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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2438777 - 03/16/04 10:25 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Odd how the same people who believed the fairytale of WMD are the same ones who believe invading Iraq was about stopping terrorists.

Funny you should mention that, because here's what I read just a little while ago:

"But the British foreign minister, Jack Straw, said turning away from Iraq and changing strategies in the campaign against terrorism would do more harm than good. "Nobody, nobody, nobody should believe that somehow we can opt out of the war against Islamic terrorism," he said. "The idea that, somehow, there is some exemption certificate for this war against terrorism is utter nonsense."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/16/international/europe/16SPAI.html

Notice how he talks about the war in Iraq and "the war against Islamic terrorism" as if they were one and the same, completely interchangeable. Not even now do these slime have the honesty to admit that ONE (an unnecessary war in Iraq) is diverting attention and resources away from the OTHER (fighting actual terrorist organizations and containing the WMD programs of countries like Pakistan and North Korea).

Here's an interesting article that addresses that very issue:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040329&s=schell

Here's a key passage:

Proliferation, however, is not, as the President seemed to think, just a rogue state or two seeking weapons of mass destruction; it is the entire half-century-long process of globalization that stretches from Klaus Fuchs's espionage to Tahir's nuclear arms bazaar and beyond. The war was a failure in its own terms because weapons of mass destruction were absent in Iraq; the war policy failed because they were present and spreading in Pakistan. For Bush's warning of a mushroom cloud over an American city, though false with respect to Iraq, was indisputably well-founded in regard to Pakistan's nuclear one-stop-shopping: The next warning stemming from this kind of failure could indeed be a mushroom cloud.

The questions that now cry out to be answered are, Why did the United States, standing in the midst of the Pakistani nuclear Wal-Mart, its shelves groaning with, among other things, centrifuge parts, uranium hexafluoride (supplied, we now know, to Libya) and helpful bomb-assembly manuals in a variety of languages, rush out of the premises to vainly ransack the empty warehouse of Iraq? What sort of nonproliferation policy could lead to actions like these? How did the Bush Administration, in the name of protecting the country from nuclear danger, wind up leaving it wide open to nuclear danger?

In answering these questions, it would be reassuring, in a way, to report that the basic facts were discovered only after the war, but the truth is otherwise. In the case of Iraq, it's now abundantly clear that some combination of deception, self-deception and outright fraud (the exact proportions of each are still under investigation) led to the manufacture of a gross and avoidable falsehood. In the months before the war, most of the governments of the world strenuously urged the United States not to go to war on the basis of the flimsy and unconvincing evidence it was offering. In the case of Pakistan, the question of how much the Administration knew before the war has scarcely been asked, yet we know that the most serious breach--the proliferation to North Korea--was reported and publicized before the war.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2438912 - 03/16/04 10:59 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

i too was surprised by the results in spain...and i am quite open to the possibility that the socialists might have staged the bombing IF they knew that it would benefit them..just as the bush junta knew that they would benefit from 9/11...this would be unthinkable for an opposition party in the US..but europe is very different...

nonetheless..what i said before still holds true ..the bush junta did benefit (enormously) from 9/11.. and they will benefit again if theres something similar...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2438976 - 03/16/04 11:20 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

The socialists planning the bombings is complete speculation, and a rather weak one at that.

The problem with dealing with terrorists is that people are putting morals and emotions in it. The terrorists are not emotionless monsters, they are human beings with extreme religious beliefs. They may be willing to do anything, suicide bomb, kill civilians, die, for their beliefs, but they, like you and I, are human beings. They did not attack the US, nor anyone else, for no reason. They had a reason for every attack they have done. Whether or not one agrees with it is to that person, but the terrorists attacks are a direct reaction of what we do to their civilians, except on a much smaller scale. The 9/11 attacks, the Spain attacks, they do draw attention because these attacks never happen in developed countries, but in the War on Iraq we've killed tens of thousands of civilians, and this is the way they fight back. The more wars we fight against the Middle East and other countries, the more we oppress them, the more they will fight us.

