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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24356734 - 05/28/17 03:51 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:rofl:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #24356746 - 05/28/17 03:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Its extra funny because all the existing workplace laws that he probably agrees with (40 hour work week, overtime laws, lunch breaks, safety regulations) exist because of socialists.


--------------------


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24356767 - 05/28/17 04:12 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Smokescreen to the effect that the Fed does not desire for the breakup of big banks.

I disagree with your assertion that the SFP was sound ecomonic policy as it contradicts the very premise of breaking up To Big to Fail

.....the effect of the SFP was to “drain deposits from accounts of depository institutions at the Federal Reserve”, since bank reserves are treated as “base money” another way of saying that is the Fed was,  in cahoots Treasury Department, taking money from the banking system during a finiancial panic....therby providing an impetus for the doom and gloom narrative.

Support of my claim can be read here:
http://www.alhambrapartners.com/2017/03/06/if-you-believe-there-was-too-much-money-during-the-monetary-panic-then-why-not-heroin/

I am aware of the circular agruments surrounding economics and I am nor trying to prove you wrong my friend....just my opinion on a policy that promotes the negative preception of the Fed.

Do you feel the Fed does not prop up big banks?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (05/28/17 04:13 PM)


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24356783 - 05/28/17 04:23 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:

Quote:


So work is NOT voluntary as you claimed.  Since people are forced to work under capitalism, shouldn't Government set rules around employment, like minimum wage, overtime pay, safety, etc.




it's entirely voluntary, there just happens to be consequences for choosing not to.






By that reasoning, slavery was voluntary...

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/voluntary
Quote:


voluntary
/ˈvɒləntərɪ; -trɪ/
adjective
1.
performed, undertaken, or brought about by free choice, willingly, or without being asked: a voluntary donation
2.
(of persons) serving or acting in a specified function of one's own accord and without compulsion or promise of remuneration: a voluntary social worker








yes forced labor is entirely the same as someone choosing not to labor./s


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24356791 - 05/28/17 04:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Its extra funny because all the existing workplace laws that he probably agrees with (40 hour work week, overtime laws, lunch breaks, safety regulations) exist because of socialists.




Can you make distinctions between reasonable requests and utopia fantasy?


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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24356817 - 05/28/17 04:30 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Its extra funny because all the existing workplace laws that he probably agrees with (40 hour work week, overtime laws, lunch breaks, safety regulations) exist because of socialists.




Can you make distinctions between reasonable requests and utopia fantasy?




A 40 hour work week is a utopian fantasy?


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24356824 - 05/28/17 04:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Its extra funny because all the existing workplace laws that he probably agrees with (40 hour work week, overtime laws, lunch breaks, safety regulations) exist because of socialists.




Can you make distinctions between reasonable requests and utopia fantasy?




A 40 hour work week is a utopian fantasy?




Oh god help us..


distinctions between reasonable requests


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24356831 - 05/28/17 04:37 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I disagree with your assertion that the SFP was sound ecomonic policy as it contradicts the very premise of breaking up To Big to Fail

.....the effect of the SFP was to “drain deposits from accounts of depository institutions at the Federal Reserve”, since bank reserves are treated as “base money” another way of saying that is the Fed was,  in cahoots Treasury Department, taking money from the banking system during a finiancial panic....therby providing an impetus for the doom and gloom narrative.

Support of my claim can be read here:
http://www.alhambrapartners.com/2017/03/06/if-you-believe-there-was-too-much-money-during-the-monetary-panic-then-why-not-heroin/



I think you might be confusing two different concepts.  There is absolutely no question that the Fed stepped in to save 'too big to fail' banks.  They HAD to in order to prevent a further collapse of the economy.

Now, at least one key person has said they don't want to have to do that again, and recommended breaking up the big banks so we can let them fail next time without taking down the whole economy.

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I am aware of the circular agruments surrounding economics and I am not trying to prove you wrong my friend....just my opinion on a policy that promotes the negative preception of the Fed.

Do you feel the Fed does not prop up big banks?



It depends on what you mean by 'prop up'?  Yes, the Fed helped the big banks during the Great Recession; I think they had to.  And now they've said it's better not to let them get 'too big to fail' in the first place.  But that's something only Congress can stop.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24356836 - 05/28/17 04:40 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Can you make distinctions between reasonable requests and utopia fantasy?




A 40 hour work week is a utopian fantasy?




Oh god help us..


distinctions between reasonable requests



What's an example of utopian fantasy?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24356840 - 05/28/17 04:41 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Its extra funny because all the existing workplace laws that he probably agrees with (40 hour work week, overtime laws, lunch breaks, safety regulations) exist because of socialists.




Can you make distinctions between reasonable requests and utopia fantasy?




