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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2445355 - 03/17/04 10:13 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Evolving quotes Lew Rockwell:

Instead, there was a wave of good sense which amounted to the following: let's stop making these people mad by invading and occupying their country.

The attacks in Madrid were carried out by Iraqis? How does Lew know this? Or does he mean they were carried out by Afghanis? If so, same question. The news reports I have read keep mentioning Moroccans. Wouldn't be the first time the media got something wrong, I guess. Or maybe I just missed the news of the Moroccan invasion. I don't have a television after all.

Put that way, the proper response to terrorism is clear: if you are doing something to provoke it, stop!

Well, that is certainly one response. Too bad Osama bin Laden and the boys didn't order the US to withdraw its garrison from the "Holy Places" before his minions hijacked a few planes and flew them into buildings. This whole messy misunderstanding could have been resolved so much more easily.

Americans have somehow come to believe that all acts of terrorism must result in a bigger government.

Really? Which Americans might those be? Was the Taliban not toppled with just a few thousand government employees -- troops already being paid? Perhaps some Americans believe that military and intelligence organs need to grow in size in order to hunt down terrorists. I don't think all do.

This is wholly justified, just as bee stings should teach a person not to agitate them without reason.

The key phrase here is "without reason".

Incredibly, this was a plausible scenario to many Americans, who had no clue that the US was directly responsible for perhaps a million plus deaths of children in Iraq with its sanctions policies (according to the UN ? but say it's half that for the sake of argument; it makes no difference).

This -- as has been noted many times here in the past -- is absolute horseshit. The UN-imposed sanctions were in no way responsible for the deaths of a million Iraqi children, nor even half that amount. And of course, if Hussein had not invaded Kuwait, or even if he had withdrawn on his own, there would have been no sanctions. But let's not blame Hussein for that -- he's not American.

Americans are also famously ignorant of Islamic concerns about Infidels With Guns running around in Mecca.

No more ignorant than you, Lew, if you believe armed Americans were running around Mecca.

In the course of a few months, they managed to convince Americans of the most amazingly implausible lies that one can imagine: they bombed us because they hate our freedom and high sense of morality, the attackers were a part of a well-organized conspiracy directed from the center by one or two people...

No Lew, there was no well-organized conspiracy. Two dozen or so disorganized individuals acting spontaneously, all on their own with no guidance, just decided to enroll in flight schools at the same time by coincidence. They hijacked using identical methods four airplanes within hours of each other by coincidence as well. No direction there at all.

...and the best way to fight back is to invade lots of Muslim countries...

As opposed to asking the governments of the countries harboring the terrorists to arrest them? Let me think... *scratches head*... didn't Bush ask the Taliban to do just that?

pinky


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Ravus]
    #2445453 - 03/17/04 10:30 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Ravus writes:

Again, if the terrorists "won," as you put it, yet it was the right thing to do, I see no problem.

I have no problem with the voters of Spain deciding to kick out one government and elect another. What I have a problem with is them kicking out a government as a kneejerk reaction (and given less than three days between the attack and the election and the understandable emotional turmoil induced by the attack, "kneejerk" is an accurate term to use) to the use of violence directed against civilians.

This matters little to me; the terrorists have only won if you think they've won...

Incorrect. You have it exactly backwards. What matters is not what I think, it's what the terrorists think. And you better believe the terrorists (correctly) think they won.

...and while I see how you could think the terrorists partially won, it doesn't matter.

They didn't "partially" win. They won. And it does matter. If instead of caving, the reaction of the Spaniards had instead been to vote for the PP in overwhelming numbers, and maybe even insisted that the Spanish government increase its presence in Iraq, would you have been as nonchalant about the outcome?

This doesn't really help the terorrists much; aid was pulled out of Iraq, but that would have been done anyway.

Yeah, right. A demonstration that a few carefully placed bombs set off at the right time can cause voters to reverse themselves doesn't help the terrorists at all. You can't possibly be serious.

They have no more control of the government, nor more control of the Spanish people, than they did before.

They don't need to control the Spanish government or the Spanish people. The Spanish Socialists made no secret that one of their top priorities was to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq, which was all the terrorists wanted.

And again, it wasn't just the terrorist attacks that influenced voters, but rather the way the government handled it also...

Excuse me for asking such an obvious question, but if there had been no attack, how could a government mishandle it?

... blaming it ETA when it pretty obviously wasn't.