The best tactic for dealing with terrorists is prevention, but it's much too late for that. Now, what we do with hundreds of thousands of angry people, I don't know. I didn't cause the mess, and even those who did probably weren't planning the dire consequences it would have. Obviously we can't go into Afghanistan and search every home, cave, nook and cranny, combined with the natural corruption of the US, without pissing off a lot of people, but it's too late for that, and the roar of the angry Americans is that bin Laden must be found. It doesn't matter to them that as soon as we capture bin Laden and bring him to justice, another will immediately replace him, and the terrorists will just move to another land and start again.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Ravus]
    #2439131 - 03/16/04 11:58 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

The terrorists are not emotionless monsters, they are human beings with extreme religious beliefs.

the extent of their religious fanaticism in no way excuses their actions.

They may be willing to do anything, suicide bomb, kill civilians, die, for their beliefs, but they, like you and I, are human beings.

you and i (as far as i know) do not intentionally kill innocent civilians.

They did not attack the US, nor anyone else, for no reason. They had a reason for every attack they have done.

the reasons being? what do you think islamist terrorists are trying to acheive?

Whether or not one agrees with it is to that person, but the terrorists attacks are a direct reaction of what we do to their civilians, except on a much smaller scale.

no they are not.

the stated goal of al-qaeda is the violent overthrow of "non-islamic" governments, the expulsion of non-muslims from muslim nations, the establishment of a worldwide islamic caliphate, and the killing of jews, americans, and all who are allied with them.

from the al-qaeda training manual:

"These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it.

The confrontation that Islam calls for with these godless and apostate regimes, does not know Socratic debates, Platonic ideals nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun."

[in other words: our cause (the establishment of fundamentalist islamist theocracies) has never been, and never will be, persuasive enough to peacefully convince people of its worth, so we must resort to force]

al-qaeda, and other terrorists of their ilk, are intolerant religious fanatics who use illegitimate means for the purpose of acheiving illegitimate ends.

Whether or not one agrees with it is to that person, but the terrorists attacks are a direct reaction of what we do to their civilians, except on a much smaller scale.

when did the US intentionally kill muslim civilians?

The 9/11 attacks, the Spain attacks, they do draw attention because these attacks never happen in developed countries, but in the War on Iraq we've killed tens of thousands of civilians, and this is the way they fight back.

killing american civilians (even infidels) is not a justifiable response to the decisions of america's leaders.

The more wars we fight against the Middle East and other countries, the more we oppress them, the more they will fight us.

and if we leave them alone, and are attacked anyway (and we would be), what shall we do?

al-qaeda is on the offensive.

"These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it."

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Ravus]
    #2439139 - 03/16/04 12:00 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

The socialists planning the bombings is complete speculation, and a rather weak one at that.




hence the use of the large font on the word "IF"...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2439323 - 03/16/04 12:47 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Don't forget though that Iraq was in fact a haven for terrorists, maybe not Al-Qaeda, but there are many other terrorist organizations that used Iraq as a safe haven.

The question is whether the "New Iraq" will be any different than the old Iraq.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2439335 - 03/16/04 12:52 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Don't forget though that Iraq was in fact a haven for terrorists, maybe not Al-Qaeda, but there are many other terrorist organizations that used Iraq as a safe haven.



What do you mean by "haven"? Were there terrorists in Iraq? Sure. Are there terrorists in America? Almost certainly.

Quote:

The question is whether the "New Iraq" will be any different than the old Iraq.



I'm sure that instead of Saddam's secular dictatorship, we'll see the rise of a theocracy. Either that or a U.S.-installed government posing as a "democracy". There's no way we could have a truly democratically elected government there without the Shiite majority taking control.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2439355 - 03/16/04 12:59 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Saddam openly subsidized suicide bombing, giving several thousand dollars to families of suicide bombers.


Openly.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2439391 - 03/16/04 01:07 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

As I said, the terrorists won. Here's an excerpt from:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/spain.invest/index.html


CNN has also obtained an al Qaeda document that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.

The document was published on the main message board that is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers last December.

The strategy spelled out in the document calls for using terrorist attacks to oust Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.

That, in turn, was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.

"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."

That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2439403 - 03/16/04 01:10 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

It actually sickens me to see the blithering neocoms on this website practically cheering the terrorists on.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2439406 - 03/16/04 01:11 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

silversoul7 writes:

There's no way we could have a truly democratically elected government there without the Shiite majority taking control.

But... but... majority rule is good, isn't it?

I mean, look at the people posting here that Al Gore should have been Prez because he won the popular vote. If the majority of Iraqis are Shi'ite, is it not just that the eventual Prez of Iraq should be determined mainly by Shi'ite voters?

