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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Socialists take Spain
    #2433392 - 03/15/04 12:06 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Fantastic to see a major player in Bush's "coalition of the lying bastards" thrown out on their arse  :yesnod:


Furious voters oust Spanish government

Socialists gain power as Aznar is punished for bloodshed

Giles Tremlett in Madrid
Monday March 15, 2004
The Guardian

Spanish voters punished prime minister Jos? Mar?a Aznar's People's party for the bloodshed of last week's Madrid terrorist attacks yesterday, throwing it out of government in an angry reaction to his handling of the aftermath.
In one of the most dramatic elections of the post-Franco era, voters turned on the ruling party, convinced that the multiple bomb attack on Madrid's packed commuter trains had been carried out by al-Qaida and with a growing sense that the People's party had tried to hide the truth.

With intelligence agencies around the globe trying to identify a man who, in a videotape found in Madrid, claimed responsibility for the attacks for al-Qaida and with three Moroccan suspects in police custody, most voters believed the Spanish capital had suffered its equivalent of the September 11 attacks in the United States.

Socialist leader Jos? Luis Rodr?guez Zapatero swept to a surprise victory that was a blow to the Bush administration. He has pledged to withdraw Spain's 1,300 troops from Iraq if the UN does not take control by June 30 when Washington plans to hand power back to Iraqis.

Protesters accused the government of trying to hide the fact that violent Islamism was to blame and demanded explanations for Mr Aznar's backing of the Iraq war against the will of some 90% of Spaniards.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1169404,00.html

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InvisibleXlea321
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Posts: 9,134
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2433403 - 03/15/04 12:09 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

It just gets better  :smile:

Spain's Socialists won a sensational victory in yesterday's general elections, in a vote that confounded the polls and inflicted a huge punishment on the Popular Party government for supporting the war in Iraq.

Voters believed that Jos? Maria Aznar's support for President George Bush had put Spain in the front line as a target for Islamist radicals, and directly produced the devastating terrorist attacks in Madrid on Thursday. Additional discontent was caused by the strong suspicion that Mr Aznar's government was hiding information pointing to al-Qaida's possible involvement, through fear that it would rebound against it in the poll.

One of the main planks of Mr Zapatero's platform was his promise to bring home the 1,300 Spanish troops now serving with the coalition in Iraq. This is a position supported by all the other parties in opposition to the Popular Party.

Last night's vote is a crushing defeat for the combative and remote political style of Mr Aznar, who had hoped to hand over power seamlessly to his handpicked successor. Mr Aznar tried to wrench Spain away from its loyalty to Europe and pledge it instead to the Atlantic alliance that took it to war, and ? in the eyes of the voters ? to Thursday's tragedy.

The lesson will not be lost on Tony Blair. Mr Blair has lost his most reliable pro-Bush European ally. Now isolated in Europe but for the mercurial Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, Mr Blair must be contemplating the prospect that his absolute majority may, like Mr Aznar's, melt away.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=501295

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2433485 - 03/15/04 12:38 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

alex...im a bit curious as to why..in your opinion..the bombing had the opposite effect in spain than it would have had here...and if anyone else has such an opinion..pls share it with the audience...thx...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2433498 - 03/15/04 12:42 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Maybe their education system is better over there?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2434054 - 03/15/04 07:44 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

:tongue2:


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2434140 - 03/15/04 08:44 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

I can only hope that Blair suffers a similar voter backlash. To quote Spain's incoming Prime Minister:

"The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster."

"Wars such as those which have occurred in Iraq only allow hatred, violence and terror to proliferate,"


If only we had a Prime Minister cabable of such thoughts.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2434443 - 03/15/04 10:36 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

So...


I guess terrorism is an effective tool when used against Spain.

They must be geniuses.


No wait, I mean stupid pussies. Why would a terrorist act sway a vote in favor of giving terrorists what they want?

I mean, I could understand why they would vote the existing party out of office if they were unhappy with their decisions prior to the bombings, but these articles seem to suggest that the election results were a surprise, and the result of backlash from the terrorist attacks.


My question is: How do the terrorists feel anout the election results? Did the terrorists "win" this election?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2434448 - 03/15/04 10:37 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

I guess it was because 90% of the population were against the war anyway. Being taken to war by some lunatic is bad enough, when it results in hundreds of people being blown up it must be very hard to take.

I'm guessing the Brits are going to take the next attack. Only trouble here is Blair is even furthur to the right than the neocons - so there's no alternative  :frown:

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Edame]
    #2434463 - 03/15/04 10:40 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

I can only hope that Blair suffers a similar voter backlash

Who do we vote for tho Edame!! Blair's supposed to be the socialist party but he's furthur right than the tories!

Lib-dems?

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2434504 - 03/15/04 10:48 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

No wait, I mean stupid pussies. Why would a terrorist act sway a vote in favor of giving terrorists what they want?

You're confusing invading Iraq with combatting terrorism. They arn't, and never have been, anything to do with each other.

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2434543 - 03/15/04 10:57 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

You're confusing invading Iraq with combatting terrorism. They arn't, and never have been, anything to do with each other.

i don't think he is, and that isn't the issue. whether the iraq war had anything to do with combatting terrorism has no bearing on babyhitler's assertions.

they could have attacked in response to spain's liberal drug policy. if the people then elected a leader pledging to be tough on drugs... you get the idea.

the actual reasons (or excuses, if you prefer) for the iraq war are unrelated to what baby hitler is saying.

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2434555 - 03/15/04 10:58 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

I was thinking Lib Dems. There's no way I could ever vote tory, and Labour are just as bad. Lib Dems don't have the experience, but at this point I'm willing to give them a try. I'd rather take my chances with the untested Lib Dems than stick with Tony's attempts to turn us into Airstrip One.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2434770 - 03/15/04 11:51 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

If terrorist demands coincide with doing what is right, you should do what is right. If terrorist demands go against doing what is right you should do what is right. To avoid the right path merely because is might coincide with terrorist demands does not make your choice(s) the right one(s).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2434815 - 03/15/04 12:07 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

I think what Spanish voters were MOST angry about was that the Aznar government kept trying to point the finger at the ETA Basque separatists when it was becoming clear as day that it was al-Qaeda:

Nobody sent a warning (something ETA always does)
ETA denied responsibility (something they've never done before)
An al-Qaeda cell claimed responsibility
There was physical evidence linking the bombing to al-Qaeda
There was no physical evidence linking it to the ETA

This was the state of affairs when Spanish voters went to the polls, yet the Aznar government, obviously knowing what the political fallout would be, kept trying to insist that ETA was the prime suspect.

Spinning a criminal investigation into the worst terror attack your country has ever seen for political gain is pretty sickening, and Aznar's party deserved to lose even if for that reason alone. I guess Aznar didn't learn the lesson well enough from his mentor about how to exploit terror for political fun and profit .

At least Spanish voters were smart enough to see through the crap.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2434823 - 03/15/04 12:09 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

No wait, I mean stupid pussies. Why would a terrorist act sway a vote in favor of giving terrorists what they want?



If the terrorists get what they want(and like Evolving said, that should only be when what they want is what is right), then they won't have any more reason to fight you, and therefore your population is a little safer than before(of course, this should also come hand-in-hand with increasing your defenses against a future attack).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2434963 - 03/15/04 12:43 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

  If terrorist demands coincide with doing what is right, you should do what is right. If terrorist demands go against doing what is right you should do what is right. To avoid the right path merely because is might coincide with terrorist demands does not make your choice(s) the right one(s).





once again you have relieved me of the need to post.  thanks!
:thumbup:

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2436547 - 03/15/04 07:42 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

That's true, but these articles suggest that the terrorist attacks swayed the voters into voting in a way that would be more pleasing to the terrorists.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2436556 - 03/15/04 07:44 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

What do they want?


Is it right?


I'm not saying people should vote against their conscience just to spite the terrorists, I'm just wondering why the terrorist attacks would change anyone's opinion of what is right?

Why did the attack sway any votes at all?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2436590 - 03/15/04 07:51 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Why did the attack sway any votes at all?



Maybe the fact that their government didn't protect them well enough. Or maybe the fact that their government's actions abroad made them more of a target for attack.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2436594 - 03/15/04 07:52 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Evolving writes:

If terrorist demands coincide with doing what is right, you should do what is right. If terrorist demands go against doing what is right you should do what is right. To avoid the right path merely because is might coincide with terrorist demands does not make your choice(s) the right one(s).

Absolutely.

However, all pre-election polls prior to the attack pointed to a comfortable win by Aznar's party. This would seem to indicate that a whole hell of a lot of people hastily switched their idea of what was "right" in a very short period of time. Post-election quotations from many voters (many of whom had not even intended to vote at all prior to the attack) make it clear that a significant number voted they way they did purely because of the attack.

Coincidence?

Uh huh.

pinky


--------------------

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2436616 - 03/15/04 07:56 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Spain: The other France.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2436701 - 03/15/04 08:15 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

It's my understanding that opinion polls showed that the majority of Spanish citizens were against their government's actions in Iraq before the bombings in Madrid.

Say I have a friend who is staying in my house. He knows that I don't want any trouble from his asshole friends who are always starting shit wherever they go, yet he goes out with them and gets in a gang fight. Next thing I know, his opponents decide to do a drive by at my house and my daughter gets hit by a bullet. The next day I kick his ass out.

Coincidence?

Uh huh.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2436867 - 03/15/04 08:47 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Evolving writes:

It's my understanding that opinion polls showed that the majority of Spanish citizens were against their government's actions in Iraq before the bombings in Madrid.

It was my understanding as well. That doesn't explain the radical shift in voter intent post-attack, however. If the attack had not occurred, many would not have voted at all, and many others would have voted for Aznar's party -- according to all pre-attack polls. The attack:

a) changed the perceptions of many people who had previously thought they knew what the "right thing" to do (vote for Aznar's party) was

and/or

b) impelled people who already knew what the "right thing" to do (vote against Aznar's party) was but who had decided not to bother doing it; to go ahead and do it.

Say I have a friend who is staying in my house. He knows that I don't want any trouble from his asshole friends who are always starting shit wherever they go, yet he goes out with them and gets in a gang fight. Next thing I know, his opponents decide to do a drive by at my house and my daughter gets hit by a bullet. The next day I kick his ass out.

Would you have kicked him out if the driveby hadn't occurred? If not, why not?

pinky


--------------------

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Offlinevalour
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2436878 - 03/15/04 08:48 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Did you folks not read the point about people being outraged that the previous government tried to lie to them about it?


--------------------
"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2436899 - 03/15/04 08:53 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Would you have kicked him out if the driveby hadn't occurred? If not, why not?



Yep. Of course I wouldn't have invited somebody else in who would be raiding my liquor cabinet and giving my booze to all his derelict friends.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: valour]
    #2436904 - 03/15/04 08:54 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

I sure did.

Did you not read some of the interviews with Spanish voters who stated outright that they voted out of appeasement?

Are you saying that if the government had said from the beginning that it was Islamists behind the attack, Aznar's party would have won?

pinky


--------------------

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2436923 - 03/15/04 08:58 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Evolving writes:

Of course I wouldn't have invited somebody else in who would be raiding my liquor cabinet and giving my booze to all his derelict friends.

Well, you're a damn poor excuse for a Socialist, then!

pinky


--------------------

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Offlinevalour
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2436956 - 03/15/04 09:03 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Nah - well, of course I can't ~say~ what would have happened ;-)

I'm sure that was one of those "straws that broke the camel's back" sort of things.
Just like how I was initially for the War in Iraq, but then it came to light that we were blatantly lied to multiple times. (to avoid tangent of Iraq War, I'll state: "In my point of view, you may see it differently")

Then again, I can't say how I'd react if people I knew were killed in a terrorist attack and I had a way to prevent it happening again.
This might make me a "pussy" (not your words, I know). I can live with that.
After 9-11, I was like many Americans and all gung-ho ready to kill whoever was responsible.
The position:
-They didn't want to government to work the way it did.
-The way the government worked provoked the attacks.*
-that was enough for people to change their minds - conspiracy theorists may go nuts over the fact that the attacks took place so soon before the elections.

*Do note that if it's al-Qaida, I place the ~blame~ fully on al-Qaida.


--------------------
"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2437034 - 03/15/04 09:18 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

However, all pre-election polls prior to the attack pointed to a comfortable win by Aznar's party.




This one from the Guardian on March 5th (quoting a government commissioned poll) doesn't seem to indicate a comfortable win at all:

Support for the Spanish People's party government is ebbing away as concern about terrorism and separatism dominates the general election campaign, according to opinion polls published yesterday.

Nine days before polling, its lead over the opposition Socialists has fallen to 5-7 points.

There are doubts whether its prime ministerial candidate Mariano Rajoy will keep the absolute majority won four years ago by Jos? Mar?a Aznar, who is standing down.

The government's pollster gave him an absolute majority of one seat, and two media polls said he would fall short of a majority. Two months ago some polls gave him a lead of almost 11 points.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Edame]
    #2437131 - 03/15/04 09:42 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Nine days before the election, it led by 5-7 points.

On election day, it trailed by, what, 10 or more points? I really don't have the precise numbers at my fingers, but judging from the number of seats each party won, it has to be at least 10 points. That's a swing of at least 15 points in nine days.

It beggars the imagination to believe that big a swing would have occurred in that short a time absent the attack. Again, especially when one is presented with the comments of Spanish voters. To claim the attack had no effect on the outcome of the election is absurd. (Not that I am saying this is your claim, Edame.)