Actually, in the immediate aftermath of the attack, it was far from "obvious" that the ETA had no involvement. The terrorists may have deliberately designed it that way.

pinky


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2445647 - 03/17/04 11:21 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
The attacks in Madrid were carried out by Iraqis?



The logical assumption would be MUSLIMS.

Quote:

Put that way, the proper response to terrorism is clear: if you are doing something to provoke it, stop!

Well, that is certainly one response.



One VERY SMART response. Too bad so many are blinded by ego generated emotional responses that they cannot recognize it. Please note: ceasing actions which provoke terrorists such as meddling in the affairs of other counties, invading other countries for their natural resources and providing financial and military aid to Isreal DOES NOT rule out hitting back directly at those who share responsibility for terrorist attacks.

Quote:

Americans have somehow come to believe that all acts of terrorism must result in a bigger government.

Really? Which Americans might those be?



Apparently you're not keeping up with current events in the states. Here are a couple of clues, 'Department of Homeland Security' & 'TSA.' Much of the increased spending, increased beaurocracy have received support from many U.S. citizens. I could actually give you a list of people I know as friends, neighbors and professionally who support the massive increase in size of government in response to terrorism with no clue about addressing it's underlying causes.

Quote:

This is wholly justified, just as bee stings should teach a person not to agitate them without reason.

The key phrase here is "without reason".



That's right, he should have stated, "without a Constitutionally justifiable or moral reason." I do recognize that some may support the reason of controlling oil supplies and supporting the state of Isreal, others however do not look upon these as valid on Constitutional or moral grounds.

Quote:

Incredibly, this was a plausible scenario to many Americans, who had no clue that the US was directly responsible for perhaps a million plus deaths of children in Iraq with its sanctions policies (according to the UN ? but say it's half that for the sake of argument; it makes no difference).

This -- as has been noted many times here in the past -- is absolute horseshit. The UN-imposed sanctions were in no way responsible for the deaths of a million Iraqi children, nor even half that amount.



Even if it is 1,000 deaths, the morality is the same. So are you advocating that it is morally justifiable for the U.S. to punish innocent third parties for the actions of a dictator which they live under?

Quote:

Americans are also famously ignorant of Islamic concerns about Infidels With Guns running around in Mecca.

No more ignorant than you, Lew, if you believe armed Americans were running around Mecca.



You're right, troops stationed in Saudi Arabia don't count.

Quote:

In the course of a few months, they managed to convince Americans of the most amazingly implausible lies that one can imagine: they bombed us because they hate our freedom and high sense of morality, the attackers were a part of a well-organized conspiracy directed from the center by one or two people...

No Lew, there was no well-organized conspiracy. Two dozen or so disorganized individuals acting spontaneously, all on their own with no guidance, just decided to enroll in flight schools at the same time by coincidence. They hijacked using identical methods four airplanes within hours of each other by coincidence as well. No direction there at all.



You are ignoring the point of the U.S. propaganda, "they bombed us because they hate our freedom and high sense of morality" which was taken in by the unwashed masses hook, line and sinker. As far as the organizational structure... they are organized in cells, it is decentralized. It is in fact, a structure well known in the intelligence and special operations communities.

Quote:

...and the best way to fight back is to invade lots of Muslim countries...

As opposed to asking the governments of the countries harboring the terrorists to arrest them? Let me think... *scratches head*... didn't Bush ask the Taliban to do just that?



Please provide proof that Iraq's secular government was actively aiding Islamic extremist who want to bring a theocracy to all the Muslim countries. Please provide proof that Iraq's government funded and carried out the attacks of 9/11.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2445842 - 03/18/04 12:28 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Evolving writes:

The logical assumption would be MUSLIMS.

Does Lew not understand that Muslims live in several countries, not all of which have been invaded by Spain?

Apparently you're not keeping up with current events in the states. Here are a couple of clues, 'Department of Homeland Security' & 'TSA.' Much of the increased spending, increased beaurocracy have received support from many U.S. citizens.

While I am not convinced that any huge new department needed to be created in order to act as a clearing house for information gathered by the existing intelligence organizations of the US, foreign-based and domestic, I was under the impression that one of the few legitimate functions of government was to protect its constituents. Is the purpose of the Homeland Security Department and the TSA not to protect US residents?

That's right, he should have stated, "without a Constitutionally justifiable or moral reason." I do recognize that some may support the reason of controlling oil supplies and supporting the state of Isreal, others however do not look upon these as valid on Constitutional or moral grounds.

I don't normally read Lew Rockwell. Am I correct in assuming he was opposed to US troops entering Afghanistan as well?