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2439426 - 03/16/04 01:17 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Baby_Hitler writes:

It actually sickens me to see the blithering neocoms on this website practically cheering the terrorists on.

Meh. This was a surprise for you?

Neocoms have different values than some of us who post here. They are entitled to outline those values, put forward their opinions, engage in discussions. Heck, even racists are entitled to do the same in this forum.

And you of course are entitled to feel sickened.

That's the beauty of this forum.

pinky


--------------------

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2439441 - 03/16/04 01:20 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
The terrorists are not emotionless monsters, they are human beings with extreme religious beliefs.

the extent of their religious fanaticism in no way excuses their actions.




Agreed.

Quote:

They may be willing to do anything, suicide bomb, kill civilians, die, for their beliefs, but they, like you and I, are human beings.

you and i (as far as i know) do not intentionally kill innocent civilians.




Yes, but we fight for our beliefs. Or most of us, at least. I do not think it gives any excuse to them, but when dealing with them it's helpful to keep it in mind.

Quote:

They did not attack the US, nor anyone else, for no reason. They had a reason for every attack they have done.

the reasons being? what do you think islamist terrorists are trying to acheive?




In what I see, they seem to be wanting the US and other powers to leave the Middle East alone, to govern itself under Islamic rule.

Quote:

Whether or not one agrees with it is to that person, but the terrorists attacks are a direct reaction of what we do to their civilians, except on a much smaller scale.

no they are not.

the stated goal of al-qaeda is the violent overthrow of "non-islamic" governments, the expulsion of non-muslims from muslim nations, the establishment of a worldwide islamic caliphate, and the killing of jews, americans, and all who are allied with them.

from the al-qaeda training manual:

"These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it.

The confrontation that Islam calls for with these godless and apostate regimes, does not know Socratic debates, Platonic ideals nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun."

[in other words: our cause (the establishment of fundamentalist islamist theocracies) has never been, and never will be, persuasive enough to peacefully convince people of its worth, so we must resort to force]

al-qaeda, and other terrorists of their ilk, are intolerant religious fanatics who use illegitimate means for the purpose of acheiving illegitimate ends.




Yes, quite obviously most nations and organizations would like to rule the world, many members of the USA included. The mentality of our way is the best way is extremely prevalent wherever you go. If the terrorists had attacked upon this belief alone, then war would be declared on them completely of their own fault. However, it's not so. Though there have always been terrorists of one sort or another, these newer Islamic stereotypical terrorists have skyrocketed ever since we stole Palestinian land to give to the Jews, oppressed them and constantly warred with them.

Quote:

Whether or not one agrees with it is to that person, but the terrorists attacks are a direct reaction of what we do to their civilians, except on a much smaller scale.

when did the US intentionally kill muslim civilians?




I have no proof of the US intentionally killing Muslim civilians, nor have I ever stated the US has, though it's a large possibility some of the racist troops have like during Vietnam. That does not stop the Muslims from getting angry at the thousands of innocent civilians being killed.

Quote:

Despite the adulation of Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) as a "finely-tuned" or "bulls-eye" war,1 the campaign failed to set a new standard for precision in one important respect: the rate of civilians killed per bomb dropped. In fact, this rate was far higher in the Afghanistan conflict -- perhaps four times higher -- than in the 1999 Balkans war. In absolute terms, too, the civilian death toll in Afghanistan surpassed that incurred by the 1999 NATO bombing campaign over Kosovo and Serbia; indeed, it may have been twice as high. Key among the factors shaping this outcome were (i) the mission objectives of Operation Enduring Freedom, (ii) some of the operational and tactical features of the bombing campaign, and (iii) the mix and technical characteristics of the weapons employed.






Quote:

Another insight on bombing casualties has been provided by Dr. Marc Herold, a University of New Hampshire economics professors, who has compiled a database of hundreds of articles on the war from the world press. This database includes accounts of more than 4,000 civilian deaths from bombing during the period 7 October - 1 January 2002.7

As noted above, the present study uses a lower estimate: between 1000 and 1300 civilians killed in the bombing campaign through 1 January 2002. This estimate relies on a press review that is less extensive than the Herold review, but that applies a more stringent accounting criteria in order to correct for likely reporting bias.8 Regarding an upper-end estimate of casualties: the present study finds it difficult to reconcile a civilian death toll from bombing that is much higher than1300 with the conditions being reported currently by journalists on the ground in Afghanistan -- although this may change when (and if) more comprehensive and systematic surveys are conducted. (See Appendix 2. Resolving Discrepancies in Casualty Accounts.)