The terrorists won this round. Bummer.

pinky


--------------------

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2437140 - 03/15/04 09:46 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

I think the reason for the big upset was because the attack made the people realize that their government's decision to go into Iraq was not only misguided, but dangerous.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2437285 - 03/15/04 10:27 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

So as I said, the terrorists won this round.

An incredibly dangerous precedent has been set.

pinky


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2437302 - 03/15/04 10:31 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
So as I said, the terrorists won this round.



I guess it depends on how you look at it. I'm sick of people talking about how if we do such-and-such, then the terrorists win. Not everything's a contest to see who wins and who loses. We shouldn't be worried about whether they win or lose, but whether we do. If the terrorists winning means being safer, then so be it.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2437374 - 03/15/04 10:48 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2437389 - 03/15/04 10:55 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2437422 - 03/15/04 11:08 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Not everything's a contest to see who wins and who loses.

Earth, meet ss7. Ss7, meet Earth. Exactly how many terrorists do you think would say the same thing? That would be like none.



Why does it matter what they say? This is about us, not them. We don't need to sink to their level.

Quote:

We shouldn't be worried about whether they win or lose, but whether we do. If the terrorists winning means being safer, then so be it.

Peace at any price? The thugs and muggers would love you, so would the communists. Better Red than dead, eh?



I never said we should have peace at any price. But we're talking about throwing out the leader who led you into a war you opposed which led to your country being attacked. I hardly think that's a very steep price to pay.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2437440 - 03/15/04 11:12 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

The terrorists won this round. Bummer.

Do you seriously think that a victory for the government that left open the gaping security holes allowing the terrorists to strike so successfully would have been a defeat for the terrorists? Terrorists only win when they succeed in killing innocent civilians. The Aznar government handed them that victory before the election.

Here is yet another article about how the Aznar government misled not ony its own citizens but the UN and other EU nations as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/16/international/europe/16SPIN.html

The Aznar government's actions after the terror attack are nothing less than obstruction of justice, which, when committed by an individual, is a serious crime.

By lying to its European allies about the true nature of the attacks (and therefore about the true extent of al-Qaeda's reach in Europe), the Spanish government recklessly endangered the security of other Europeans.

Leaving its policies on the Iraq war completely out of the equation for the moment, the defeat of a government like that is not a victory for terrorists, it's a victory for sanity and responsible law enforcement.

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2437487 - 03/15/04 11:32 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2437501 - 03/15/04 11:40 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Why does it matter what they say? This is about us, not them. We don't need to sink to their level.

I guess. However, if a person threatens to use or uses violence against me or someone who is under my protection I will defend myself or the person(s) that are under my protection. I find such thinking idealistic but highly impractical, that's all.



I'm all for defense. I just don't see what that has to do with an election like this.

Quote:

I never said we should have peace at any price. But we're talking about throwing out the leader who led you into a war you opposed which led to your country being attacked. I hardly think that's a very steep price to pay.

I don't think that's all we are talking about. I suppose, under the right interpretation, we could blame their leaders for the attack instead of the attackers. For the record I didn't support the war against Iraq. I am still undecided whether we should have gone to war.

Pinky is correct here whether the whole world disagrees with him

A very dangerous precedent has been set.



What precedent? Voting ineffective leaders out? The Horror!

Quote:

So, tell me, how will you feel when we are attacked again in order to defeat Bush? Will those lives be worth it to you?



Of course not. I would much rather have Bush lose the election without any bloodshed(at least no more than he's already caused). But if terrorists were to strike again, I would hope that the American people would see it as a wakeup call that our leaders are ineffective in combating terrorism, and that they need to go. Sadly, however, in this country, such an incident would most likely only lend Bush even more support. Somehow Americans seem to interpret massive intelligence failures as great leadership.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2437517 - 03/15/04 11:45 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2437533 - 03/15/04 11:53 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

So, tell me, how will you feel when we are attacked again in order to defeat Bush? Will those lives be worth it to you?

Let's see, the last time we were attacked Bush's approval rating jumped from around 50% to around 90%.

Tell me this: if there is an attack in late October and Bush, who had been trailing in the polls, actually gets re-elected because of it, whose victory is that?

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2437541 - 03/15/04 11:55 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Yes, well I cannot help you to see what you cannot understand.

However, I am interested in your solutions to terrorism.



I'm no military strategist. I don't pretend to have the answers here. All I know is that if a leader is claiming to fight terrorism but the terrorist threat is just becoming greater, they're probably doing something wrong, or not doing something they should be. Now, I in no way believe that we should simply be pushovers, but we shouldn't be afraid to examine ourselves, and look into the question "Why do they hate us?" Now, some of the answers to that question may be pretty stupid, but some other answers I believe are fairly reasonable, and I think it would be foolish not to change our behavior in those ways simply because we fear that that would mean "letting the terrorists win." If our actions only lead to more hatred towards us, and more terrorism directed against us, then everybody loses.

Quote:

I, like you, want the US to wake up. We actually did wake up after 9/11, for about 3 days. Then, we rolled over, pulled the covers over our head, and went back to sleep.



I think 9/11 could have presented an opportunity for us to wake up, but instead it made everyone all too eager to give up their civil liberties in exchange for a sense of security.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2437554 - 03/15/04 11:58 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Do you seriously think that a victory for the government that left open the gaping security holes allowing the terrorists to strike so successfully would have been a defeat for the terrorists?

Amen.

The neocons seem to be utterly confused and missing the point entirely. Invading Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with combatting al-qaeda.

Spain have said they will withdraw troops from Iraq, not stop fighting terrorism. If a fraction of the resources poured into invading Iraq had been spent combatting terrorism it's a good bet Madrid would never have happened.

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2437566 - 03/16/04 12:01 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2437575 - 03/16/04 12:03 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Tell me this: if there is an attack in late October and Bush, who had been trailing in the polls, actually gets re-elected because of it, whose victory is that?




given how much bush has had to gain from 9/11..which has led to speculation that the junta deliberately allowed 9/11 to happen precisely for that reason..there is every reason to believe that the junta would do it all over again..if for whatever reason they dont manage to pull OBL out of the hat...


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2437582 - 03/16/04 12:05 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2437595 - 03/16/04 12:08 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

The neocons seem to be utterly confused and missing the point entirely. Invading Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with combatting al-qaeda.

The long-term goals of al-Qaeda obviously have nothing to do with protecting a secularist like Saddam. The long-term goals of al-Qaeda (according to their own admission) are:

Divide the West
Unite Islam
Bring about rapidly escalating violent confrontation between a divided West and a united Islam

If those are your goals then Bush is your friggin' wet dream.

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2437600 - 03/16/04 12:09 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

This may sound frightening to some but what if we were to establish a World Government that would smash the bejesus out of any terrorist that tried to terrorize anyone? What do you think of that solution?



It might help in some ways, but it's my belief that to really solve problems, you have to get at the root of them. I would certainly support bringing any international terrorist before a world court, but that's just prosecuting crimes that have already happened. My big concern is winning over the hearts and minds of the people in this region so that we can prevent a new crop of terrorists from being raised. If we can show the Middle East that we're not just some big, overbearing bully, but actually care about them and their grievances, then I imagine far fewer of them would join groups like Al Queda, and such groups would not enjoy the same widespread support that they now have. Just a thought.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2437615 - 03/16/04 12:13 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2437624 - 03/16/04 12:16 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

He, being the more cynical between us, thought that the Bush campaign might use the ploy if it worked for them.

I can't really see how they would fail to try at least to turn it to their advantage.

I mean, what would they say? "Eh, sorry folks, looks like our security efforts have failed. Our bad. Maybe you actually ought to consider voting for the other guy."

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2437638 - 03/16/04 12:19 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2437657 - 03/16/04 12:24 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
No, I think that's a wonderful thought. It is very idealistic though. Just try to convince a Christian fundamentalist of something they do not want to believe and I think you will see why that approach is probably futile.



It's not so much about changing the minds of the truly radical fundamentalists. They're beyond help. I think if we showed a more compassionate, understanding attitude towards the Middle East, then the extremists might have less credibility then.

Quote:

I also just thought that if we cut our dependence on oil we might actually leave them alone. That's another solution! I like that one even better because I am about as green as you can get.



I absolutely agree with that. So long as we're dependent on Middle Eastern oil, it will continue to influence our foreign policy. We need to look more deeply into alternative, renewable sources of energy, and gradually phase out fossil fuels as our main energy source. It's either that, or wait 'til the supply starts to run low, and prices become too high to be practical. Then we'd have to switch to alternative fuels much more abruptly.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2437686 - 03/16/04 12:32 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

You should introduce your stockbroker to Learyfan.

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2437929 - 03/16/04 01:47 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2437938 - 03/16/04 01:50 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2437979 - 03/16/04 02:34 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Tell me this: if there is an attack in late October and Bush, who had been trailing in the polls, actually gets re-elected because of it, whose victory is that?




given how much bush has had to gain from 9/11..which has led to speculation that the junta deliberately allowed 9/11 to happen precisely for that reason..there is every reason to believe that the junta would do it all over again..if for whatever reason they dont manage to pull OBL out of the hat...







Soooooo... the socialists were behind the bombings in Spain then?








:yesnod:


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2437985 - 03/16/04 02:42 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

There are some things that Al-Qaeda would like that I also would support, like cutting all aid to Israel and demanding that they turn over the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the palestinians and the creation of a completely independant Palestinian state.

I'm not really sure how they feel about us buying oil from the middle east, but I'd rather we didn't buy any at all ever again.


But any oppressive regimes I have no problem in destroying.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2438501 - 03/16/04 08:17 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Baby_Hitler writes:

Soooooo... the socialists were behind the bombings in Spain then?

Damn! Beat me to it.

They must have been. The bombings benefited the Socialists, so that right there is proof they were behind it.

pinky


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2438688 - 03/16/04 09:51 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

LOL, proof in the minds of liberals anyway.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2438699 - 03/16/04 09:55 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

The long-term goals of al-Qaeda obviously have nothing to do with protecting a secularist like Saddam.

Odd how the same people who believed the fairytale of WMD are the same ones who believe invading Iraq was about stopping terrorists.

If those are your goals then Bush is your friggin' wet dream.

I hear ya'  :yesnod:

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2438777 - 03/16/04 10:25 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Odd how the same people who believed the fairytale of WMD are the same ones who believe invading Iraq was about stopping terrorists.

Funny you should mention that, because here's what I read just a little while ago:

"But the British foreign minister, Jack Straw, said turning away from Iraq and changing strategies in the campaign against terrorism would do more harm than good. "Nobody, nobody, nobody should believe that somehow we can opt out of the war against Islamic terrorism," he said. "The idea that, somehow, there is some exemption certificate for this war against terrorism is utter nonsense."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/16/international/europe/16SPAI.html

Notice how he talks about the war in Iraq and "the war against Islamic terrorism" as if they were one and the same, completely interchangeable. Not even now do these slime have the honesty to admit that ONE (an unnecessary war in Iraq) is diverting attention and resources away from the OTHER (fighting actual terrorist organizations and containing the WMD programs of countries like Pakistan and North Korea).

Here's an interesting article that addresses that very issue:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040329&s=schell

Here's a key passage:

Proliferation, however, is not, as the President seemed to think, just a rogue state or two seeking weapons of mass destruction; it is the entire half-century-long process of globalization that stretches from Klaus Fuchs's espionage to Tahir's nuclear arms bazaar and beyond. The war was a failure in its own terms because weapons of mass destruction were absent in Iraq; the war policy failed because they were present and spreading in Pakistan. For Bush's warning of a mushroom cloud over an American city, though false with respect to Iraq, was indisputably well-founded in regard to Pakistan's nuclear one-stop-shopping: The next warning stemming from this kind of failure could indeed be a mushroom cloud.

The questions that now cry out to be answered are, Why did the United States, standing in the midst of the Pakistani nuclear Wal-Mart, its shelves groaning with, among other things, centrifuge parts, uranium hexafluoride (supplied, we now know, to Libya) and helpful bomb-assembly manuals in a variety of languages, rush out of the premises to vainly ransack the empty warehouse of Iraq? What sort of nonproliferation policy could lead to actions like these? How did the Bush Administration, in the name of protecting the country from nuclear danger, wind up leaving it wide open to nuclear danger?

In answering these questions, it would be reassuring, in a way, to report that the basic facts were discovered only after the war, but the truth is otherwise. In the case of Iraq, it's now abundantly clear that some combination of deception, self-deception and outright fraud (the exact proportions of each are still under investigation) led to the manufacture of a gross and avoidable falsehood. In the months before the war, most of the governments of the world strenuously urged the United States not to go to war on the basis of the flimsy and unconvincing evidence it was offering. In the case of Pakistan, the question of how much the Administration knew before the war has scarcely been asked, yet we know that the most serious breach--the proliferation to North Korea--was reported and publicized before the war.

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2438912 - 03/16/04 10:59 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

i too was surprised by the results in spain...and i am quite open to the possibility that the socialists might have staged the bombing IF they knew that it would benefit them..just as the bush junta knew that they would benefit from 9/11...this would be unthinkable for an opposition party in the US..but europe is very different...

nonetheless..what i said before still holds true ..the bush junta did benefit (enormously) from 9/11.. and they will benefit again if theres something similar...


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2438976 - 03/16/04 11:20 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

The socialists planning the bombings is complete speculation, and a rather weak one at that.

The problem with dealing with terrorists is that people are putting morals and emotions in it. The terrorists are not emotionless monsters, they are human beings with extreme religious beliefs. They may be willing to do anything, suicide bomb, kill civilians, die, for their beliefs, but they, like you and I, are human beings. They did not attack the US, nor anyone else, for no reason. They had a reason for every attack they have done. Whether or not one agrees with it is to that person, but the terrorists attacks are a direct reaction of what we do to their civilians, except on a much smaller scale. The 9/11 attacks, the Spain attacks, they do draw attention because these attacks never happen in developed countries, but in the War on Iraq we've killed tens of thousands of civilians, and this is the way they fight back. The more wars we fight against the Middle East and other countries, the more we oppress them, the more they will fight us.