So are you advocating that it is morally justifiable for the U.S. to punish innocent third parties for the actions of a dictator which they live under?

Nope. I have stated here many, MANY times that the correct course of action would have been to finish off Iraq's Ba'athist regime back in 1991. The UN coalition decided not to, so instead the UN imposed sanctions. The fact remains that sanctions would never have been imposed (or would have been lifted at least a decade sooner than they were) had Hussein not invaded Kuwait in the first place, or if he had withdrawn without being forced to, or even if he had lived up to the ceasefire agreement.

You're right, troops stationed in Saudi Arabia don't count.

Saudi Arabia is not Mecca. If Lew had said "Saudi Arabia" rather than "Mecca", I would not have made my comment.

You are ignoring the point of the U.S. propaganda, "they bombed us because they hate our freedom and high sense of morality" which was taken in by the unwashed masses hook, line and sinker.

Part of their motivation for bombing the US was because the freedom of the West is a threat to their vision of a worldwide Islamic theocracy. And they certainly have a hatred for the US version of morality. They find it an offense before Allah that Americans casually accept partially undressed women, for example. I don't imagine they are big fans of radio shock jocks or Super Bowl halftime shows or Hollywood movies or Hip Hop either.

A lot of Americans find it impossible to believe such visceral disgust might possibly be (in the minds of religious zealots) a compelling reason to bomb civilians. But then, a lot of Americans lack a firm understanding of a lot of things.

Please provide proof that Iraq's secular government was actively aiding Islamic extremist who want to bring a theocracy to all the Muslim countries. Please provide proof that Iraq's government funded and carried out the attacks of 9/11.

When Lew referred to "invading lots of Muslim countries" my assumption was he had more than just Iraq in mind, so I automatically thought of Afghanistan. Presumably Kosovo and Bosnia and Somalia don't count, since the US interventions there prevented more Muslims from being killed. Oh wait! Hussein was killing Muslims, too. Well, that's beside the point, isn't it?

If Lew meant to refer just to Iraq, he might have made it a little clearer.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2445999 - 03/18/04 02:01 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

every moslem i've ever met was corrupt in one way or another,none of them work,they all sell drugs and seem to have a good tax free car stereo speaker installation service running from their welfare homes backyard.
when i was 12 years old i was riding a pushy with two mates and i stopped at a shop to have a look when this pig wog of a moslem walks up to me out of the blue and slaps me across the face,"what was that for you fucking wog" i cried and he said "because your friend hit my wifes arse", i had nothing to do with it and he couldn't catch him so he hits another aussie kid...me!
and you call me a bigot?
actually my moslem neighbour up the roads 10 yr old kid broke his ankle in a soccer game a few months ago and what do they do?
they don't go to a doctor for two weeks,his father (who hates america and teaches his australian born kids to hate them aswell btw) takes his kid for a drive,tells him to put his broken foot under the seat and then he slams on the breaks to re break it and get a compo claim out of it.lol just a small example of moslem corruption
we have moslems trying to close down public access to public pools,so their wives can swim without the sinful eye of the infedel kaffars and you say i'm a bigot?
we have councils who ban the selling of ham sandwiches in electorates overrun by moslems as to not offend them and you say i'm the bigot?
instead of mingling with a few moslem university students(i presume) go to a moslem country wearing the stars and stripes and ask them what they think of you,your throat would be slit before you could open your mouth
better still if you ever come to australia go to bankstown,fairfield or auburn in sydney with your gf and see what a great night you will have there
you will get a true lesson in bigotry and your gf will get a lesson in what not to wear according to islam auburn style,bring a tissue for the spittle

lolol

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2446346 - 03/18/04 07:13 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Dude, do you mind taking your childhood traumas and whining about your Muslim neighbors to OTD or maybe Support Group Central?

Your badly punctuated little rant has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I'm trying to enjoy a very interesting debate going on here between Evolving and pinky.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2446749 - 03/18/04 10:40 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

instead of mingling with a few moslem university students(i presume) go to a moslem country wearing the stars and stripes and ask them what they think of you,your throat would be slit before you could open your mouth



I wouldn't go around America wearing the stars and stripes, so I sure as hell wouldn't do so in a foreign country, when our president has pissed off the whole world. I bet you, however, that they wouldn't mind at all if I wore a shirt with a Canadian flag on it. I'd also like to point out that Muslims could expect the same kind of treatment in certain parts of America as Americans get in Muslim countries. Both groups make the mistake of associating the people of another country with that country's government.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2447434 - 03/18/04 02:03 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

dude, why don't you ******* edited by pinksharkmark

Edited by pinksharkmark (03/18/04 02:10 PM)

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2447445 - 03/18/04 02:06 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

dude, why don't you suck my cock you fucking fairy

Calm down lamb.

