if the U.S. had lost the war in Iraq(I know it's a stretch, but let's suppose for the sake of argument that it happened), would that mean that Saddam would be justified in expelling those who welcomed the US as liberators? Do you believe in freedom of speech?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182572 - 09/26/04 03:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

SS7, just to clarify, what moral guidelines do you think countries should be following when interacting with each other?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: Gijith]
    #3182594 - 09/26/04 03:21 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
SS7, just to clarify, what moral guidelines do you think countries should be following when interacting with each other?



I believe that countries, like individuals, should not initiate force against one another. If a country is attacked, it has a right to defend itself. However, this defense should not involve stripping its own citizens of their rights. This includes citizens who dissent, or even those who root for the enemy.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182598 - 09/26/04 03:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Wouldn't this just lead to massive empires?
I mean without any sort of authority to enforce that ideal?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: Gijith]
    #3182642 - 09/26/04 03:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not sure I see what you mean. The UN doesn't really have much ability to enforce its decrees anyway, so it's pretty much what we have today, except that might does not make right.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182661 - 09/26/04 03:41 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I mean (and I'm sorry this is getting off topic, but I'm starting to develop an interest in Libertarianism and am currently too busy with schoolwork to read a lot on it) let's say the system you're proposing is in place. But one country decides to break the rules and invade another country, then another and another and another. These lesser countries can't defend themselves against the growing imperialist nation blah blah blah. Is there anything in Libertarianism to keep this kind of rule breaking in check?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: Gijith]
    #3182709 - 09/26/04 03:55 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Under libertarianism, you can ask others to help you defend yourself, as long as you do not ask them to initiate force against someone for you. So other countries may come to the defense of a country which is being attacked. For a country to come to another's defense is not initiation of force, so long as it does not initiate force against its citizens in the process. Once the invasion is thwarted, the countries involved must not initiate force against their enemy, even as an act of retribution(note that retribution and retaliation are not the same thing).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182729 - 09/26/04 03:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you. Clarified.
:cheers:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182777 - 09/26/04 04:11 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This is a glaring problem of libertarianism though, and its 'natural' property rights. How do you determine when someone 'owns' a piece of land? I find Locke's theories to be of little help. How do you define 'mixing your labor with the soil'? How do you determine how much land that then entitles you to? When certain land is so desired, it seems like a zero-sum game so that following the mantra of 'as much and as good land for everyone else' is impossible once one group has the land and the other does not.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182850 - 09/26/04 04:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I'd like to get a sense of how the libertarians here feel about this.  Not so much who's right and who's wrong(IMO, you're fucking deluded if you think only one side is to blame)




:thumbup:
Quote:


Personally, as a libertarian, I feel that the Israelis have a right to defend themselves from terrorists, but this does not mean going after their families unless their families can be shown to be directly involved.




The parents were the ones that taught the person to hate Israel. I suppose if you were to really attack the source of the problem that was directly involved, it would involve bombing Arafats compound and destroying the madrassas in the iddle east.  The thing is, when it's a suicide/homicide bomber, what the hell can you do? Wet-vac the pieces up and put them on trial? Retaliation against families is meant more as preventative maintenance rather thanpunitive measures.

The suicide bombers initiated force, force gets paid back with force.
Quote:


  I feel the Palestinians have a right to bear arms and to defend their property, but this does not mean killing innocent civilians.




What property? The land of Israel isn't Palestine, Trans-Jordan isn't Palestine.
Quote:


  I feel the US government has no right to steal money from the American taxpayer to fund Israel's military.




Agreed.
Quote:


  I feel that both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to practice their religion, but not to impose it upon others.




Agreed.
Quote:


I feel that maintaining a Jewish homeland is not a good enough excuse to deny Palestinians the right of return(though if someone can show me a better reason, I'm all ears).  What do you think?



If I owned a plot of land in America and bequethed it to a yogic ashram, it would have every right to do whatever they wanted with that land. They could put up a 50" wall around it manned with snipers and attack dogs. Same with Israel.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: retread]
    #3182922 - 09/26/04 05:01 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

retread said:
Quote:


Personally, as a libertarian, I feel that the Israelis have a right to defend themselves from terrorists, but this does not mean going after their families unless their families can be shown to be directly involved.




The parents were the ones that taught the person to hate Israel. I suppose if you were to really attack the source of the problem that was directly involved, it would involve bombing Arafats compound and destroying the madrassas in the iddle east. The thing is, when it's a suicide/homicide bomber, what the hell can you do? Wet-vac the pieces up and put them on trial? Retaliation against families is meant more as preventative maintenance rather thanpunitive measures.



First of all, you don't know for certain that the parents taught them to hate Israel. You are only assuming that to be true, and even if it is, teaching hate is not equivalent to instructing someone to commit murder. And even if punishing the families is effective as a preventative measure, this does not justify punishing the innocent. This is what sets us libertarians apart: We do not accept infringements upon individual rights, even if it is for the better of the whole.

Quote:

The suicide bombers initiated force, force gets paid back with force.



Force gets paid back with force against those responsible. If the family can be proven to have played a direct role in the attack, then they may be punished, but otherwise you may only punish those who are responsible(btw, this includes the people who planned the attack, not just the ones who execute it).

Quote:

Quote:


I feel the Palestinians have a right to bear arms and to defend their property, but this does not mean killing innocent civilians.