The best tactic for dealing with terrorists is prevention, but it's much too late for that. Now, what we do with hundreds of thousands of angry people, I don't know. I didn't cause the mess, and even those who did probably weren't planning the dire consequences it would have. Obviously we can't go into Afghanistan and search every home, cave, nook and cranny, combined with the natural corruption of the US, without pissing off a lot of people, but it's too late for that, and the roar of the angry Americans is that bin Laden must be found. It doesn't matter to them that as soon as we capture bin Laden and bring him to justice, another will immediately replace him, and the terrorists will just move to another land and start again.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Ravus]
    #2439131 - 03/16/04 11:58 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

The terrorists are not emotionless monsters, they are human beings with extreme religious beliefs.

the extent of their religious fanaticism in no way excuses their actions.

They may be willing to do anything, suicide bomb, kill civilians, die, for their beliefs, but they, like you and I, are human beings.

you and i (as far as i know) do not intentionally kill innocent civilians.

They did not attack the US, nor anyone else, for no reason. They had a reason for every attack they have done.

the reasons being? what do you think islamist terrorists are trying to acheive?

Whether or not one agrees with it is to that person, but the terrorists attacks are a direct reaction of what we do to their civilians, except on a much smaller scale.

no they are not.

the stated goal of al-qaeda is the violent overthrow of "non-islamic" governments, the expulsion of non-muslims from muslim nations, the establishment of a worldwide islamic caliphate, and the killing of jews, americans, and all who are allied with them.

from the al-qaeda training manual:

"These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it.

The confrontation that Islam calls for with these godless and apostate regimes, does not know Socratic debates, Platonic ideals nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun."

[in other words: our cause (the establishment of fundamentalist islamist theocracies) has never been, and never will be, persuasive enough to peacefully convince people of its worth, so we must resort to force]

al-qaeda, and other terrorists of their ilk, are intolerant religious fanatics who use illegitimate means for the purpose of acheiving illegitimate ends.

Whether or not one agrees with it is to that person, but the terrorists attacks are a direct reaction of what we do to their civilians, except on a much smaller scale.

when did the US intentionally kill muslim civilians?

The 9/11 attacks, the Spain attacks, they do draw attention because these attacks never happen in developed countries, but in the War on Iraq we've killed tens of thousands of civilians, and this is the way they fight back.

killing american civilians (even infidels) is not a justifiable response to the decisions of america's leaders.

The more wars we fight against the Middle East and other countries, the more we oppress them, the more they will fight us.

and if we leave them alone, and are attacked anyway (and we would be), what shall we do?

al-qaeda is on the offensive.

"These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it."

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Ravus]
    #2439139 - 03/16/04 12:00 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

The socialists planning the bombings is complete speculation, and a rather weak one at that.




hence the use of the large font on the word "IF"...


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2439323 - 03/16/04 12:47 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Don't forget though that Iraq was in fact a haven for terrorists, maybe not Al-Qaeda, but there are many other terrorist organizations that used Iraq as a safe haven.

The question is whether the "New Iraq" will be any different than the old Iraq.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2439335 - 03/16/04 12:52 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Don't forget though that Iraq was in fact a haven for terrorists, maybe not Al-Qaeda, but there are many other terrorist organizations that used Iraq as a safe haven.



What do you mean by "haven"? Were there terrorists in Iraq? Sure. Are there terrorists in America? Almost certainly.

Quote:

The question is whether the "New Iraq" will be any different than the old Iraq.



I'm sure that instead of Saddam's secular dictatorship, we'll see the rise of a theocracy. Either that or a U.S.-installed government posing as a "democracy". There's no way we could have a truly democratically elected government there without the Shiite majority taking control.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2439355 - 03/16/04 12:59 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Saddam openly subsidized suicide bombing, giving several thousand dollars to families of suicide bombers.


Openly.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2439391 - 03/16/04 01:07 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

As I said, the terrorists won. Here's an excerpt from:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/spain.invest/index.html


CNN has also obtained an al Qaeda document that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.

The document was published on the main message board that is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers last December.

The strategy spelled out in the document calls for using terrorist attacks to oust Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.

That, in turn, was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.

"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."

That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.

pinky


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2439403 - 03/16/04 01:10 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

It actually sickens me to see the blithering neocoms on this website practically cheering the terrorists on.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2439406 - 03/16/04 01:11 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

silversoul7 writes:

There's no way we could have a truly democratically elected government there without the Shiite majority taking control.

But... but... majority rule is good, isn't it?

I mean, look at the people posting here that Al Gore should have been Prez because he won the popular vote. If the majority of Iraqis are Shi'ite, is it not just that the eventual Prez of Iraq should be determined mainly by Shi'ite voters?

pinky


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2439426 - 03/16/04 01:17 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Baby_Hitler writes:

It actually sickens me to see the blithering neocoms on this website practically cheering the terrorists on.

Meh. This was a surprise for you?

Neocoms have different values than some of us who post here. They are entitled to outline those values, put forward their opinions, engage in discussions. Heck, even racists are entitled to do the same in this forum.

And you of course are entitled to feel sickened.

That's the beauty of this forum.

pinky


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2439441 - 03/16/04 01:20 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
The terrorists are not emotionless monsters, they are human beings with extreme religious beliefs.

the extent of their religious fanaticism in no way excuses their actions.




Agreed.

Quote:

They may be willing to do anything, suicide bomb, kill civilians, die, for their beliefs, but they, like you and I, are human beings.

you and i (as far as i know) do not intentionally kill innocent civilians.




Yes, but we fight for our beliefs. Or most of us, at least. I do not think it gives any excuse to them, but when dealing with them it's helpful to keep it in mind.

Quote:

They did not attack the US, nor anyone else, for no reason. They had a reason for every attack they have done.

the reasons being? what do you think islamist terrorists are trying to acheive?




In what I see, they seem to be wanting the US and other powers to leave the Middle East alone, to govern itself under Islamic rule.

Quote:

Whether or not one agrees with it is to that person, but the terrorists attacks are a direct reaction of what we do to their civilians, except on a much smaller scale.

no they are not.

the stated goal of al-qaeda is the violent overthrow of "non-islamic" governments, the expulsion of non-muslims from muslim nations, the establishment of a worldwide islamic caliphate, and the killing of jews, americans, and all who are allied with them.

from the al-qaeda training manual:

"These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it.

The confrontation that Islam calls for with these godless and apostate regimes, does not know Socratic debates, Platonic ideals nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun."

[in other words: our cause (the establishment of fundamentalist islamist theocracies) has never been, and never will be, persuasive enough to peacefully convince people of its worth, so we must resort to force]

al-qaeda, and other terrorists of their ilk, are intolerant religious fanatics who use illegitimate means for the purpose of acheiving illegitimate ends.




Yes, quite obviously most nations and organizations would like to rule the world, many members of the USA included. The mentality of our way is the best way is extremely prevalent wherever you go. If the terrorists had attacked upon this belief alone, then war would be declared on them completely of their own fault. However, it's not so. Though there have always been terrorists of one sort or another, these newer Islamic stereotypical terrorists have skyrocketed ever since we stole Palestinian land to give to the Jews, oppressed them and constantly warred with them.

Quote:

Whether or not one agrees with it is to that person, but the terrorists attacks are a direct reaction of what we do to their civilians, except on a much smaller scale.

when did the US intentionally kill muslim civilians?




I have no proof of the US intentionally killing Muslim civilians, nor have I ever stated the US has, though it's a large possibility some of the racist troops have like during Vietnam. That does not stop the Muslims from getting angry at the thousands of innocent civilians being killed.

Quote:

Despite the adulation of Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) as a "finely-tuned" or "bulls-eye" war,1 the campaign failed to set a new standard for precision in one important respect: the rate of civilians killed per bomb dropped. In fact, this rate was far higher in the Afghanistan conflict -- perhaps four times higher -- than in the 1999 Balkans war. In absolute terms, too, the civilian death toll in Afghanistan surpassed that incurred by the 1999 NATO bombing campaign over Kosovo and Serbia; indeed, it may have been twice as high. Key among the factors shaping this outcome were (i) the mission objectives of Operation Enduring Freedom, (ii) some of the operational and tactical features of the bombing campaign, and (iii) the mix and technical characteristics of the weapons employed.






Quote:

Another insight on bombing casualties has been provided by Dr. Marc Herold, a University of New Hampshire economics professors, who has compiled a database of hundreds of articles on the war from the world press. This database includes accounts of more than 4,000 civilian deaths from bombing during the period 7 October - 1 January 2002.7

As noted above, the present study uses a lower estimate: between 1000 and 1300 civilians killed in the bombing campaign through 1 January 2002. This estimate relies on a press review that is less extensive than the Herold review, but that applies a more stringent accounting criteria in order to correct for likely reporting bias.8 Regarding an upper-end estimate of casualties: the present study finds it difficult to reconcile a civilian death toll from bombing that is much higher than1300 with the conditions being reported currently by journalists on the ground in Afghanistan -- although this may change when (and if) more comprehensive and systematic surveys are conducted. (See Appendix 2. Resolving Discrepancies in Casualty Accounts.)

The estimate used in the present study is broadly consistent with two other recent reviews: one by Human Rights Watch, which calculated at least 1000 civilian deaths, and one by Reuters news agency, which concluded that perhaps 982 people were killed in 14 incidents.9 It is also broadly consistent with an extrapolation of the estimate made by British intelligence at the end of October.






http://www.comw.org/pda/0201oef.html

And this was written in just January, 2002, when the war first began, where thousands of innocent civilians had already died. Imagine if thousands of innocent American civilians died, and continued to die, for months on end? Any sane person would retaliate.

Quote:


The 9/11 attacks, the Spain attacks, they do draw attention because these attacks never happen in developed countries, but in the War on Iraq we've killed tens of thousands of civilians, and this is the way they fight back.

killing american civilians (even infidels) is not a justifiable response to the decisions of america's leaders.




Agreed, nor is killing any innocent civilians.

Quote:

The more wars we fight against the Middle East and other countries, the more we oppress them, the more they will fight us.

and if we leave them alone, and are attacked anyway (and we would be), what shall we do?

al-qaeda is on the offensive.

"These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it."




I am not saying Al-Quaida is right in their actions, but it must be on the offensive. If it was on the defensive, it obviously wouldn't make a difference because the US tanks would just blow them away.

I do not support terrorists, but neither do I fully support the way the War on Terrorism is fought. It kills countless innocent civilians, and therefore will, in the long run, just breed more terrorists. I was pointing out that terrorists are human beings, and today's Afghani children will be tomorrow's terrorists if we continue this. And because we will, and because countless more civilians will die, even more terrorists will be born, and to them, their attacks will seem perfectly justified.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2439454 - 03/16/04 01:22 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

It actually sickens me to see the blithering neocoms on this website practically cheering the terrorists on.

Don't confuse not supporting Bush in launching internationally condemned and illegal wars of aggression with supporting terrorists. Whatever Donald Rumsfield tells you they arn't, and never will be, the same thing.

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2439469 - 03/16/04 01:24 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

You're either with us, or against us. Are you a terrorist, Alex123?


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2439475 - 03/16/04 01:25 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Notice how he talks about the war in Iraq and "the war against Islamic terrorism" as if they were one and the same, completely interchangeable. Not even now do these slime have the honesty to admit that ONE (an unnecessary war in Iraq) is diverting attention and resources away from the OTHER (fighting actual terrorist organizations and containing the WMD programs of countries like Pakistan and North Korea).

Thanks for the heads up on the article Echo  :thumbup:

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Ravus]
    #2439484 - 03/16/04 01:27 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

You're either with us, or against us. Are you a terrorist, Alex123?

Looks like it. The definition of a terrorist round these parts appears to be "A person who does not agree with Donald Rumsfield"  :smirk:

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2439506 - 03/16/04 01:35 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
As I said, the terrorists won. Here's an excerpt from:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/spain.invest/index.html


CNN has also obtained an al Qaeda document that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.

The document was published on the main message board that is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers last December.

The strategy spelled out in the document calls for using terrorist attacks to oust Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.

That, in turn, was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.

"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."

That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.

pinky




anyone that believes anything they hear on CNN is an idiot...at least one poster has pointed out that anzar might have been ousted because of his pathetic attempt to blame the ETA..and not because of a populaiton cowering under al-Q..as neocon-owned media consortiums like CNN would have us believe...the message implied is that you either vote for bush/anzar or you vote for al-Q...

EDIT: in which case..im voting for al-Q... :smirk:


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (03/16/04 01:37 PM)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2439546 - 03/16/04 01:43 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

If the majority of Iraqis are Shi'ite, is it not just that the eventual Prez of Iraq should be determined mainly by Shi'ite voters?



Just? Relatively speaking, I'd say yes it is. It won't be good for US interests, though, which is why the US will do everything in its power to avoid true majority rule.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2439547 - 03/16/04 01:43 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

anyone that believes anything they hear on CNN is an idiot...

Anything? Hmmm...

CNN reported that Al Gore won the popular vote in the 2000 elections.

CNN reported that no large stockpiles of ready-to-go chem or bio weaponry have yet been discovered within Iraq's borders.

Of course, the head dink at CNN also admitted that CNN's pre-invasion news coverage was biased so as not to piss off Hussein.

pinky


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2439556 - 03/16/04 01:45 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
As I said, the terrorists won. Here's an excerpt from:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/spain.invest/index.html


CNN has also obtained an al Qaeda document that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.