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2447473 - 03/18/04 02:11 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

yes alex123 i apologise to all but that was a fairy swipe at me,i didn't go off-topic,just defending myself,i was lost for words and puncuation :shake:

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2447478 - 03/18/04 02:12 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Go to the first page of this forum. Read the post titled "Political Forum Rules". Follow them.

You get one warning before you are referred to the administrators for banning. This is that warning.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2447494 - 03/18/04 02:14 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

wiil the antagonizer be getting a warning too?
or are personal insults and off topic remarks with a touch of browntonguing to mods tolerated by a select few in here?

Edited by lamblancer (03/18/04 02:17 PM)

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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2447545 - 03/18/04 02:28 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Edame writes:

Do I think the bombings had an influence on some people's voting decisions? Yes.




pinksharkmark writes:
Then, as I said, the goal of the terrorists was achieved. They won this round.

The goal of the terrorists may coincide with the election result, but that doesn't mean that they caused it.

To go over what we've been discussing, the terrorist attack may or may not have influenced some (but not all) people's voting decisions in the elections. How this influenced each person we cannot know, some may have decided they were going to vote long ago, some may have been convinced at the last minute. Some may have known the candidate they were going to vote for in advance, some may not have known, some may have voted out of anger or protest. Again, who did this and who didn't we can't know unless we ask everyone who voted and they all tell us the truth.

Other factors may include people like the film director Pedro Almod?var, who is currently accused of spreading a rumour that Aznar's party was planning a coup after the bombing:

The Oscar-winning film director Pedro Almod?var was yesterday pitched into the centre of a row about Spain's dramatic general election, as the defeated People's party said it would sue him for slander.

His supposed crime was to give wings to one of the many rumours that raced around Spain on election night at the weekend - passed on by emails and mobile phone text messages - that the People's party of the prime minister, Jos? Mar?a Aznar, had prepared a coup attempt.


Did these rumours influence some people's voting decisions? I think if we accept that the bombings themselves did, then we have to accept this too. Did Pedro Almod?var bring down the Spanish government? Could he confidently claim 'victory' for himself? I don't think so.

Another influence was undoubtedly the ruling party's insistance that ETA was to blame. According to another Guardian article, Aznar's party tried to push a resolution blaming ETA through the UN Security Council just hours after the attacks:

The UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, said yesterday that the outgoing Spanish prime minister, Jos? Mar?a Aznar, had paid for backing the Iraq war and blaming last week's terrorist attacks in Madrid on Eta.

His comments came after Spain was forced to explain to the UN why, within hours of the attacks and with no culprit identified, it had pushed a motion blaming Eta through the security council.


Did this dishonest political maneuver topple the government? Again, I doubt it, even though it probably influenced some people in some way (but we can't tell in what way, after all, plenty of people still did vote for the PP).

But the evidence is irrefutable that a significant number of Spaniards had their votes influenced by the attack.

I agree (but which way were they influenced, and how many?). Many were also influenced by many other factors (such as those above) that came both before, and after the attack. I don't think you give the Spanish much credit if you ignore the other factors and imply that the bombing alone influenced their votes and thus handed the terrorists a 'victory'. They weren't forced at gunpoint to go out and vote.

The Spanish people voted less than three days after the attack. Many Spanish people have been quoted as saying the attacks influenced their votes. It is sophistry to pretend that there was no connection.

I'm not pretending there was no connection, but to turn that connection into the sole cause of the upset is where I can't agree with you.

To use a crude analogy, the terrorists are not playing the same 'game' as the rest of us (democracy). The Spanish people excercising their freedom to vote and make their own decisions, in record numbers, looks like a 'win' for democracy to me, regardless of which party comes to (or stays in) power. The terrorists are playing a 'game' of intimidation, death and destruction. Unfortunately they acheived part of that hideous goal, but they had no part in the democratic election process, no candidates, no votes, only bombs. When they use tactics like that and play outside of the system, their claims of 'victory' ring pretty hollow to me.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Edame]
    #2447904 - 03/18/04 03:45 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Edame writes:

The goal of the terrorists may coincide with the election result, but that doesn't mean that they caused it.

Gee, of course not! All those Spaniards quoted as saying that they weren't even going to vote at all before the attack occurred were lying through their teeth.

