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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis
    #1594086 - 05/30/03 06:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Why are people afraid to test their favorite supernatural or paranormal hypothesis? I have been here for three years of jabbering, and other than providing for social interaction, the S&P forum has contributed suprisingly little, if anything, to the advancement of knowledge about psychedelics and mysticism.

I frequently present a "Swami Challenge" seemingly tongue-in-cheek, but would seriously like to discover if there is anything to any of the popular myths that abound here.

I really don't understand if the problem is apathy, or if those that claim to believe really don't believe, but just want to, and a negative result might awaken them from the daydream.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1594172 - 05/30/03 07:07 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I don?t think has nothing to do with people been afraid, of your tests of challenges, is that paranormal activity in most of us is a rarity, most of the times can not be reproduce at will, just like falling in love it just happens, is an experience.
Try to form a hypothesis of a feeling, can you?
What I find interesting is your constant insistence in trying to debunk paranormal activity.
The human mind is still so uncharted that some of this things could exist, even thou there is a lot of fantasy around the topic I choose to remain opened to the possibility.
You never know.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: LOBO]
    #1594475 - 05/30/03 08:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

What I find interesting is your constant insistence in trying to debunk paranormal activity...most of the times can not be reproduce at will...
Actually, Lobo, if you review most all of my challenges, they has been in direct response to the claimant stating that they COULD reproduce certain effects.

There are two major possibilities when considering a paranormal claim. Either the claimant is guilty of fuzzy thinking and conclusion jumping, in which case he needs to better learn to use his rational mind; or there is something to the claim, in which case the phenomenon needs to be examined so that we can better understand the how and why of it. Is this unreasonable to you?

most of the times can not be reproduce at will
Yes, this is the standard weak defense. I can predict a roll of one die 16% of the time. Do I have special powers?

just like falling in love it just happens
Not at all, There are in fact, specific triggers for falling in love, but that is for another thread.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1594571 - 05/30/03 09:26 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

What would be your suggestion to test a paranormal event? Of course, that is assuming the individual claims to have such power... under absolute control....

What if they just found out about it... Like a child learning how to walk... They'd fall alot, you know.... You can't simply assume that they are experts due to a discovery which may have even been accidental...

The event dosen't have to be mind reading or anything... I'm refering to anything out of what is termed ordinary.

But at the same time... what if it is not really the actual individual doing the "activity" ? I'm curious... does that still fall under the label of paranormal? [ This may force some people to open up their Can-O-Laughs... but what if it happened due to something such as .. I dunno... " Imaginary " friends? ]

The best conceptual analogy of any "wierd" kind of event taking place, as far as I can tell so far, stems from the concept of synchronicity. I understand that is an already taken term, however...

But... Have you not noticed how sometimes things just fall into place so darn perfectly? It happens all the time ! I've even seen it myself, first hand !!... But it is not, usually, something you can count on... It seems to happen in spurts...

My interests are there, personally... I can't accept an answer that implies randomness... To me, the person who says that is tired of thinking about it any further, or has no answer... so they say... ya ya ... its random...

I agree with your concept... That there are specific triggers. Ya.. I would say so... However, how is one to describe what they cannot see?

If a test to make things happen, in terms of free will, fails... then one can deduce that 100% control is not there... So then what?

Would a statistical analysis say anything about it?

What kind of proof are you looking for? Real time? Or, lag-time proof?

Although real time is a definate goal to look towards, I have yet to see one important thing... consistency throughout the sample.

If you consider "spurts of paranormal activity"... Is there something that can be said about that? Can spurts be validated in any way? [ Let us make a small assumption for a moment... that it is ONLY available in spurts ] ... What now?



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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1595039 - 05/30/03 11:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Have you not noticed how sometimes things just fall into place so darn perfectly?
No.

If you consider "spurts of paranormal activity"... Is there something that can be said about that?
One evening a backgammon player rolled four consecutive sets of 66 in a row. A spectator remarked "How incredible. What are the odds of that happening?" I replied, "1 in 1". He looked shocked and responded, "No way! It is like a million to 1 or something."