The document was published on the main message board that is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers last December.

The strategy spelled out in the document calls for using terrorist attacks to oust Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.

That, in turn, was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.

"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."

That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.

pinky



Even if the terrorists won, that doesn't necessarily mean that Spain lost.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2439560 - 03/16/04 01:46 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

silversoul7 writes:

It won't be good for US interests, though, which is why the US will do everything in its power to avoid true majority rule.

It will, will it? I'm bookmarking this post. Let's come back to it in a year or so.

pinky


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2439567 - 03/16/04 01:49 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Even if the terrorists won, that doesn't necessarily mean that Spain lost.

Give Zapatero time to undo all the good Aznar has done for Spain's economy (and as a Socialist, he will undo it), then let's revisit that statement.

pinky


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2439574 - 03/16/04 01:51 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Annapurna1 writes:

anyone that believes anything they hear on CNN is an idiot...

Anything? Hmmm...

CNN reported that Al Gore won the popular vote in the 2000 elections.

CNN reported that no large stockpiles of ready-to-go chem or bio weaponry have yet been discovered within Iraq's borders.

Of course, the head dink at CNN also admitted that CNN's pre-invasion news coverage was biased so as not to piss off Hussein.

pinky




i never watch CNN..so whether or not i agree with any of the above is irrelevant..since i still didnt hear it on CNN... :grin:


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Ravus]
    #2439593 - 03/16/04 01:56 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

In what I see, they seem to be wanting the US and other powers to leave the Middle East alone, to govern itself under Islamic rule.

if that were all, it would be a lot easier to deal with them. however it is not the case. they want to forcefully overthrow existing governments and replace them with fundamentalist islamic theocracies everywhere in the world. "non-believers" are not to be tolerated. the tactics they use to further their goals are insidious. westerm democracies, whether they try to assist the people these terrorists are attacking or not, wil become targets for the holy war.

i'll again quote the al-qaeda training manual:

"These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it.

The confrontation that Islam calls for with these godless and apostate regimes, does not know Socratic debates, Platonic ideals nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun."

Yes, quite obviously most nations and organizations would like to rule the world, many members of the USA included. The mentality of our way is the best way is extremely prevalent wherever you go. If the terrorists had attacked upon this belief alone, then war would be declared on them completely of their own fault.

yet this is precisely and explicitly defined as al-qaeda's intended focus. so how do we deal with them? they are the aggressors. simply leaving them alone will not prevent them from attacking us.

And this was written in just January, 2002, when the war first began, where thousands of innocent civilians had already died. Imagine if thousands of innocent American civilians died, and continued to die, for months on end? Any sane person would retaliate.

not if we were previously under the rule of a thug like saddam hussein. refer to the recent nationwide poll of iraq. if one was inclined to retaliate, the proper way would be to attack the aggressors, not innocent civilians.

I am not saying Al-Quaida is right in their actions, but it must be on the offensive. If it was on the defensive, it obviously wouldn't make a difference because the US tanks would just blow them away.

what i mean to say here is that al qaeda is the aggressor. their stated goal is the overthrow of non-islamic governments around the world. it is not to pressure the west to adopt muslim-friendly foreign policy. simply withdrawing support for israel and pulling our troops out of muslim areas of the world will not stop them from attacking us and our allies.

I do not support terrorists, but neither do I fully support the way the War on Terrorism is fought. It kills countless innocent civilians, and therefore will, in the long run, just breed more terrorists. I was pointing out that terrorists are human beings, and today's Afghani children will be tomorrow's terrorists if we continue this.

what do you think should be done when there are foreign governments which harbor terrorists who attack the united states?

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2439596 - 03/16/04 01:57 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

I don't really pay any attention to what Rumsfeld says.

I haven't even heard his voice in a couple of months I don't think.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2439854 - 03/16/04 02:50 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

if that were all, it would be a lot easier to deal with them...whether they try to assist the people these terrorists are attacking or not, wil become targets for the holy war.


Lets not get hysterical about this mush. They are a tiny terrorist group - just like dozens of other terrorist groups. Dealing with them is not akin to War of the Worlds. Try and keep things in perspective.

i'll again quote the al-qaeda training manual

"Training manuals" often have more to do with propaganda than reality. Take them with a pinch of salt.

so how do we deal with them? they are the aggressors. simply leaving them alone will not prevent them from attacking us.

Terrorists need support from many places to operate effectively. You make positive attempts to secure a Palestinian state, that cuts off a vast avenue of potential support and recruits. You stop invading countries in the middle east. That cuts off another vast avenue of potential support and recruits. You offer the hand of friendship to the poor in Arab countries - not just the savage dictators you help prop up who rob the countries blind. You build hospitals instead of dropping bombs. That cuts off another vast area of potential support and recruits.

Instead of having 10,000 people who can say "The americans blew the arms off my kid and killed my entire family". You have 50,000 people saying "The americans helped us get fresh drinking water".

The idea is to behave in such a manner that you reduce support for terrorists, not increase it.

their stated goal is the overthrow of non-islamic governments around the world.

But every terrorist group since the dawn of time has had some ludicrous "stated goal" like that. That's propaganda 101. It's no use saying your stated goal is to "have a bit of cheese for supper tonight". You say you'll overthrow every government on earth - it sounds cool. It's the kind of thing heavy metal bands say.

refer to the recent nationwide poll of iraq.

The Iraq rapidly sinking into civil war..

simply withdrawing support for israel and pulling our troops out of muslim areas of the world will not stop them from attacking us and our allies.

It might not stop Osama Bin laden agreed. But it will sure as stop hundreds of others who might have joined after seeing the Palestinians/Iraqis being slaughtered on a daily basis.

Maybe you'll never stop there being guys like Osama Bin laden. Just like we can't stop serial killers. What you don't do is let yourself be conned into invading countries in oil rich areas of the globe by transparent idiots like Donald Rumsfield as a "cure" for terrorism.

what do you think should be done when there are foreign governments which harbor terrorists who attack the united states?

The IRA launched terrorist attacks on the UK for decades with heavy US funding via NORAID. Should the UK have declared war on the US? Or bombed Eire? Would that have been reasonable behaviour?

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2440070 - 03/16/04 03:47 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Nine days before the election, it led by 5-7 points.

On election day, it trailed by, what, 10 or more points? I really don't have the precise numbers at my fingers, but judging from the number of seats each party won, it has to be at least 10 points. That's a swing of at least 15 points in nine days.


At the end of the day it's all speculation, polls are not always accurate. What I was trying to illustrate was that not all polls were indicating a comfortable win for Aznar's party.

The terrorists won this round.

I disagree. According to the Bush rhetoric, terrorists hate the West's 'freedom' and everything we stand for, and will stop at nothing until they have killed us all or have us under their rule. Quite how a record 70% of the electorate excercising their democratic freedom (that the terrorists hate) to vote out a deceiving pro-war government constitutes a 'win' for the terrorists I'm not sure. By the same logic some are using, I can just as easily argue that the terrorists 'won' on 9/11 when they provided the Bush administration with an opportunity to launch 2 wars of aggression and to start stripping citizens of their rights.

Just as I think it's a logical fallacy for some to say that Nader 'caused' Gore to lose the election, I also think it's false to assume that the bombings 'caused' the election result. Do I think the bombings had an influence on some people's voting decisions? Yes. Correlation doesn't always equal causation though.

The Spanish people could have stayed home in fear after the attacks (an attack on a crowded public transport system could be intended to have this effect) and not voted at all. Instead they went out and voted in record numbers, despite the possibility of further attacks. To me it looks like more of a "fuck you" to the terrorists than a 'win' for them.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

Edited by Edame (03/16/04 03:54 PM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2440080 - 03/16/04 03:50 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

The socialists planning the bombings is complete speculation, and a rather weak one at that.




hence the use of the large font on the word "IF"...




correction ..the fact that bush was still able to use the socialist victory to his own advantage by calling it a "victory for the terrorists"..means that it was actually a win-win for bush...i think we can now exclude any possibility that the socialist were complicit...and again..as the primary beneficiary..bush becomes all the more suspect...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2440253 - 03/16/04 05:07 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Alex mainly said everything I was going to. Terrorism is like AIDS, the best way to deal with it is to prevent it. There will always be terrorists, but if you show the Middle Eastern populace that you're not the stereotypical oil-hungry blood-thirsty Westerners terrorists make us out to be, and instead help them with food and medicial aid instead of killing innocent civilians, it's almost an assurance the number of terrorists will go down, and people will resist them more rather than view them as matyrs and heroes. When a government harbors terrorists, the best way to deal with it is diplomacy, as in give them a month deadline to stop all supporting of terrorists, then cut off all aid to that country if it passes the deadline. If it continues to defy the US, then the situation can go from there, where war and the killing of innocent civilians is the last option rather than the first thing that comes to mind, as with Bush.

Not only that, but sending many inexperienced soldiers with faulty missiles that shoot friendly planes into the countries isn't the only military way to deal with terrorists and capturing them. It would be a lot more precise, end with a lot less deaths and create much less of an uprising if we instead sent trained Special Forces into Afghanistan to search for bin Laden with a following of experienced soldiers, collecting intelligence from those who have opposed the terrorists along the way. Instead, we have only made situations worse.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2442023 - 03/17/04 02:49 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said: They may be willing to do anything, suicide bomb, kill civilians, die, for their beliefs, but they, like you and I, are human beings.

you and i (as far as i know) do not intentionally kill innocent civilians.



Actually you are. You care the responsibility of an average american citizen for the occupation of Iraq. This is how it turns back on you. This is why diffusion of resposnsibility is not a good thing, either you might think it is fine with you. But that same diffusion hits back those innocent people.

Where they responsible for attacks? Not enough to die. But you are responsible for their death. We all are. We all who did not stand against the Bush or our corrupted government with will that will stop messing with our lives. This is how the karma works. Every move hits us back. That is the reason why we need to be a fair. Because it is our best interest.

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InvisibleSemilanceata
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Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 841
Loc: República Federal Íbera
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Edame]
    #2442413 - 03/17/04 07:48 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

I don?t think terrorists hate our way of life, as long as it doesn?t affect them. What they don?t want is their countries to be ocuppied by "yankies" all the fucking time. So, who started all this shit? Terrorism exist because of what "empty head" Bush says or does it exist because we (the west) did attack them first? I mean, we (the west) started attacking them a long time ago with the crusades, or don?t you remember?
Do you really think they are going to attack the west just because we eat burgers, watch porn, drink like motherfuckers and eat pigs?
I think you americans should do just like we spaniards did: get all the fascists out of the government before it?s too late.
One more thing, socialists in Spain are like the democrats in USA, don?t mistake it with Lenin, Stalin and all those fascists assholes. Economically talking, nothing will change at all.


--------------------
Sr_Setahongo

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Semilanceata]
    #2442660 - 03/17/04 09:03 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

get a fucking clue!!!
the moslems have been invading and attacking other nations since 634 and probably earlier.
the "holy jihad" began in 636!
yes they invaded europe and left a trail of death and destruction.
they tried to invade france in 742 in poitiers but were driven away.
in 750 they conquered north over india and to asia minor and all the way to the borders of china.
try a history lesson before spouting off about "the crusades"
moslems started it all!!

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InvisibleSemilanceata
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Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 841
Loc: República Federal Íbera
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2442775 - 03/17/04 09:57 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Yes man, and before that there was a roman empire. Were romans moslims? or maybe we can talk about greeks or egyptians if you wish.
Who is the aggressor and who is the victim, that?s what I?m talking about, and believe me it?s difficult to get the answer.
You said: "Moslims started all" that sure is a funny statement, you should tell Bush to include it in his speechs  :grin: :grin: :grin:


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Sr_Setahongo

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Semilanceata]
    #2442786 - 03/17/04 10:00 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Semilanceata said:
Yes man, and before that there was a roman empire.



31 BC to 476 AD ? Roman Empire
43 to 410 ? Britain part of Roman Empire
330 ? Constantinople founded
711 ? Moslems invade Spain  :thumbdown:
732 ? Moslems defeated at Tours, France
768-814 ? Charlemagne (crowned 800)
962-1806 ? Holy Roman Empire (Central Europe)
1054 ? Schism of West and East
1066 ? Norman invasion of British Isles
1095 ? First Crusade

from here


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Semilanceata]
    #2442833 - 03/17/04 10:20 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Semilanceata said:
One more thing, socialists in Spain are like the democrats in USA, don?t mistake it with Lenin, Stalin and all those fascists assholes. Economically talking, nothing will change at all.


Do not start celebrating to soon. The one whom you've choosed is not able to fight the terrorism due to the reason that his political background is more or less based in the same structures as your ex pres. was.

This means he wont be able to make a radical cut you and the whole world needs right now.

Edited by Crobih (03/17/04 10:21 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Semilanceata]
    #2442857 - 03/17/04 10:29 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

your the one who said "remember the crusades" as if western culture and christianty started it all against moslems,
i merely corrected you
the romans weren't christian at the time of moslem invasions,they fed christians to lions "remember"?
the moslems attacked the dwindling roman empire when they were weak and decided to leave the jews and christians alone for the time being cause they too had suffered under the romans.
then they headed towards europe and china,its all in the history books,the age of the saracens

alex123 says"they only say they want to conquer the world cause it sounds cool but they don't mean it"
yeah bullshit,
when their clerics and leaders say it the moslem people listen,otherwise we wouldnt have suicide bombers would we?
they need a blessing from an islamic cleric to die in jihad so they can go straight to heaven without being punished for their sins,others wise its just plain old suicide,
so do you think these suicidal murderers who are probably recruited from mental asylems(oh thats right they don't have those do they)have been blessed by their islamic peers and clerics?
according to islam they had better be!

