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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Socialists take Spain
    #2433392 - 03/15/04 02:06 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Fantastic to see a major player in Bush's "coalition of the lying bastards" thrown out on their arse  :yesnod:


Furious voters oust Spanish government

Socialists gain power as Aznar is punished for bloodshed

Giles Tremlett in Madrid
Monday March 15, 2004
The Guardian

Spanish voters punished prime minister Jos? Mar?a Aznar's People's party for the bloodshed of last week's Madrid terrorist attacks yesterday, throwing it out of government in an angry reaction to his handling of the aftermath.
In one of the most dramatic elections of the post-Franco era, voters turned on the ruling party, convinced that the multiple bomb attack on Madrid's packed commuter trains had been carried out by al-Qaida and with a growing sense that the People's party had tried to hide the truth.

With intelligence agencies around the globe trying to identify a man who, in a videotape found in Madrid, claimed responsibility for the attacks for al-Qaida and with three Moroccan suspects in police custody, most voters believed the Spanish capital had suffered its equivalent of the September 11 attacks in the United States.

Socialist leader Jos? Luis Rodr?guez Zapatero swept to a surprise victory that was a blow to the Bush administration. He has pledged to withdraw Spain's 1,300 troops from Iraq if the UN does not take control by June 30 when Washington plans to hand power back to Iraqis.

Protesters accused the government of trying to hide the fact that violent Islamism was to blame and demanded explanations for Mr Aznar's backing of the Iraq war against the will of some 90% of Spaniards.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1169404,00.html


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2433403 - 03/15/04 02:09 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

It just gets better  :smile:

Spain's Socialists won a sensational victory in yesterday's general elections, in a vote that confounded the polls and inflicted a huge punishment on the Popular Party government for supporting the war in Iraq.

Voters believed that Jos? Maria Aznar's support for President George Bush had put Spain in the front line as a target for Islamist radicals, and directly produced the devastating terrorist attacks in Madrid on Thursday. Additional discontent was caused by the strong suspicion that Mr Aznar's government was hiding information pointing to al-Qaida's possible involvement, through fear that it would rebound against it in the poll.

One of the main planks of Mr Zapatero's platform was his promise to bring home the 1,300 Spanish troops now serving with the coalition in Iraq. This is a position supported by all the other parties in opposition to the Popular Party.

Last night's vote is a crushing defeat for the combative and remote political style of Mr Aznar, who had hoped to hand over power seamlessly to his handpicked successor. Mr Aznar tried to wrench Spain away from its loyalty to Europe and pledge it instead to the Atlantic alliance that took it to war, and ? in the eyes of the voters ? to Thursday's tragedy.

The lesson will not be lost on Tony Blair. Mr Blair has lost his most reliable pro-Bush European ally. Now isolated in Europe but for the mercurial Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, Mr Blair must be contemplating the prospect that his absolute majority may, like Mr Aznar's, melt away.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=501295


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2433485 - 03/15/04 02:38 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

alex...im a bit curious as to why..in your opinion..the bombing had the opposite effect in spain than it would have had here...and if anyone else has such an opinion..pls share it with the audience...thx...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2433498 - 03/15/04 02:42 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe their education system is better over there?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2434054 - 03/15/04 09:44 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

:tongue2:


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2434140 - 03/15/04 10:44 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I can only hope that Blair suffers a similar voter backlash. To quote Spain's incoming Prime Minister:

"The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster."

"Wars such as those which have occurred in Iraq only allow hatred, violence and terror to proliferate,"


If only we had a Prime Minister cabable of such thoughts.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2434443 - 03/15/04 12:36 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

So...


I guess terrorism is an effective tool when used against Spain.

They must be geniuses.


No wait, I mean stupid pussies. Why would a terrorist act sway a vote in favor of giving terrorists what they want?

I mean, I could understand why they would vote the existing party out of office if they were unhappy with their decisions prior to the bombings, but these articles seem to suggest that the election results were a surprise, and the result of backlash from the terrorist attacks.


My question is: How do the terrorists feel anout the election results? Did the terrorists "win" this election?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2434448 - 03/15/04 12:37 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I guess it was because 90% of the population were against the war anyway. Being taken to war by some lunatic is bad enough, when it results in hundreds of people being blown up it must be very hard to take.

I'm guessing the Brits are going to take the next attack. Only trouble here is Blair is even furthur to the right than the neocons - so there's no alternative  :frown:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Edame]
    #2434463 - 03/15/04 12:40 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I can only hope that Blair suffers a similar voter backlash

Who do we vote for tho Edame!! Blair's supposed to be the socialist party but he's furthur right than the tories!