Here is where many people get lost. The chance of it happening after the fact is 100% or 1 / 1. Odds only come into play before the fact, which in this case is 1 / 1,679,616.

This is what happens when seemingly sychronous events happen. People look for a link between two unrelated events and find some non-existent pattern or relationship then assign meaning to it. Each and every day there are numerous possible links or triggers, so there are bound to be regular coincidences. Our brains are pattern-recognition engines and will strain to find one whether it exists or not, like seeing a face in the clouds or hearing a song on the radio that they were just humming.

I once guessed a stranger's first and last name with no clues and that memory sticks with me. The thousands of "misses" I don't remember at all. This is the beauty of selective memory, which may explain many out-of-the-ordinary claims.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (05/31/03 11:55 AM)


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1595290 - 05/31/03 01:20 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

but maybe thats the thing.... maybe you learn so much from coming in contact with so many unrelated events... you get better at putting these things together. the more patterns you see. the more things you dont see. the more selective your memory becomes... and say you stumble upon a situation... you keep your awareness high... and you guess there name. maybe thats what people have seen as devine all along. not being able to explain the things that seem so amazing. maybe we are just becoming better with our cognition... maybe all that unused space is trying to fill itself up. maybe using these patterns will help us "logically" to force us to use dynamic thinking to help construct and expand our heads. I think you just take the mysticism out of what is just facts. some people just like to elaborate on some things more than others... and maybe who knows... maybe they are in touch with some other force... while at the same time experiencing something that isnt all that out of the this world and combining the two like you said.

... If you could help me test any of my "hypotheses" than i would be cool. i seem to be constantly trying to figure just what the hell is going on... maybe its life and im missing out... i dont know.


--------------------
What?


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1595344 - 05/31/03 01:49 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

"One evening a backgammon player rolled four consecutive sets of 66 in a row. A spectator remarked "How incredible. What are the odds of that happening?" I replied, "1 in 1". He looked shocked and responded, "No way! It is like a million to 1 or something."  "
------------------

You replied to it yourself : " The chance of it happening after the fact is 100% or 1 / 1. Odds only come into play before the fact, which in this case is 1 / 1,679,616."



And I agree.  ANYTHING, no matter who what where when why [or  how],  after the fact  is 1/1... and the odds count BEFORE the event.

Albeit, it still stands that, the odds of that occurance are, as you've quoted: 1/1,679,616.  LOL  :grin:  ...  that was just a "smarty pants" kind of answer you gave to the spectator... 

So let's say that that player left the casino...  and bought a lottery ticket...  and won.  Since he/she  won... ya.. it is 1/1 ..cause it happened...  What are the odds then, that that player would get the backgammon 66 x 4 and then win a lotto [ of say..  6 numbers ranging from 1 to 49...  of which,  the odds of that are what...  1/ 13,983,816 ? ]..?

Everyone would be ..."DAMN !!!  What a lucky SOB !!!"    But seriously...  What would be the odds of it happeneing...  That is to say.. the realization of both of those events?

After the fact it is always 1/1 ...  Obviously, once the fact has happened, then that's it...  there's no other way it could have been for that person [because that is how it unfolded for them]. Looking back at it, and replaying it using your mind's eye, it's a done deal...  it is, just as if it were, pre-determined...  Since in your memory, the outcome is, now technically,  pre-determined, the only odds you can quote are 1/1...  Because you already know the answer.

Now let's disregard this concept of predeterminism I just mentionned...  In which the case is 1/1 ...  ALWAYS...  cause it could have been no other way...

If you are at a scale at which you do not know the outcome before hand, the odds become valid again.



Ok.. So, let's replay this scenario... and let's pretend we have no idea what is gonna happen...  We'll plead ignorance....  What are the odds of that player's story unfolding as it has? [... That is, having relished a positive outcome of both events..]
========================



"Have you not noticed how sometimes things just fall into place so darn perfectly?
No."
-------------------------------

Are you kidding me?  You've NEVER noticed anything? Are you looking?