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2442875 - 03/17/04 10:35 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

thanks evolving,some people just hate the truth :thumbup:

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InvisibleEdame
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Registered: 01/14/03
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Semilanceata]
    #2443082 - 03/17/04 11:39 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

I don?t think terrorists hate our way of life, as long as it doesn?t affect them.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I actually believe in Bush's dogma about terrorists, I don't for a second (I share a similar view to Alex and Ravus). Plenty of people do though, and many of them seem to think that because the Spanish have rejected Bush's way of doing things that they must be letting the terrorists win. If you're not with Bush, you're with the terrorists and so on....


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Posts: 9,134
Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2443144 - 03/17/04 11:55 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

alex123 says"they only say they want to conquer the world cause it sounds cool but they don't mean it"

No, you misunderstand. I've no doubt there are some people who believe it. Just like there are some people who believe God tells them to kill prostitutes, or that Iraq had WMD.

The point is that as long as you arn't mounting illegal wars of aggression against arab countries, butchering thousands of innocents and propping up Israel, guys like Osama don't generate the support to be much of a threat. Every time the Brits went in heavy into Northern Ireland you could guarantee the numbers of people being recruited by the IRA would skyrocket.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2443377 - 03/17/04 12:55 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

lamblancer said:
get a fucking clue!!!
the moslems have been invading and attacking other nations since 634 and probably earlier.
the "holy jihad" began in 636!



Please educate yourself. This "holy jihad" has not been continuous. The modern-day conflicts between us and the Middle-East have their roots in World War I, after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Quote:

yes they invaded europe and left a trail of death and destruction.



Just like Europe did to them during the crusades?

Yes, Muslims tried to spread the faith, just like the Christians did. And yes, like the Christians, they sometimes used violent means to do this. For most of Muslim history, however, they've lived in relative peace with the people of Europe. The problems in the Middle East today stem mainly from the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the European colonialism which followed.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2443410 - 03/17/04 01:02 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

I think you can trace the problems between the middle east and west back to the time when the Rothschilds started financing European Jews to move to present day Israel against the wishes of the Ottoman Empire.


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Always Smi2le

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: GazzBut]
    #2443441 - 03/17/04 01:11 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I think you can trace the problems between the middle east and west back to the time when the Rothschilds started financing European Jews to move to present day Israel against the wishes of the Ottoman Empire.



Actually, if I remember right, the Ottoman Empire didn't mind at first. The opposition grew as the Jews started coming in greater numbers, and then after WWII, all these Holocaust survivors started coming over in huge numbers until they outnumbered the Arabs in the area. Even so, I think the Balfour Declaration was one of the biggest contributors to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2443449 - 03/17/04 01:14 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

The Ottoman empire were not against the Jews returning they just requested that they return to land that was set aside for them and not Jerusalem.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Edame]
    #2443567 - 03/17/04 01:41 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Edame writes:

Quite how a record 70% of the electorate excercising their democratic freedom (that the terrorists hate) to vote out a deceiving pro-war government constitutes a 'win' for the terrorists I'm not sure.

You wish it explained how it constitutes a win? Fair enough.

The fact that the voter turnout was a "record" might give some indication on how to answer. Pre-attack, was anyone expecting such a high turnout? Nope. Clearly, the actions of the terrorists influenced voter turnout.

Pre-attack, was anyone expecting a 5-7 point lead to turn into at least a 10 point (or more, I still don't have the figures at hand) rout in the space of nine days? Nope. Clearly the actions of the terrorists influenced voter choice. And we need not rely on numbers or trends or polls alone to confirm this. Interviews with Spanish voters tell the tale more eloquently than do numbers.

To pretend that the attack had no influence on the outcome of the election is -- to put it in the most charitable terms I can find -- charmingly naive. If the attack hadn't taken place, would 70% of the voters have turned out? Nope. Would the Socialists have won such a resounding victory? Nope. I say again, read some of the widely-reported comments of the Spanish voters as to their motives for voting as they did, and in many cases even for voting at all.

I say the terrorists won because their goal was to topple Aznar's government. They achieved their goal.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Edame]
    #2443762 - 03/17/04 02:25 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

and many of them seem to think that because the Spanish have rejected Bush's way of doing things that they must be letting the terrorists win.

Good point Edame.

Bush and the neocon crazies have ensured Bin Laden now has the kind of support he could only have dreamed of pre 9/11. The terrorists won the day Bush came to power. They've played him like a deck of cards.

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2443781 - 03/17/04 02:33 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

pinksharkmark writes:
To pretend that the attack had no influence on the outcome of the election is -- to put it in the most charitable terms I can find -- charmingly naive.

Which is why I said:
Do I think the bombings had an influence on some people's voting decisions? Yes. Correlation doesn't always equal causation though.

Would the Socialists have won such a resounding victory? Nope.
Speculation. That's impossible to prove.

I say again, read some of the widely-reported comments of the Spanish voters as to their motives for voting as they did, and in many cases even for voting at all.

I did read a lot of comments, people voted for all kinds of reasons. I'm sure any one of us here could come up with a handful that support our particular view, millions of people voted afterall. Here are a few I cherrypicked from the BBC:

This is not at all a victory for terrorism. It is a victory for true democracy. The infamous manipulation of information about the bombings was just the last straw. We were tired of Aznar's autocracy.
Paula, Barcelona, Spain

Aznar wanted to become big by supporting what's considered an illegitimate war, but clearly paid no attention to his domestic issues, and therefore his party ends up with no reward. My vote was decided a while ago, so please don't get confused!
Frank Gomez, Alicante, Spain

Terrorism is not only putting bombs on a train. Terrorism is also using the power to spread the seeds of hate and intolerance among the nations, the power to go to a war that all the Spaniards condemned. Popular Party, you've dug your own grave. It was your war, but the dead are ours.
M Carmen, Barcelona, Spain

We in Spain have been fighting terrorism since many years ago, and we know that Bush's methods and illegal wars favour and increase terrorism by weakening international law. We want to fight terrorism by reinforcing international law, working with the UN, and promoting international co-operation, human rights and democracy. That's the long but only way.
Juan M Gonzalez, Pamplona, Spain

To call the Spanish people cowards, brave or to apply any form of definition is both trite and pointless. The victory in the election was for democracy. When the elected officials ignore 90% of their electorate, surely defeat is the only valid response of a democratic vote. Focus on the issues, not the emotions!
Fraser, Marbella, Spain

How can anybody name our election as "cowardly act"? Don't you know that, unfortunately, we are very well accustomed to terrorism in Spain? Is it so difficult to understand that we were just fed up of Mr. Aznar for his overbearing style and his indifference for the citizen requests?
Laura, Barcelona, Spain


I say the terrorists won because their goal was to topple Aznar's government. They achieved their goal.

The terrorists didn't topple Aznar's government, the Spanish people did. That this may have coincided with the terrorists' goals (although I think this is yet to be proven) is unfortunate, but does not mean they caused it to happen. The terrorists will undoubtedly try to claim victory , but why lend their claims credibility when they have none?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Edame]
    #2443999 - 03/17/04 04:02 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Here's a good article from LewRockwell.com on the subject...

SPAIN'S SOPHISTICATED VOTERS
by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr., March 17, 2004

"I want a government that does not intervene in the economy."

Don't we all?

But these are not the words one expects to come out of the mouth of a self-proclaimed socialist ? much less the standard-bearer of a socialist party who is about to take power at the head of a major West European nation.

If socialism means anything at all, it is confidence in the government's ability to manage the economy. But with the communists in China clamoring to endorse private property to buck up their credibility with the capitalist class, and the socialists in Spain swearing to curb the welfare-warfare state, words seem to have lost their traditional meanings.

All to the good. Call peace and freedom what you want. Just make them a reality.

The socialist responsible for the above quotation is Jos? Luis Rodr?guez Zapatero, the newly elected prime minister of Spain. By condemning the Iraq war as a disaster, and blasting the government for getting Spain involved, he emerges as a leading spokesman for sanity at a time when the lunatics have taken over the management of governments in the West. It is a credit to the Spanish population to have opposed their government's involvement in the Iraq war to begin with, and to let that opposition show itself in an election.

Zapatero's victory was all bound up with his position in Iraq. He opposed the collaboration of the government with the Bush administration in that dirty war, and, moreover, he promised to pull the troops out right after being elected. He is sticking to that position after the election despite every manner of pressure not to defy the gods in DC.

This isn't a call to nationalized industry, no matter how much the Wall Street Journal might try to spin it as a comeback of the bad-guy commies in Old Europe. What's at work here is nothing but a demand for a non-interventionist foreign policy that stays close to Europe and avoids the moral stain that comes with seeming to approve US imperialism.

What intrigues us in the United States are the circumstances that led to his upset victory. The ruling regime of Jose Maria Aznar received good marks for its economic reform agenda of loosening labor regulations and cutting taxes, but was already deeply unpopular due to its decision to sign up with George Bush in the war on terrorism.

Then the terror bombs hit a train in Madrid, resulting in 200 deaths. The government initially lied about the likely criminals, naming the secession-seeking Basques. That was bad enough. But the real problem was that this sort of blowback was precisely what the opponents of Spanish involvement in the war had expected. They warned that invading other people's countries tends to make people mad, and they tend to strike back. It would increase, not reduce, terror.

And so it did in Madrid ? just as in the United States a war and 10 years of sanctions against Iraq and other interventions in the region led inexorably to 9-11. Millions gathered in Madrid to protest after the bombings, and it wasn't at first obvious what they were protesting. Americans aren't used to mobs who think. But it slowly emerged that they were protesting precisely the right thing: a government that defied popular opinion to do the very stupid thing of getting Spain embroiled in someone else?s fight.

After the bombing, Spaniards didn't shout: "They hate us because we are good!" or "Spain is Number One!" or otherwise pledge their religious devotion to the consolidated Spanish state. Not at all. Instead, they said: that jerk at the top brought this on, because he sold out the nation to appease the Bush administration. There was no Spanish Patriot Act, no creation of a Department of Homeland Security. Instead, there was a wave of good sense which amounted to the following: let's stop making these people mad by invading and occupying their country.

Put that way, the proper response to terrorism is clear: if you are doing something to provoke it, stop!
This is not difficult to understand. What the Spanish case should teach us is that people can understand this simple point.

Americans have somehow come to believe that all acts of terrorism must result in a bigger government. As a result, we have just come to accept the idea that the government will get away with ever more violations of our liberties. In the Spanish case, however, the terror act may result in diminishing government power. This is wholly justified, just as bee stings should teach a person not to agitate them without reason. It is not caving in to the bees to stop poking a stick into their hive.

Why didn't Americans respond similarly after 9-11? The intellectual elites of both parties and all approved political ideologies agreed to impose a taboo in the days following the attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. That taboo was against discussing the events outside the vacuum of that one day. We were all supposed to pretend that the United States government was 100% pure and innocent and had never done anything to anyone.

Incredibly, this was a plausible scenario to many Americans, who had no clue that the US was directly responsible for perhaps a million plus deaths of children in Iraq with its sanctions policies (according to the UN ? but say it's half that for the sake of argument; it makes no difference). Americans are also famously ignorant of Islamic concerns about Infidels With Guns running around in Mecca.

So the elites were able to fob off the lie of US government innocence on the American public because of mass ignorance of US foreign policy. But there was something else in place: the collaboration of the intellectual class in this mass act of censorship. There were a few who dared state the obvious: a professor of Islamic studies in some university somewhere, a commie-style activist, an aging leftist provocateur here and there. They were promptly rounded up and either investigated for their "ties" to the hijackers, or were jeered at and told to leave the country.

It was straight out of Orwell, but it worked. I can think of only a handful of voices who spoke the truth in the month or two following 9-11, and none of them were Beltway think tankers. It could have been otherwise. They could have followed the lead of the Mises Institute, which could not have been more direct (see the last three paragraphs of this piece posted less than one week after 9-11). We were hacked and hit badly as a result, but mostly we were just stunned to find ourselves completely isolated. Would-be allies among those who had warned against US policy in the past just vanished.

With only a handful of voices drawing attention to the reality of American empire ? and thank goodness for these voices ? neoconservatives and the partisans of federal power carried the day. In the course of a few months, they managed to convince Americans of the most amazingly implausible lies that one can imagine: they bombed us because they hate our freedom and high sense of morality, the attackers were a part of a well-organized conspiracy directed from the center by one or two people, and the best way to fight back is to invade lots of Muslim countries and scrap our remaining liberties at home. All of this, by the way, was touted as patriotism.

The Spaniards know the meaning of patriotism, which is best expressed not in the always-shifting vernacular, but in the ancient Latin phrase: Sic Semper Tyrannis.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2444009 - 03/17/04 04:09 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

:thumbup:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2444163 - 03/17/04 05:08 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

There were a few bits I didn't agree with, but there were still plenty of good points I thought.  :thumbup:


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2444437 - 03/17/04 06:36 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Americans have somehow come to believe that all acts of terrorism must result in a bigger government. As a result, we have just come to accept the idea that the government will get away with ever more violations of our liberties. In the Spanish case, however, the terror act may result in diminishing government power. This is wholly justified, just as bee stings should teach a person not to agitate them without reason. It is not caving in to the bees to stop poking a stick into their hive.




unfortunately..the amerikkkan ppl want the honey from that beehive..and theres no way to get it without provoking the bees...in the case of 9/11..the beekeeper suit was ill-fitted..and prolly deliberately so by the junta..to serve its own political interests...

what is even worse is that the majority of amerikkkans think along the lines of pinky and luvdemlies..and would justify the complicity of the junta in 9/11..and its intended result of a closed US society..in terms of "keeping the slackers in line(tm)"...