What property? The land of Israel isn't Palestine, Trans-Jordan isn't Palestine.



Palestinians own these things called homes. Maybe you've heard of them. They may justifiably defend their homes against any attempt to destroy them(read: bulldozing).

Quote:

Quote:


I feel that maintaining a Jewish homeland is not a good enough excuse to deny Palestinians the right of return(though if someone can show me a better reason, I'm all ears). What do you think?



If I owned a plot of land in America and bequethed it to a yogic ashram, it would have every right to do whatever they wanted with that land. They could put up a 50" wall around it manned with snipers and attack dogs. Same with Israel.



Here's the problem with your analogy: There were already Palestinians living in Israel when it was given to the Jews. They had their own homes, which belonged to the individual Palestinians, not the British government, and therefore Israel did not own those homes either. The Palestinians were kicked out of their homes, which rightfully belonged to them, and were not allowed to return. This constitutes a blatant violation of property rights.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #3182997 - 09/26/04 05:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
First of all, you don't know for certain that the parents taught them to hate Israel. You are only assuming that to be true, and even if it is, teaching hate is not equivalent to instructing someone to commit murder. And even if punishing the families is effective as a preventative measure, this does not justify punishing the innocent. This is what sets us libertarians apart: We do not accept infringements upon individual rights, even if it is for the better of the whole.




Agreed. Bulldozing houses probably isn't the most libertarian of things. But building a huge wall is. Noone is having force initated upon them.
Quote:


Force gets paid back with force against those responsible.




Yes, but those responsible are dead. I suppose I'd have to see exactly how a suicide bombing takes place. If the family is aware of the attack before it happens, but does nothing to stop it, then they should be punished as accessories. This would happen after a trial though, rather than the minute the bomber is identified.
Quote:


If the family can be proven to have played a direct role in the attack, then they may be punished
[/quote
Hah, great minds think alike.
Quote:


but otherwise you may only punish those who are responsible(btw, this includes the people who planned the attack, not just the ones who execute it).




Agreed.
Quote:


Palestinians own these things called homes. Maybe you've heard of them. They may justifiably defend their homes against any attempt to destroy them(read: bulldozing).




If I build a house on property that isn't mine, the house isn't "mine". Does Palestine truely exist, I suppose would be my question. However, persuant to this thread, I think that the libertarian's among us, myself included, would have to say that what we've listed above is the way to go, not bulldozing houses.
Quote:


Here's the problem with your analogy: There were already Palestinians living in Israel when it was given to the Jews.




Yes, but it isn't their land. If I own an apartment complex with 50 families living there paying me rent, and I decide to sell it and bulldoze the comples, they can't have any rights in this matter. I'd give them notice, and the land that I own (re: the land that the brits own) would be given to the person that I deem it to be given to. If they had houses there before, tough shit.
Quote:


They had their own homes, which belonged to the individual Palestinians, not the British government, and therefore Israel did not own those homes either. The Palestinians were kicked out of their homes, which rightfully belonged to them, and were not allowed to return. This constitutes a blatant violation of property rights.



Their houses were on soil that belongs to that country. If I was to go out and start building houses in America on public land, and noone noticed until I had rows and rows of them up, that wouldn't give me more of a claim to them.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Libertarians and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict [Re: Tao]
    #3183010 - 09/26/04 05:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
This is a glaring problem of libertarianism though, and its 'natural' property rights. How do you determine when someone 'owns' a piece of land? I find Locke's theories to be of little help. How do you define 'mixing your labor with the soil'? How do you determine how much land that then entitles you to? When certain land is so desired, it seems like a zero-sum game so that following the mantra of 'as much and as good land for everyone else' is impossible once one group has the land and the other does not.



This is a rather interesting question, especially for a geolibertarian like me, since I believe that nobody really owns the land(at least not in the sense of private property). While people may own houses, buildings, etc., I have to admit that I have difficulty justifying the existence of borders, especially since (a) they imply government ownership of land, and (b) they seem rather arbitrary, not corresponding to any amount of labor put into them. I'll have to give this some more thought. I'll get back to you on this.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Israel-US Approved Ethnic Cleansing
( 1 2 all )
headphone 3,461 20 09/03/01 10:05 PM
by zetek
* Israel threatens walk out of U.N. race conference Ellis Dee 916 2 09/04/01 07:01 AM
by madscientist
* PALESTINIANS FIRE MORTARS INTO ISRAEL lonestar2004 519 7 09/15/05 10:45 AM
by Baby_Hitler
* Israelis are very loving and generous people
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
question_for_joo 5,116 92 08/17/05 10:02 PM
by Redstorm
* Israel vs. Iraq Biased, but interesting
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Buddha5254 9,168 133 11/08/02 01:01 PM
by Innvertigo
* Is Palestinian terror caused by a genetic defect?
( 1 2 3 all )
Luddite 3,905 58 11/01/06 08:29 AM
by Aldous
* Israeli/Palestinian Solution
( 1 2 all )
Prodijal_Son 2,745 31 05/06/03 02:59 PM
by Cracka_X
* The subtle media mind control using words - Israeli soldiers: Arrested, Detained Or Kidnapped? MAIA 938 3 07/28/06 12:00 PM
by Hank, FTW

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil
1,991 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
SoulSpeciosa Kratom
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.043 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 18 queries.