Lib-dems?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2434504 - 03/15/04 12:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

No wait, I mean stupid pussies. Why would a terrorist act sway a vote in favor of giving terrorists what they want?

You're confusing invading Iraq with combatting terrorism. They arn't, and never have been, anything to do with each other.


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Anonymous

Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2434543 - 03/15/04 12:57 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You're confusing invading Iraq with combatting terrorism. They arn't, and never have been, anything to do with each other.

i don't think he is, and that isn't the issue. whether the iraq war had anything to do with combatting terrorism has no bearing on babyhitler's assertions.

they could have attacked in response to spain's liberal drug policy. if the people then elected a leader pledging to be tough on drugs... you get the idea.

the actual reasons (or excuses, if you prefer) for the iraq war are unrelated to what baby hitler is saying.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2434555 - 03/15/04 12:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I was thinking Lib Dems. There's no way I could ever vote tory, and Labour are just as bad. Lib Dems don't have the experience, but at this point I'm willing to give them a try. I'd rather take my chances with the untested Lib Dems than stick with Tony's attempts to turn us into Airstrip One.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2434770 - 03/15/04 01:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

If terrorist demands coincide with doing what is right, you should do what is right. If terrorist demands go against doing what is right you should do what is right. To avoid the right path merely because is might coincide with terrorist demands does not make your choice(s) the right one(s).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Xlea321]
    #2434815 - 03/15/04 02:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I think what Spanish voters were MOST angry about was that the Aznar government kept trying to point the finger at the ETA Basque separatists when it was becoming clear as day that it was al-Qaeda:

Nobody sent a warning (something ETA always does)
ETA denied responsibility (something they've never done before)
An al-Qaeda cell claimed responsibility
There was physical evidence linking the bombing to al-Qaeda
There was no physical evidence linking it to the ETA

This was the state of affairs when Spanish voters went to the polls, yet the Aznar government, obviously knowing what the political fallout would be, kept trying to insist that ETA was the prime suspect.

Spinning a criminal investigation into the worst terror attack your country has ever seen for political gain is pretty sickening, and Aznar's party deserved to lose even if for that reason alone. I guess Aznar didn't learn the lesson well enough from his mentor about how to exploit terror for political fun and profit .

At least Spanish voters were smart enough to see through the crap.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2434823 - 03/15/04 02:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

No wait, I mean stupid pussies. Why would a terrorist act sway a vote in favor of giving terrorists what they want?



If the terrorists get what they want(and like Evolving said, that should only be when what they want is what is right), then they won't have any more reason to fight you, and therefore your population is a little safer than before(of course, this should also come hand-in-hand with increasing your defenses against a future attack).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2434963 - 03/15/04 02:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

  If terrorist demands coincide with doing what is right, you should do what is right. If terrorist demands go against doing what is right you should do what is right. To avoid the right path merely because is might coincide with terrorist demands does not make your choice(s) the right one(s).





once again you have relieved me of the need to post.  thanks!
:thumbup:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2436547 - 03/15/04 09:42 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That's true, but these articles suggest that the terrorist attacks swayed the voters into voting in a way that would be more pleasing to the terrorists.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: silversoul7]
    #2436556 - 03/15/04 09:44 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

What do they want?


Is it right?


I'm not saying people should vote against their conscience just to spite the terrorists, I'm just wondering why the terrorist attacks would change anyone's opinion of what is right?

Why did the attack sway any votes at all?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2436590 - 03/15/04 09:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Why did the attack sway any votes at all?



Maybe the fact that their government didn't protect them well enough. Or maybe the fact that their government's actions abroad made them more of a target for attack.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialists take Spain [Re: Evolving]
    #2436594 - 03/15/04 09:52 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Evolving writes:

If terrorist demands coincide with doing what is right, you should do what is right. If terrorist demands go against doing what is right you should do what is right. To avoid the right path merely because is might coincide with terrorist demands does not make your choice(s) the right one(s).

Absolutely.

However, all pre-election polls prior to the attack pointed to a comfortable win by Aznar's party. This would seem to indicate that a whole hell of a lot of people hastily switched their idea of what was "right" in a very short period of time. Post-election quotations from many voters (many of whom had not even intended to vote at all prior to the attack) make it clear that a significant number voted they way they did purely because of the attack.

Coincidence?

Uh huh.

pinky


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