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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2444545 - 03/17/04 07:03 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Lets not get hysterical about this mush. They are a tiny terrorist group - just like dozens of other terrorist groups. Dealing with them is not akin to War of the Worlds. Try and keep things in perspective.

we will be attacked whether we aggress against them or not. deny it all you like, but taking the fight to the infidels is an integral part of the jihad they preach.

"Training manuals" often have more to do with propaganda than reality. Take them with a pinch of salt.

it's not the only place al-qaeda has made it's 'mission statement' known you know...

Terrorists need support from many places to operate effectively. You make positive attempts to secure a Palestinian state, that cuts off a vast avenue of potential support and recruits. You stop invading countries in the middle east. That cuts off another vast avenue of potential support and recruits. You offer the hand of friendship to the poor in Arab countries - not just the savage dictators you help prop up who rob the countries blind. You build hospitals instead of dropping bombs. That cuts off another vast area of potential support and recruits.

Instead of having 10,000 people who can say "The americans blew the arms off my kid and killed my entire family". You have 50,000 people saying "The americans helped us get fresh drinking water".

The idea is to behave in such a manner that you reduce support for terrorists, not increase it.


i agree with you almost 100% here. doing these things would dry up a lot of support for these groups. however, they will still have some support, and if it becomes prudent to use military force against terrorist enclaves, we should do so.

But every terrorist group since the dawn of time has had some ludicrous "stated goal" like that. That's propaganda 101. It's no use saying your stated goal is to "have a bit of cheese for supper tonight". You say you'll overthrow every government on earth - it sounds cool. It's the kind of thing heavy metal bands say.

maybe some of them are just pissed off about things anyone would be pissed off about, but there are others who are in it for the jihad and take it seriously.

The Iraq rapidly sinking into civil war..

is it really? (genuinely curious... can you start a new thread about that maybe?)

It might not stop Osama Bin laden agreed. But it will sure as stop hundreds of others who might have joined after seeing the Palestinians/Iraqis being slaughtered on a daily basis.

absolutely. i agree that the best part of an anti-terrorist strategy is to do right thing when it comes to foreign policy, but if there is a government which is supporting terrorists who attack the US (which is really just a backhanded way of waging war against us) should we not attempt to prevent that from happening, by force if necessary?

Maybe you'll never stop there being guys like Osama Bin laden. Just like we can't stop serial killers. What you don't do is let yourself be conned into invading countries in oil rich areas of the globe by transparent idiots like Donald Rumsfield as a "cure" for terrorism.

invading iraq may have done more harm than good when it comes to fighting terrorism. i really don't know, but i can certainly acknowledge it as a possibility. afghanistan, on the other hand, is an example of what i'm talking about when i say a foreign government totally coddling to terrorists. i don't think that there was anything wrong with going into afghanistan at all and i think it really has reduced the threat of terrorism, not increased it.

The IRA launched terrorist attacks on the UK for decades with heavy US funding via NORAID. Should the UK have declared war on the US? Or bombed Eire? Would that have been reasonable behaviour?

as far as i'm aware, the US government never gave any funding to noraid. if it had, and had refused to stop when asked, yes, it would have been justifiable for the UK to use force against the US to defend itself if it thought it was wise to do so.

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Crobih]
    #2444605 - 03/17/04 07:19 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Actually you are. You care the responsibility of an average american citizen for the occupation of Iraq.

how? what if i didn't even support the war?

we americans are not calling the shots here. our current president, who recieved a vote from less than 17% of the US population, is.

intentionally attacking and killing US civilians for bush's war, or clinton's sanctions, is not justifiable.

But you are responsible for their death. We all are.

how? specifics please.

We all who did not stand against the Bush or our corrupted government with will that will stop messing with our lives.

by the same logic, those iraqis who did not stand up against hussein's regime are responsible for the deaths of the iraqi civilians who died from american bombs when hussein ordered his army into kuwait.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2444643 - 03/17/04 07:32 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

what is even worse is that the majority of amerikkkans think along the lines of pinky and luvdemlies..and would justify the complicity of the junta in 9/11..and its intended result of a closed US society..in terms of "keeping the slackers in line(tm)"...



Sad that you seem to feel dishonesty is the way to go.

I can assure you I have no love of bigger government and am reasonably sure pinky feels the same. The same can be said for whether or not we feel the feds should be doing many of the things they do. (if I've in any way misrepresented your feelings pinky, let me know)

Dishonesty and trite hackneyed phrases do your arguments no good and quite frankly, rob you of both your dignity and your believability.

Grow up.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2444843 - 03/17/04 08:35 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

im sorry if i unfarily singled out you & pinky...however..a simple search of the archives backs up what i said earlier...and unfortunately..opinions such as those below are far from being unique...and even if you profess not to support cheneyism..a majority of americans i have spoken to offline do..because they hold similar views about what they see as the problem...

Quote:

luvdemlies said:
The reason gas costs 6.00+ a gallon is because the dumb fucks in their governments tax the shit out of it to pay for social programs for the lazy and worthless.

Not from any shortage.




Quote:

luvdemlies said:
Still not tired of being wrong? The freedom to work hard and know you won't have the government STEAL your money to support some lazy scumbag is what's important. The freedom to be what you wish to be, the freedom to defend yourself, the freedom to say what you wish, and more, are what's important.




Quote:

zappaisclod said:
I prefer Bush. Unfortunately, by dint of hard work and superior intelligence (as opposed to inheritence and marriage) I am in the wealthy class he has demonized ($200,000 a year is wealthy???? in NY????), in spite of the fact that we pay most of the taxes already. This is my beef with all Democrats. I also think the Ds have lost their way on security, especially his generation (and mine) because of the horrors the Ds brought us with Vietnam. I absolutely do not think it is in anyone's interest to be taken care of by the government. You lose your motivation and your will when you realize that all your striving will only result in your being taxed to death to support slackers. Disaster relief is fine but cradle to grave relief is a disaster. FDR did more damage to this country with his Social Security Ponzi scheme than anyone else. And it's mostly you suckers who are gonna be left holding the bag when we start to collect. Don't blame us though, we paid more than we will ever collect. You'll be paying for my grandfather's SS, with interest.

Kerry sucks because he is soft on security (a legitimate role of government) and long on pandering. I also find him to be even more dishonest than the current administration and Clinton combined.




Quote:

luvdemlies said:
Perhaps it's because we're getting tired of lazy fucks looking for handouts. Or revolving door justice. Or high taxes. Perhaps because dems want to take away the right to own guns. Or because they realize that a left leaning government wouldn't be worth a shit for the defense of our country. Perhaps we don't want ILLEGAL immigrants wandering willy-nilly across the border.

And the majority of the media in this country leans so far to the left it's a wonder they don't fall of that pedestal of theirs.




:lol: rupert murdoch is a liberal :lol:

Quote:

pinky said:
Annapurna1 writes:

the fact remains that it was the US govt..and not al-Q..that imposed the "choice" of freedom vs. safety on the both the american ppl and the rest of the world...


So your preferred response to the attacks of September 11 would have been....

...what?

Do nothing at all?

Or immediately denounce Saudi Arabia, cancel all their oil contracts, cease all aid to Egypt, Israel, Russia and every other country where the Islamists of that country feel they have grievances with the current rulers of that country?

pinky




which implies at least a grudging support for the actions taken...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2444863 - 03/17/04 08:41 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Heres my thought:

Maybe the poll was wrong. Maybe Aznar was already on his way out. Call me a cynic, but aren't polls used to sway public opinion rather than to describe it??? How is the media in Spain?



Also I think the US is now due for another attack. Or possibly UK.. When we run out of staunch allies it will be alot more difficult to keep the "war on terror" going and we will have to make another investment of citizens before it stalls out.


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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2445139 - 03/17/04 09:34 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

lamblancer said:
get a fucking clue!!!
the moslems have been invading and attacking other nations since 634 and probably earlier.
the "holy jihad" began in 636!



Please educate yourself. This "holy jihad" has not been continuous. The modern-day conflicts between us and the Middle-East have their roots in World War I, after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

thats a joke isn't it? world war 1 was this century, lol, the jihad started in 634(is the exact) and goes on to this day,if thats not continuous what is?
who needs to educate who here?

Quote:

yes they invaded europe and left a trail of death and destruction.



Just like Europe did to them during the crusades?

again,the crusades happened in 1097.(scroll up to evolvings post)
do you think i pulled those dates out of my arse?
again the old "crusades "crap as your argumaent,get it through your head moslems wanted to rule the world since the fall of rome=2000 years ago

Yes, Muslims tried to spread the faith, just like the Christians did. And yes, like the Christians, they sometimes used violent means to do this. For most of Muslim history, however, they've lived in relative peace with the people of Europe. The problems in the Middle East today stem mainly from the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the European colonialism which followed.




no, the christians formed the crusades to stop the scourge of islam that was sweeping towards europe and to stop persecution of christians and jews who pilgrimaged to palestine, not to convert them
so tell me why did they attack poitier and china?china was doing fine without islam for 3000 years before,oh thats right to "spread the faith"with a SWORD
one of the most mightiest moslem armies in history was a foriegn slave army=non muslim slaves,and you think they are all about love and peace?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Edame]
    #2445176 - 03/17/04 09:40 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Edame writes:

Do I think the bombings had an influence on some people's voting decisions? Yes.

Then, as I said, the goal of the terrorists was achieved. They won this round.

I did read a lot of comments, people voted for all kinds of reasons. I'm sure any one of us here could come up with a handful that support our particular view, millions of people voted afterall. Here are a few I cherrypicked from the BBC:

Of course some people didn't change their vote as a reaction to the attack. In fact, I'd bet that most didn't. After all, the lead of the PP wasn't 25 to 27 points six days before the attacks, it was 5 to 7 points.

But the fact remains -- according to quotes from Spanish voters themselves -- that some voted who wouldn't have voted at all if the attack had not taken place. That is indisputable. And others changed their minds about which party to vote for. That is also indisputable. The attack changed the course of the election, according to the very people who voted in that election.

Is it possible the Socialists would have won even if there had been no attack? Yes. A 5 to 7 point lead is not a lock.

But the evidence is irrefutable that a significant number of Spaniards had their votes influenced by the attack. It is also irrefutable that the attack was carried out by terrorists. Therefore, as I have said, the goal of the terrorists was accomplished.

The terrorists didn't topple Aznar's government, the Spanish people did.

The Spanish people voted less than three days after the attack. Many Spanish people have been quoted as saying the attacks influenced their votes. It is sophistry to pretend that there was no connection.

That this may have coincided with the terrorists' goals (although I think this is yet to be proven) is unfortunate...

Gee... ya figure?

... but does not mean they caused it to happen.

On this point, we appear to have different understandings of the concept of "cause and effect". *Shrugs*

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2445209 - 03/17/04 09:45 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

no, the christians formed the crusades to stop the scourge of islam that was sweeping towards europe and to stop persecution of christians and jews who pilgrimaged to palestine, not to convert them



The "scourge of Islam" was not a threat to Europe at that time, and hadn't been for quite some time before. There was one crazy ruler(modern psychiatrists believe he may have been schizophrenic) of Jerusalem named al-Hakim who ordered that the Church of the Holy Seplecre destroyed, and this fueled the first crusade. However, this doesn't account for the subsequent crusades, or the brutal behavior of the crusaders.

Quote:

so tell me why did they attack poitier and china?china was doing fine without islam for 3000 years before,oh thats right to "spread the faith"with a SWORD



I did a Google search for Muslims attacking China and came up with nothing. As far as I can tell, Islam came there through trade, not violence.

Quote:

one of the most mightiest moslem armies in history was a foriegn slave army=non muslim slaves,and you think they are all about love and peace?



Are you referring to the Ottoman Empire? Do you believe that one Muslim army, even if it was the largest, is properly representative of Islam itself? If so, I suggest setting aside your bigotry and getting to know some Muslims in real life. Every Muslim I've met has been a genuinely nice and respectful person. Not that all of them are like that, but you seem convinced that Muslims are brutal barbarians, and that's not the case with most of them.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2445306 - 03/17/04 10:05 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Again, if the terrorists "won," as you put it, yet it was the right thing to do, I see no problem. Terrorists are against giving so many billions of dollars of aid to Israel, but that doesn't mean it's wrong, or that if aid was stopped to Israel the terrorists have won. Terrorists have goals. People have goals. It's inevitable the goals will, occassionally, be one and the same, as terrorists are humans with political opinions. This matters little to me; the terrorists have only won if you think they've won, and while I see how you could think the terrorists partially won, it doesn't matter. This doesn't really help the terorrists much; aid was pulled out of Iraq, but that would have been done anyway. Aznar lost; again, polls say that would have been done anyways. They have no more control of the government, nor more control of the Spanish people, than they did before. And again, it wasn't just the terrorist attacks that influenced voters, but rather the way the government handled it also, blaming it ETA when it pretty obviously wasn't.


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2445355 - 03/17/04 10:13 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Evolving quotes Lew Rockwell:

Instead, there was a wave of good sense which amounted to the following: let's stop making these people mad by invading and occupying their country.

The attacks in Madrid were carried out by Iraqis? How does Lew know this? Or does he mean they were carried out by Afghanis? If so, same question. The news reports I have read keep mentioning Moroccans. Wouldn't be the first time the media got something wrong, I guess. Or maybe I just missed the news of the Moroccan invasion. I don't have a television after all.