Look, if you have convinced yourself that the attack didn't influence the outcome of the election, nothing I (or any Spanish voters for that matter) have to say will change your mind. You think I (and just about every political commentator in the entire world) am mistaken. I know you are mistaken.

As far as the future of the world is concerned, it matters not a whit what I know or what you think. What matters is what the terrorists think. And the terrorists don't just think that their actions influenced an election in a Western democracy, they know it. They will try this tactic again. Bet on it.

Other factors may include people like the film director Pedro Almod?var, who is currently accused of spreading a rumour that Aznar's party was planning a coup after the bombing:

No election happens in a vacuum. Of course other things influenced the way people voted. After all, the vote wasn't unanimously in favor of the Socialists. Some people didn't alter the voting decision after the attack. But some undeniably, by their own statements, did. I know that, you know that, the terrorists know that.

Another influence was undoubtedly the ruling party's insistance that ETA was to blame.

And as I said, perhaps the terrorists planned it that way. They're not total idiots, you know. It's no big trick to lay a false trail. The false trail inevitably is discredited... given time. But the attack was three days before the elections. That's not a lot of time to conclusively say one way or the other, is it?

Besides, to repeat myself yet again, if there had been no attack, there would have been no blame of the ETA. What's so hard to comprehend about that?

The UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, said yesterday that the outgoing Spanish prime minister, Jos? Mar?a Aznar, had paid for backing the Iraq war and blaming last week's terrorist attacks in Madrid on Eta.

Whatever would the world do without Kofi Annan and the UN?

Did this dishonest political maneuver topple the government?

"Dishonest"? Have you actually read any of the first reports coming out? There were definitely indications suggesting it was an ETA attack -- the choice of explosives, for one. "Mistaken", okay. Dishonest? Nope.

And again -- no attack, no misplaced blame.

They weren't forced at gunpoint to go out and vote.

No, of course not. Guns are scary. Bombs are not.

To use a crude analogy, the terrorists are not playing the same 'game' as the rest of us (democracy).

Gee.... ya figure?

The Spanish people excercising their freedom to vote and make their own decisions, in record numbers, looks like a 'win' for democracy to me, regardless of which party comes to (or stays in) power.

A win for democracy? I for once am rendered speechless.

You will recall that Hussein's last "victory" also involved a record turnout of voters. Vote the way the murderers want or be killed.

The terrorists are playing a 'game' of intimidation, death and destruction. Unfortunately they acheived part of that hideous goal, but they had no part in the democratic election process, no candidates, no votes, only bombs.

No part? I am completely shocked into silence here. I've started this sentence about six times, only to go back and redo it, and redo it again. I have no words to express the profound disconnect between reality and your perception of it.

When they use tactics like that and play outside of the system, their claims of 'victory' ring pretty hollow to me.

And I'm sure the terrorists are sobbing themselves softly to sleep at night because Edame considers their victory a hollow one.

They won, they know they won, and they will attempt this same tactic again.

pinky


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2448045 - 03/18/04 04:07 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Your patience is mind boggling.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
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Last seen: 20 years, 2 days
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2448139 - 03/18/04 04:25 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
One VERY SMART response. Too bad so many are blinded by ego generated emotional responses that they cannot recognize it. Please note: ceasing actions which provoke terrorists such as meddling in the affairs of other counties, invading other countries for their natural resources and providing financial and military aid to Isreal DOES NOT rule out hitting back directly at those who share responsibility for terrorist attacks.




So, the jews should have just stopped owning business, having hooked noses, practising their religion, and "controlling the banks"? Geez, the holocaust is THEIR fault! I've always thought it was stupid to blame the cold-hearted killers that did it, it's CLEARLY the fault of those that didn't give in to the demands of the cold-hearted killers. I thank you for clarifying that, now lets start demanding repirations from the Jews for having to pay for the gas we used to kill them, it was their fault, after all!

Ugh, i'm not even reading the rest of this crap.

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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2448253 - 03/18/04 04:58 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

The goal of the terrorists may coincide with the election result, but that doesn't mean that they caused it.

Gee, of course not! All those Spaniards quoted as saying that they weren't even going to vote at all before the attack occurred were lying through their teeth.

The difference between you and I is that I'm not implying that those Spaniards quoted somehow represent the whole of Spain, prove that the terrorists 'caused' the election result, or are even indicative of anything but their own opinion.

Look, if you have convinced yourself that the attack didn't influence the outcome of the election, nothing I (or any Spanish voters for that matter) have to say will change your mind. You think I (and just about every political commentator in the entire world) am mistaken. I know you are mistaken.