The estimate used in the present study is broadly consistent with two other recent reviews: one by Human Rights Watch, which calculated at least 1000 civilian deaths, and one by Reuters news agency, which concluded that perhaps 982 people were killed in 14 incidents.9 It is also broadly consistent with an extrapolation of the estimate made by British intelligence at the end of October.






http://www.comw.org/pda/0201oef.html

And this was written in just January, 2002, when the war first began, where thousands of innocent civilians had already died. Imagine if thousands of innocent American civilians died, and continued to die, for months on end? Any sane person would retaliate.

Quote:


The 9/11 attacks, the Spain attacks, they do draw attention because these attacks never happen in developed countries, but in the War on Iraq we've killed tens of thousands of civilians, and this is the way they fight back.

killing american civilians (even infidels) is not a justifiable response to the decisions of america's leaders.




Agreed, nor is killing any innocent civilians.

Quote:

The more wars we fight against the Middle East and other countries, the more we oppress them, the more they will fight us.

and if we leave them alone, and are attacked anyway (and we would be), what shall we do?

al-qaeda is on the offensive.

"These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it."




I am not saying Al-Quaida is right in their actions, but it must be on the offensive. If it was on the defensive, it obviously wouldn't make a difference because the US tanks would just blow them away.

I do not support terrorists, but neither do I fully support the way the War on Terrorism is fought. It kills countless innocent civilians, and therefore will, in the long run, just breed more terrorists. I was pointing out that terrorists are human beings, and today's Afghani children will be tomorrow's terrorists if we continue this. And because we will, and because countless more civilians will die, even more terrorists will be born, and to them, their attacks will seem perfectly justified.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2439454 - 03/16/04 01:22 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

It actually sickens me to see the blithering neocoms on this website practically cheering the terrorists on.

Don't confuse not supporting Bush in launching internationally condemned and illegal wars of aggression with supporting terrorists. Whatever Donald Rumsfield tells you they arn't, and never will be, the same thing.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2439469 - 03/16/04 01:24 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

You're either with us, or against us. Are you a terrorist, Alex123?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2439475 - 03/16/04 01:25 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Notice how he talks about the war in Iraq and "the war against Islamic terrorism" as if they were one and the same, completely interchangeable. Not even now do these slime have the honesty to admit that ONE (an unnecessary war in Iraq) is diverting attention and resources away from the OTHER (fighting actual terrorist organizations and containing the WMD programs of countries like Pakistan and North Korea).

Thanks for the heads up on the article Echo  :thumbup:

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Ravus]
    #2439484 - 03/16/04 01:27 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

You're either with us, or against us. Are you a terrorist, Alex123?

Looks like it. The definition of a terrorist round these parts appears to be "A person who does not agree with Donald Rumsfield"  :smirk:

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2439506 - 03/16/04 01:35 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
As I said, the terrorists won. Here's an excerpt from:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/spain.invest/index.html


CNN has also obtained an al Qaeda document that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.

The document was published on the main message board that is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers last December.

The strategy spelled out in the document calls for using terrorist attacks to oust Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.

That, in turn, was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.

"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."

That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.

pinky




anyone that believes anything they hear on CNN is an idiot...at least one poster has pointed out that anzar might have been ousted because of his pathetic attempt to blame the ETA..and not because of a populaiton cowering under al-Q..as neocon-owned media consortiums like CNN would have us believe...the message implied is that you either vote for bush/anzar or you vote for al-Q...

EDIT: in which case..im voting for al-Q... :smirk:


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (03/16/04 01:37 PM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2439546 - 03/16/04 01:43 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

If the majority of Iraqis are Shi'ite, is it not just that the eventual Prez of Iraq should be determined mainly by Shi'ite voters?



Just? Relatively speaking, I'd say yes it is. It won't be good for US interests, though, which is why the US will do everything in its power to avoid true majority rule.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2439547 - 03/16/04 01:43 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

anyone that believes anything they hear on CNN is an idiot...

Anything? Hmmm...

CNN reported that Al Gore won the popular vote in the 2000 elections.

CNN reported that no large stockpiles of ready-to-go chem or bio weaponry have yet been discovered within Iraq's borders.

Of course, the head dink at CNN also admitted that CNN's pre-invasion news coverage was biased so as not to piss off Hussein.

pinky


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