Put that way, the proper response to terrorism is clear: if you are doing something to provoke it, stop!

Well, that is certainly one response. Too bad Osama bin Laden and the boys didn't order the US to withdraw its garrison from the "Holy Places" before his minions hijacked a few planes and flew them into buildings. This whole messy misunderstanding could have been resolved so much more easily.

Americans have somehow come to believe that all acts of terrorism must result in a bigger government.

Really? Which Americans might those be? Was the Taliban not toppled with just a few thousand government employees -- troops already being paid? Perhaps some Americans believe that military and intelligence organs need to grow in size in order to hunt down terrorists. I don't think all do.

This is wholly justified, just as bee stings should teach a person not to agitate them without reason.

The key phrase here is "without reason".

Incredibly, this was a plausible scenario to many Americans, who had no clue that the US was directly responsible for perhaps a million plus deaths of children in Iraq with its sanctions policies (according to the UN ? but say it's half that for the sake of argument; it makes no difference).

This -- as has been noted many times here in the past -- is absolute horseshit. The UN-imposed sanctions were in no way responsible for the deaths of a million Iraqi children, nor even half that amount. And of course, if Hussein had not invaded Kuwait, or even if he had withdrawn on his own, there would have been no sanctions. But let's not blame Hussein for that -- he's not American.

Americans are also famously ignorant of Islamic concerns about Infidels With Guns running around in Mecca.

No more ignorant than you, Lew, if you believe armed Americans were running around Mecca.

In the course of a few months, they managed to convince Americans of the most amazingly implausible lies that one can imagine: they bombed us because they hate our freedom and high sense of morality, the attackers were a part of a well-organized conspiracy directed from the center by one or two people...

No Lew, there was no well-organized conspiracy. Two dozen or so disorganized individuals acting spontaneously, all on their own with no guidance, just decided to enroll in flight schools at the same time by coincidence. They hijacked using identical methods four airplanes within hours of each other by coincidence as well. No direction there at all.

...and the best way to fight back is to invade lots of Muslim countries...

As opposed to asking the governments of the countries harboring the terrorists to arrest them? Let me think... *scratches head*... didn't Bush ask the Taliban to do just that?

pinky


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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Ravus]
    #2445453 - 03/17/04 10:30 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Ravus writes:

Again, if the terrorists "won," as you put it, yet it was the right thing to do, I see no problem.

I have no problem with the voters of Spain deciding to kick out one government and elect another. What I have a problem with is them kicking out a government as a kneejerk reaction (and given less than three days between the attack and the election and the understandable emotional turmoil induced by the attack, "kneejerk" is an accurate term to use) to the use of violence directed against civilians.

This matters little to me; the terrorists have only won if you think they've won...

Incorrect. You have it exactly backwards. What matters is not what I think, it's what the terrorists think. And you better believe the terrorists (correctly) think they won.

...and while I see how you could think the terrorists partially won, it doesn't matter.

They didn't "partially" win. They won. And it does matter. If instead of caving, the reaction of the Spaniards had instead been to vote for the PP in overwhelming numbers, and maybe even insisted that the Spanish government increase its presence in Iraq, would you have been as nonchalant about the outcome?

This doesn't really help the terorrists much; aid was pulled out of Iraq, but that would have been done anyway.

Yeah, right. A demonstration that a few carefully placed bombs set off at the right time can cause voters to reverse themselves doesn't help the terrorists at all. You can't possibly be serious.

They have no more control of the government, nor more control of the Spanish people, than they did before.

They don't need to control the Spanish government or the Spanish people. The Spanish Socialists made no secret that one of their top priorities was to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq, which was all the terrorists wanted.

And again, it wasn't just the terrorist attacks that influenced voters, but rather the way the government handled it also...

Excuse me for asking such an obvious question, but if there had been no attack, how could a government mishandle it?

... blaming it ETA when it pretty obviously wasn't.

Actually, in the immediate aftermath of the attack, it was far from "obvious" that the ETA had no involvement. The terrorists may have deliberately designed it that way.

pinky


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2445647 - 03/17/04 11:21 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
The attacks in Madrid were carried out by Iraqis?



The logical assumption would be MUSLIMS.

Quote:

Put that way, the proper response to terrorism is clear: if you are doing something to provoke it, stop!

Well, that is certainly one response.



One VERY SMART response. Too bad so many are blinded by ego generated emotional responses that they cannot recognize it. Please note: ceasing actions which provoke terrorists such as meddling in the affairs of other counties, invading other countries for their natural resources and providing financial and military aid to Isreal DOES NOT rule out hitting back directly at those who share responsibility for terrorist attacks.

Quote:

Americans have somehow come to believe that all acts of terrorism must result in a bigger government.

Really? Which Americans might those be?



Apparently you're not keeping up with current events in the states. Here are a couple of clues, 'Department of Homeland Security' & 'TSA.' Much of the increased spending, increased beaurocracy have received support from many U.S. citizens. I could actually give you a list of people I know as friends, neighbors and professionally who support the massive increase in size of government in response to terrorism with no clue about addressing it's underlying causes.

Quote:

This is wholly justified, just as bee stings should teach a person not to agitate them without reason.

The key phrase here is "without reason".



That's right, he should have stated, "without a Constitutionally justifiable or moral reason." I do recognize that some may support the reason of controlling oil supplies and supporting the state of Isreal, others however do not look upon these as valid on Constitutional or moral grounds.

Quote:

Incredibly, this was a plausible scenario to many Americans, who had no clue that the US was directly responsible for perhaps a million plus deaths of children in Iraq with its sanctions policies (according to the UN ? but say it's half that for the sake of argument; it makes no difference).

This -- as has been noted many times here in the past -- is absolute horseshit. The UN-imposed sanctions were in no way responsible for the deaths of a million Iraqi children, nor even half that amount.



Even if it is 1,000 deaths, the morality is the same. So are you advocating that it is morally justifiable for the U.S. to punish innocent third parties for the actions of a dictator which they live under?

Quote:

Americans are also famously ignorant of Islamic concerns about Infidels With Guns running around in Mecca.

No more ignorant than you, Lew, if you believe armed Americans were running around Mecca.



You're right, troops stationed in Saudi Arabia don't count.

Quote:

In the course of a few months, they managed to convince Americans of the most amazingly implausible lies that one can imagine: they bombed us because they hate our freedom and high sense of morality, the attackers were a part of a well-organized conspiracy directed from the center by one or two people...

No Lew, there was no well-organized conspiracy. Two dozen or so disorganized individuals acting spontaneously, all on their own with no guidance, just decided to enroll in flight schools at the same time by coincidence. They hijacked using identical methods four airplanes within hours of each other by coincidence as well. No direction there at all.



You are ignoring the point of the U.S. propaganda, "they bombed us because they hate our freedom and high sense of morality" which was taken in by the unwashed masses hook, line and sinker. As far as the organizational structure... they are organized in cells, it is decentralized. It is in fact, a structure well known in the intelligence and special operations communities.

Quote:

...and the best way to fight back is to invade lots of Muslim countries...

As opposed to asking the governments of the countries harboring the terrorists to arrest them? Let me think... *scratches head*... didn't Bush ask the Taliban to do just that?



Please provide proof that Iraq's secular government was actively aiding Islamic extremist who want to bring a theocracy to all the Muslim countries. Please provide proof that Iraq's government funded and carried out the attacks of 9/11.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2445842 - 03/18/04 12:28 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Evolving writes:

The logical assumption would be MUSLIMS.

Does Lew not understand that Muslims live in several countries, not all of which have been invaded by Spain?

Apparently you're not keeping up with current events in the states. Here are a couple of clues, 'Department of Homeland Security' & 'TSA.' Much of the increased spending, increased beaurocracy have received support from many U.S. citizens.

While I am not convinced that any huge new department needed to be created in order to act as a clearing house for information gathered by the existing intelligence organizations of the US, foreign-based and domestic, I was under the impression that one of the few legitimate functions of government was to protect its constituents. Is the purpose of the Homeland Security Department and the TSA not to protect US residents?

That's right, he should have stated, "without a Constitutionally justifiable or moral reason." I do recognize that some may support the reason of controlling oil supplies and supporting the state of Isreal, others however do not look upon these as valid on Constitutional or moral grounds.

I don't normally read Lew Rockwell. Am I correct in assuming he was opposed to US troops entering Afghanistan as well?

So are you advocating that it is morally justifiable for the U.S. to punish innocent third parties for the actions of a dictator which they live under?

Nope. I have stated here many, MANY times that the correct course of action would have been to finish off Iraq's Ba'athist regime back in 1991. The UN coalition decided not to, so instead the UN imposed sanctions. The fact remains that sanctions would never have been imposed (or would have been lifted at least a decade sooner than they were) had Hussein not invaded Kuwait in the first place, or if he had withdrawn without being forced to, or even if he had lived up to the ceasefire agreement.

You're right, troops stationed in Saudi Arabia don't count.

Saudi Arabia is not Mecca. If Lew had said "Saudi Arabia" rather than "Mecca", I would not have made my comment.

You are ignoring the point of the U.S. propaganda, "they bombed us because they hate our freedom and high sense of morality" which was taken in by the unwashed masses hook, line and sinker.

Part of their motivation for bombing the US was because the freedom of the West is a threat to their vision of a worldwide Islamic theocracy. And they certainly have a hatred for the US version of morality. They find it an offense before Allah that Americans casually accept partially undressed women, for example. I don't imagine they are big fans of radio shock jocks or Super Bowl halftime shows or Hollywood movies or Hip Hop either.

A lot of Americans find it impossible to believe such visceral disgust might possibly be (in the minds of religious zealots) a compelling reason to bomb civilians. But then, a lot of Americans lack a firm understanding of a lot of things.

Please provide proof that Iraq's secular government was actively aiding Islamic extremist who want to bring a theocracy to all the Muslim countries. Please provide proof that Iraq's government funded and carried out the attacks of 9/11.

When Lew referred to "invading lots of Muslim countries" my assumption was he had more than just Iraq in mind, so I automatically thought of Afghanistan. Presumably Kosovo and Bosnia and Somalia don't count, since the US interventions there prevented more Muslims from being killed. Oh wait! Hussein was killing Muslims, too. Well, that's beside the point, isn't it?

If Lew meant to refer just to Iraq, he might have made it a little clearer.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2445999 - 03/18/04 02:01 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

every moslem i've ever met was corrupt in one way or another,none of them work,they all sell drugs and seem to have a good tax free car stereo speaker installation service running from their welfare homes backyard.
when i was 12 years old i was riding a pushy with two mates and i stopped at a shop to have a look when this pig wog of a moslem walks up to me out of the blue and slaps me across the face,"what was that for you fucking wog" i cried and he said "because your friend hit my wifes arse", i had nothing to do with it and he couldn't catch him so he hits another aussie kid...me!
and you call me a bigot?
actually my moslem neighbour up the roads 10 yr old kid broke his ankle in a soccer game a few months ago and what do they do?
they don't go to a doctor for two weeks,his father (who hates america and teaches his australian born kids to hate them aswell btw) takes his kid for a drive,tells him to put his broken foot under the seat and then he slams on the breaks to re break it and get a compo claim out of it.lol just a small example of moslem corruption
we have moslems trying to close down public access to public pools,so their wives can swim without the sinful eye of the infedel kaffars and you say i'm a bigot?
we have councils who ban the selling of ham sandwiches in electorates overrun by moslems as to not offend them and you say i'm the bigot?
instead of mingling with a few moslem university students(i presume) go to a moslem country wearing the stars and stripes and ask them what they think of you,your throat would be slit before you could open your mouth
better still if you ever come to australia go to bankstown,fairfield or auburn in sydney with your gf and see what a great night you will have there
you will get a true lesson in bigotry and your gf will get a lesson in what not to wear according to islam auburn style,bring a tissue for the spittle

lolol

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2446346 - 03/18/04 07:13 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Dude, do you mind taking your childhood traumas and whining about your Muslim neighbors to OTD or maybe Support Group Central?

Your badly punctuated little rant has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I'm trying to enjoy a very interesting debate going on here between Evolving and pinky.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2446749 - 03/18/04 10:40 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

instead of mingling with a few moslem university students(i presume) go to a moslem country wearing the stars and stripes and ask them what they think of you,your throat would be slit before you could open your mouth



I wouldn't go around America wearing the stars and stripes, so I sure as hell wouldn't do so in a foreign country, when our president has pissed off the whole world. I bet you, however, that they wouldn't mind at all if I wore a shirt with a Canadian flag on it. I'd also like to point out that Muslims could expect the same kind of treatment in certain parts of America as Americans get in Muslim countries. Both groups make the mistake of associating the people of another country with that country's government.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2447434 - 03/18/04 02:03 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

dude, why don't you ******* edited by pinksharkmark

Edited by pinksharkmark (03/18/04 02:10 PM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2447445 - 03/18/04 02:06 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

dude, why don't you suck my cock you fucking fairy

Calm down lamb.

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2447473 - 03/18/04 02:11 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

yes alex123 i apologise to all but that was a fairy swipe at me,i didn't go off-topic,just defending myself,i was lost for words and puncuation :shake:

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2447478 - 03/18/04 02:12 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Go to the first page of this forum. Read the post titled "Political Forum Rules". Follow them.

You get one warning before you are referred to the administrators for banning. This is that warning.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2447494 - 03/18/04 02:14 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

wiil the antagonizer be getting a warning too?
or are personal insults and off topic remarks with a touch of browntonguing to mods tolerated by a select few in here?