I haven't conviced myself of anything, you are the one who claimed that the terrorists 'won' and that the whole election was one big knee-jerk response to the attacks. I was offering an alternative viewpoint. At no point have I claimed that my view is the correct one. You might know I'm 'mistaken', I'm saying I don't know, and that I think your reasoning is flawed. That "just about every political commentator in the entire world" (!) supposedly shares your view doesn't mean a lot to me, there are other viewpoints, I'm interested in hearing them.

As far as the future of the world is concerned, it matters not a whit what I know or what you think. What matters is what the terrorists think. And the terrorists don't just think that their actions influenced an election in a Western democracy, they know it. They will try this tactic again. Bet on it.

I'm sure they do 'know' it, and I'm sure they will try again. I'm sure they also 'know' that Allah is the One True God too, doesn't make the claim itself any more valid because they fervently believe it.

But the attack was three days before the elections. That's not a lot of time to conclusively say one way or the other, is it?

I'm not the one trying to make conclusive statements, I'm asking questions and offering opinions.

They weren't forced at gunpoint to go out and vote.

No, of course not. Guns are scary. Bombs are not.

What exactly is your point here? Are you implying that the bomibings somehow forced people to go and vote against their will?

The Spanish people excercising their freedom to vote and make their own decisions, in record numbers, looks like a 'win' for democracy to me, regardless of which party comes to (or stays in) power.

A win for democracy? I for once am rendered speechless.

I'm not sure why. A record turnout, and a nation voted to use the democratic process to change their elected government. That's what democracy's about (and why I consider it a 'win').

You will recall that Hussein's last "victory" also involved a record turnout of voters. Vote the way the murderers want or be killed.

I don''t see a connection, Hussein's 'victory' (a simple choice of 'yes' or 'no') was widely dismissed around the world. You were trying to imply that Saddam's 'election' was somehow valid or similar to the Spanish one? Do you think of Spain as a dictatorship pretending to be a democracy?

The terrorists are playing a 'game' of intimidation, death and destruction. Unfortunately they acheived part of that hideous goal, but they had no part in the democratic election process, no candidates, no votes, only bombs.

No part? I am completely shocked into silence here. I've started this sentence about six times, only to go back and redo it, and redo it again. I have no words to express the profound disconnect between reality and your perception of it.

How many terrorists were manning voting stations, or voting, or putting candidates up for election? Bombing and killing people wasn't part of the democratic process last time I checked. Do I think the terrorists influenced people? Yes (as I keep saying). Do I think they had a part in the democratic election process? I don't, I think their means of persuasion fall outside of this.

I'm comforted that your omnipotent and impartial view of 'reality' is available to correct my flawed perception of it.

And I'm sure the terrorists are sobbing themselves softly to sleep at night because Edame considers their victory a hollow one.


Like I care, it's just my opinion and I'm well aware of that fact. Just as I'm aware that your opinion isn't fact either, even if you state it as such repeatedly.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

Edited by Edame (03/18/04 04:59 PM)

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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2448351 - 03/18/04 05:28 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:They won, they know they won, and they will attempt this same tactic again. pinky




That is true. They know they won. But you forget to remember that they knew it all the time. That is the reason why they decided to be so brutal. That provokes human empathy. Because, when you see what does it mean 200 people dead and 1500 wounded, than these numbers are not numbers any more. But much more than that.

All these figures of people accidentally murdered by occupying forces in Iraq, are not numbers any more. But souls who died because of Bush taking him right for doing illegitimate operation. And when you do not have legitimacy to do something, because of its injusticeness, than humans need for justice start working very strongly.

Yes this is terrorism wining. As it seems to be the only way to wake up sleepy catle who did not mind to have the war in their name. I am really glad for seening it. Because if the reaction was opposite, that would mean that oligarchy could manipulate with these people as long as it wants to. Meaning till the Big Brother scenario.

Yes. This is the great victory for terrorism. This is the great victory for democracy.

Oh. I just realised something. this has nothing to do with terrorism. But for Al Quaeda, who is actually terroristic organisation. Though, American war machine is either terroristic organisation and it did not win this time. Using simple division technicke, what it reminds is this was the win for democracy ONLY.

Edited by Crobih (03/18/04 05:32 PM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2519341 - 04/02/04 03:07 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2519765 - 04/02/04 05:47 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Well, they managed to catch this one, didn't they? Devoting more resources on defense rather than offense appears to help.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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