Of course.


--------------------


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24356845 - 05/28/17 04:42 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Can you make distinctions between reasonable requests and utopia fantasy?




A 40 hour work week is a utopian fantasy?




Oh god help us..


distinctions between reasonable requests



What's an example of utopian fantasy?  :shrug:




Universal healthcare with no downsides.
Higher minimum wage with no downsides.
Government can solve people problems.
Soviet Union wasn't that bad.


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OfflineTNK
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24356853 - 05/28/17 04:44 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Is it fantasy if it can be achieved?

Not all things unreasonable are unachievable, and all things in life come with downsides, that's the nature of our world. Show me one thing that is without a single downside?

Are we still talking about the Soviet union? What are we comparing it to in order to determine if it was "that bad" or wasn't "That bad", what's the base line of the determining bad?


--------------------
:goat: "1234go was the type of kid that eats a bananna with two hands."


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24356864 - 05/28/17 04:48 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Universal healthcare with no downsides.
Higher minimum wage with no downsides.



I'm pretty sure no one claimed "no downsides".  The claims were that the downsides of these are less than the downsides of not having these.

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Government can solve people problems.
Soviet Union wasn't that bad.



Can you provide evidence that either of those are fantasies?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24356873 - 05/28/17 04:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Nobody is saying there arent downsides. Theyre, we're, saying its better than the alternative (shitty healthcare, slave wages,


--------------------


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InvisibleBlueMillionMiles
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cyrus19] * 1
    #24356881 - 05/28/17 04:53 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
I think people are owed a basic standard of living regardless of there contributions to society.




:rolleyes:

I'm really struggling with how you chose to use the word "owed." Why should they be "owed"? Because they were born? If I read this thread correctly, you support the idea of socialism, yet you believe that it somehow doesn't entail one's contributions to society? Am I correct in that, or have I misread?


--------------------
Intellectual property & copyright laws took care of the privileged few,  while we just pay more for less shit, have no privacy, and can't scratch our ass without a follow-up targeted ad for over-priced hemorrhoid cream.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24356888 - 05/28/17 04:56 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Government can solve people problems.
Soviet Union wasn't that bad.



Can you provide evidence that either of those are fantasies?




Can you provide evidence it wasn't that bad?
"A guy told me he wants to go back"
yeah and a guy told me it sucked, big whoop.


Government can't help those than wont help themselves.
That requires admission that people are entities capable of making their own choices for better or worse.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24356891 - 05/28/17 04:57 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

No, maybee I wasnt being clear, I understand the difference of the bailout and an ecominic tool cited above.

I dont buy the doomsday narrative to the extent it has sold to the American public. In fact the FSP was a tool to aid that. We will never know as it was not allowed to surface....it certainly changed my views on what is preceived to be a free market economy.If the banks did not have sufficent reserves or liquidity( another failure of Congress to require more
...to this day) they should have failed


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: BlueMillionMiles]
    #24356895 - 05/28/17 04:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlwaysInHarmony said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
I think people are owed a basic standard of living regardless of there contributions to society.




:rolleyes:

I'm really struggling with how you chose to use the word "owed." Why should they be "owed"? Because they were born? If I read this thread correctly, you support the idea of socialism, yet you believe that it somehow doesn't entail one's contributions to society? Am I correct in that, or have I misread?



I'm guessing he meant that people who work full time should get a basic standard of living regardless of the size of their contributions to society.

I personally don't think that able bodied people who choose not to work are owed a thing.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24356897 - 05/28/17 05:01 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Its extra funny because all the existing workplace laws that he probably agrees with (40 hour work week, overtime laws, lunch breaks, safety regulations) exist because of socialists.




Can you make distinctions between reasonable requests and utopia fantasy?




A 40 hour work week is a utopian fantasy?





Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
C

Universal healthcare with no downsides.
Higher minimum wage with no downsides.
Government can solve people problems.
Soviet Union wasn't that bad.



I know alot of russian immigrants and talked to them they tell me after Stalin the Soviet Union wasn't that bad. Sure they didn't gorge themselves on consumer goods like americans but they had there needs met free travel anywhere in the country free healthcare it wasn't Mordor lol. Universal healthcare could work here in the states just cut the military budget no tax increase required.


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OfflineCinnamon
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Re: Why Socialism? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24356899 - 05/28/17 05:02 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Nobody is saying there arent downsides. Theyre, we're, saying its better than the alternative (shitty healthcare, slave wages,





If you're earning min wage you'll be lucky to eat that night. /s


No one should be able to buy a house on minimum wage or raise a family.
that's insanity, it should be a wage for kids to pay their parents rent and put gas in their car to go study while they improve themselves.


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