Edited by lamblancer (03/18/04 02:17 PM)

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2447545 - 03/18/04 02:28 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Edame writes:

Do I think the bombings had an influence on some people's voting decisions? Yes.




pinksharkmark writes:
Then, as I said, the goal of the terrorists was achieved. They won this round.

The goal of the terrorists may coincide with the election result, but that doesn't mean that they caused it.

To go over what we've been discussing, the terrorist attack may or may not have influenced some (but not all) people's voting decisions in the elections. How this influenced each person we cannot know, some may have decided they were going to vote long ago, some may have been convinced at the last minute. Some may have known the candidate they were going to vote for in advance, some may not have known, some may have voted out of anger or protest. Again, who did this and who didn't we can't know unless we ask everyone who voted and they all tell us the truth.

Other factors may include people like the film director Pedro Almod?var, who is currently accused of spreading a rumour that Aznar's party was planning a coup after the bombing:

The Oscar-winning film director Pedro Almod?var was yesterday pitched into the centre of a row about Spain's dramatic general election, as the defeated People's party said it would sue him for slander.

His supposed crime was to give wings to one of the many rumours that raced around Spain on election night at the weekend - passed on by emails and mobile phone text messages - that the People's party of the prime minister, Jos? Mar?a Aznar, had prepared a coup attempt.


Did these rumours influence some people's voting decisions? I think if we accept that the bombings themselves did, then we have to accept this too. Did Pedro Almod?var bring down the Spanish government? Could he confidently claim 'victory' for himself? I don't think so.

Another influence was undoubtedly the ruling party's insistance that ETA was to blame. According to another Guardian article, Aznar's party tried to push a resolution blaming ETA through the UN Security Council just hours after the attacks:

The UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, said yesterday that the outgoing Spanish prime minister, Jos? Mar?a Aznar, had paid for backing the Iraq war and blaming last week's terrorist attacks in Madrid on Eta.

His comments came after Spain was forced to explain to the UN why, within hours of the attacks and with no culprit identified, it had pushed a motion blaming Eta through the security council.


Did this dishonest political maneuver topple the government? Again, I doubt it, even though it probably influenced some people in some way (but we can't tell in what way, after all, plenty of people still did vote for the PP).

But the evidence is irrefutable that a significant number of Spaniards had their votes influenced by the attack.

I agree (but which way were they influenced, and how many?). Many were also influenced by many other factors (such as those above) that came both before, and after the attack. I don't think you give the Spanish much credit if you ignore the other factors and imply that the bombing alone influenced their votes and thus handed the terrorists a 'victory'. They weren't forced at gunpoint to go out and vote.

The Spanish people voted less than three days after the attack. Many Spanish people have been quoted as saying the attacks influenced their votes. It is sophistry to pretend that there was no connection.

I'm not pretending there was no connection, but to turn that connection into the sole cause of the upset is where I can't agree with you.

To use a crude analogy, the terrorists are not playing the same 'game' as the rest of us (democracy). The Spanish people excercising their freedom to vote and make their own decisions, in record numbers, looks like a 'win' for democracy to me, regardless of which party comes to (or stays in) power. The terrorists are playing a 'game' of intimidation, death and destruction. Unfortunately they acheived part of that hideous goal, but they had no part in the democratic election process, no candidates, no votes, only bombs. When they use tactics like that and play outside of the system, their claims of 'victory' ring pretty hollow to me.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Edame]
    #2447904 - 03/18/04 03:45 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Edame writes:

The goal of the terrorists may coincide with the election result, but that doesn't mean that they caused it.

Gee, of course not! All those Spaniards quoted as saying that they weren't even going to vote at all before the attack occurred were lying through their teeth.

Look, if you have convinced yourself that the attack didn't influence the outcome of the election, nothing I (or any Spanish voters for that matter) have to say will change your mind. You think I (and just about every political commentator in the entire world) am mistaken. I know you are mistaken.

As far as the future of the world is concerned, it matters not a whit what I know or what you think. What matters is what the terrorists think. And the terrorists don't just think that their actions influenced an election in a Western democracy, they know it. They will try this tactic again. Bet on it.

Other factors may include people like the film director Pedro Almod?var, who is currently accused of spreading a rumour that Aznar's party was planning a coup after the bombing:

No election happens in a vacuum. Of course other things influenced the way people voted. After all, the vote wasn't unanimously in favor of the Socialists. Some people didn't alter the voting decision after the attack. But some undeniably, by their own statements, did. I know that, you know that, the terrorists know that.

Another influence was undoubtedly the ruling party's insistance that ETA was to blame.

And as I said, perhaps the terrorists planned it that way. They're not total idiots, you know. It's no big trick to lay a false trail. The false trail inevitably is discredited... given time. But the attack was three days before the elections. That's not a lot of time to conclusively say one way or the other, is it?

Besides, to repeat myself yet again, if there had been no attack, there would have been no blame of the ETA. What's so hard to comprehend about that?

The UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, said yesterday that the outgoing Spanish prime minister, Jos? Mar?a Aznar, had paid for backing the Iraq war and blaming last week's terrorist attacks in Madrid on Eta.

Whatever would the world do without Kofi Annan and the UN?

Did this dishonest political maneuver topple the government?

"Dishonest"? Have you actually read any of the first reports coming out? There were definitely indications suggesting it was an ETA attack -- the choice of explosives, for one. "Mistaken", okay. Dishonest? Nope.

And again -- no attack, no misplaced blame.

They weren't forced at gunpoint to go out and vote.

No, of course not. Guns are scary. Bombs are not.

To use a crude analogy, the terrorists are not playing the same 'game' as the rest of us (democracy).

Gee.... ya figure?

The Spanish people excercising their freedom to vote and make their own decisions, in record numbers, looks like a 'win' for democracy to me, regardless of which party comes to (or stays in) power.

A win for democracy? I for once am rendered speechless.

You will recall that Hussein's last "victory" also involved a record turnout of voters. Vote the way the murderers want or be killed.

The terrorists are playing a 'game' of intimidation, death and destruction. Unfortunately they acheived part of that hideous goal, but they had no part in the democratic election process, no candidates, no votes, only bombs.

No part? I am completely shocked into silence here. I've started this sentence about six times, only to go back and redo it, and redo it again. I have no words to express the profound disconnect between reality and your perception of it.

When they use tactics like that and play outside of the system, their claims of 'victory' ring pretty hollow to me.

And I'm sure the terrorists are sobbing themselves softly to sleep at night because Edame considers their victory a hollow one.

They won, they know they won, and they will attempt this same tactic again.

pinky


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2448045 - 03/18/04 04:07 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Your patience is mind boggling.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2448139 - 03/18/04 04:25 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
One VERY SMART response. Too bad so many are blinded by ego generated emotional responses that they cannot recognize it. Please note: ceasing actions which provoke terrorists such as meddling in the affairs of other counties, invading other countries for their natural resources and providing financial and military aid to Isreal DOES NOT rule out hitting back directly at those who share responsibility for terrorist attacks.




So, the jews should have just stopped owning business, having hooked noses, practising their religion, and "controlling the banks"? Geez, the holocaust is THEIR fault! I've always thought it was stupid to blame the cold-hearted killers that did it, it's CLEARLY the fault of those that didn't give in to the demands of the cold-hearted killers. I thank you for clarifying that, now lets start demanding repirations from the Jews for having to pay for the gas we used to kill them, it was their fault, after all!

Ugh, i'm not even reading the rest of this crap.

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2448253 - 03/18/04 04:58 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

The goal of the terrorists may coincide with the election result, but that doesn't mean that they caused it.

Gee, of course not! All those Spaniards quoted as saying that they weren't even going to vote at all before the attack occurred were lying through their teeth.

The difference between you and I is that I'm not implying that those Spaniards quoted somehow represent the whole of Spain, prove that the terrorists 'caused' the election result, or are even indicative of anything but their own opinion.

Look, if you have convinced yourself that the attack didn't influence the outcome of the election, nothing I (or any Spanish voters for that matter) have to say will change your mind. You think I (and just about every political commentator in the entire world) am mistaken. I know you are mistaken.

I haven't conviced myself of anything, you are the one who claimed that the terrorists 'won' and that the whole election was one big knee-jerk response to the attacks. I was offering an alternative viewpoint. At no point have I claimed that my view is the correct one. You might know I'm 'mistaken', I'm saying I don't know, and that I think your reasoning is flawed. That "just about every political commentator in the entire world" (!) supposedly shares your view doesn't mean a lot to me, there are other viewpoints, I'm interested in hearing them.

As far as the future of the world is concerned, it matters not a whit what I know or what you think. What matters is what the terrorists think. And the terrorists don't just think that their actions influenced an election in a Western democracy, they know it. They will try this tactic again. Bet on it.

I'm sure they do 'know' it, and I'm sure they will try again. I'm sure they also 'know' that Allah is the One True God too, doesn't make the claim itself any more valid because they fervently believe it.

But the attack was three days before the elections. That's not a lot of time to conclusively say one way or the other, is it?

I'm not the one trying to make conclusive statements, I'm asking questions and offering opinions.

They weren't forced at gunpoint to go out and vote.

No, of course not. Guns are scary. Bombs are not.

What exactly is your point here? Are you implying that the bomibings somehow forced people to go and vote against their will?

The Spanish people excercising their freedom to vote and make their own decisions, in record numbers, looks like a 'win' for democracy to me, regardless of which party comes to (or stays in) power.

A win for democracy? I for once am rendered speechless.

I'm not sure why. A record turnout, and a nation voted to use the democratic process to change their elected government. That's what democracy's about (and why I consider it a 'win').

You will recall that Hussein's last "victory" also involved a record turnout of voters. Vote the way the murderers want or be killed.

I don''t see a connection, Hussein's 'victory' (a simple choice of 'yes' or 'no') was widely dismissed around the world. You were trying to imply that Saddam's 'election' was somehow valid or similar to the Spanish one? Do you think of Spain as a dictatorship pretending to be a democracy?

The terrorists are playing a 'game' of intimidation, death and destruction. Unfortunately they acheived part of that hideous goal, but they had no part in the democratic election process, no candidates, no votes, only bombs.

No part? I am completely shocked into silence here. I've started this sentence about six times, only to go back and redo it, and redo it again. I have no words to express the profound disconnect between reality and your perception of it.

How many terrorists were manning voting stations, or voting, or putting candidates up for election? Bombing and killing people wasn't part of the democratic process last time I checked. Do I think the terrorists influenced people? Yes (as I keep saying). Do I think they had a part in the democratic election process? I don't, I think their means of persuasion fall outside of this.

I'm comforted that your omnipotent and impartial view of 'reality' is available to correct my flawed perception of it.

And I'm sure the terrorists are sobbing themselves softly to sleep at night because Edame considers their victory a hollow one.


Like I care, it's just my opinion and I'm well aware of that fact. Just as I'm aware that your opinion isn't fact either, even if you state it as such repeatedly.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

Edited by Edame (03/18/04 04:59 PM)

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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Phred]
    #2448351 - 03/18/04 05:28 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:They won, they know they won, and they will attempt this same tactic again. pinky




That is true. They know they won. But you forget to remember that they knew it all the time. That is the reason why they decided to be so brutal. That provokes human empathy. Because, when you see what does it mean 200 people dead and 1500 wounded, than these numbers are not numbers any more. But much more than that.

All these figures of people accidentally murdered by occupying forces in Iraq, are not numbers any more. But souls who died because of Bush taking him right for doing illegitimate operation. And when you do not have legitimacy to do something, because of its injusticeness, than humans need for justice start working very strongly.

Yes this is terrorism wining. As it seems to be the only way to wake up sleepy catle who did not mind to have the war in their name. I am really glad for seening it. Because if the reaction was opposite, that would mean that oligarchy could manipulate with these people as long as it wants to. Meaning till the Big Brother scenario.

Yes. This is the great victory for terrorism. This is the great victory for democracy.

Oh. I just realised something. this has nothing to do with terrorism. But for Al Quaeda, who is actually terroristic organisation. Though, American war machine is either terroristic organisation and it did not win this time. Using simple division technicke, what it reminds is this was the win for democracy ONLY.

Edited by Crobih (03/18/04 05:32 PM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2519341 - 04/02/04 03:07 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2519765 - 04/02/04 05:47 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Well, they managed to catch this one, didn't they? Devoting more resources on defense rather than offense appears to help.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2519777 - 04/02/04 05:53 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

"A train employee called in bomb-disposal experts..."

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2519781 - 04/02/04 05:54 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, ok. But do you think that aggression works any better?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2519784 - 04/02/04 05:57 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

in certain situations.

i wonder why they were trying to bomb the tracks this time?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2519789 - 04/02/04 05:58 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I agree. Like when the enemy is a government, and not an independent resistance movement.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2519807 - 04/02/04 06:04 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

i think that when actual terrorists, their training facilities, or weapons caches can be attacked, they should be.

now... this incident raises a good question...

WHY did terrorists decide to do this?

if this was an act perpetrated by muslim extremists, why?

in retaliation for what?

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2519831 - 04/02/04 06:16 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Some people, be they Muslim or not, just have a taste for killing and mayhem.

This bomb may not have been the work of Muslims, but by any group that has seen that bombs sway people.

Which is why those who set them should be tracked down and killed in the most painful and public way possible.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: ]
    #2519868 - 04/02/04 06:28 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I agree that this latest attack seems senseless. I think most "terrorists" commit such acts because they believe, justifyably or not, that they are fighting their oppressors. But this one just doesn't make sense to me.

EDIT: I just thought of an interesting conspiracy theory. Make of it what you will. Maybe the ruling party that was voted out of power planted the bomb so as to discredit the socialists. Just a thought.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (04/02/04 06:31 PM)

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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2520174 - 04/02/04 09:30 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

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