....  Now careful... This dosen't necessarily mean that you are going out of your way to look for "it"...  I mean this in terms of identification...

  Like in algebra...  if you have a huge mess of variables...  say ...  3af+3az-6afy =>  3a(f+z-2fy)  you simplify by assigning "rules of conduct"  so to speak...  this, in turn, allows you to identify with the equation...  If you have no idea of the rule called factoring like terms...  you don't "see" the resultant.
=========================


"This is what happens when seemingly sychronous events happen. People look for a link between two unrelated events and find some non-existent pattern or relationship then assign meaning to it."
----------------------------------

What if, meaning is assigned first, and then a pattern unfolds, evidently synchronous...  Could it be said that this manner relating it [ ie-  backwards from what you said ] were perhaps, a more inteligent approach? 
=======================


"I once guessed a stranger's first and last name with no clues and that memory sticks with me. "
-----------------------------------

HA HA HA HA !!!!  That's great !!!  :laugh:  I'll bet that freaked the both of you out !!! 

I have a friend of mine...  one day we were just standing there, and we both uttered a sentence ( a reasonably multi-worded sentence ) ...  same speed, same intonnation...  exact!  :shocked: 

Absolutely shocked!  I face him and say, while laughing: " That's hillarious!  Kinda makes you wonder who's really doing the thinking eh? "

This happened a couple years ago, and to this day we both cannot remember the sentence.  :confused:

I simply illustrate that, yeah, these things happen... Peculiar though... isn't it?

:grin:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1595434 - 05/31/03 02:28 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know Bro. I could take some entheogens in a ceremony and spirit would tell me things. How could you possibly test that?


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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1595446 - 05/31/03 02:35 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You could test it, but it would mean nothing - the answer/solution would be that you took entheogens and nothing paranormal happened.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1595847 - 05/31/03 10:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

There are two major possibilities when considering a paranormal claim. Either the claimant is guilty of fuzzy thinking and conclusion jumping, in which case he needs to better learn to use his rational mind; or there is something to the claim, in which case the phenomenon needs to be examined so that we can better understand the how and why of it. Is this unreasonable to you?
 



No it is not unreasonable at all, but at the same time be aware the scientific method may not be able to be applied properly to this type of phenomena yet (lake of proper instruments etc)
For example not long ago, 20 years, some scientists were saying that our solar system may be the only one with planets, but advances in instrumentation has verified that this is not correct.
Even more I just heard a talk with Dr. kaku (not sure how you spell his name) saying that just about everything that is being taught in school now about physics is outdated and incorrect, not long ago those were absolutes for science.
Quote:

Yes, this is the standard weak defense. I can predict a roll of one die 16% of the time. Do I have special powers? 



Bro that is just plane silly, I may self don't pretend to be a psychic, but I did have dreams with extreme detail that came to be real episodes in my life years later.
Your system of statistics cannot be applied on every type of paranormal phenomena.
Quote:

Not at all, There are in fact, specific triggers for falling in love, but that is for another thread. 



Is that a fact? or just a theory?
Because on the same token, brain researcher TDA lingo attributes that paranormal activity is triggered by the amygdales, which opens bioelectrical activity in the frontal lobes.

There is another problem in trying to research this type of activity (and this is my opinion from my own experience)
For example I had several oobe's, when I am out of my body, I don?t think the same way, like when I am in it, is a total different state of consciousness, like you will not go and  spy at people or use it to stel secrets etc, no different that when you are tripping on shrooms(I have done this my self) I prepare a set of things that I want to  accomplish during the trip, and when I am tripping I look at them as plane silly and stupid.
Don?t get me wrong swami I am a firm believer in science, But I now at the same time that the level of our science may not be a total absolute.
Chin chin.
:grin:
 


--------------------


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Adden]
    #1595940 - 05/31/03 12:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

For example I had several oobe's, when I am out of my body, I don?t think the same way, like when I am in it, is a total different state of consciousness, like you will not go and spy at people...
Perhaps OBE is a misnomer and it is merely another brain state. However, if one truly leaves their body, why would it be impossible to test for it?

Don?t get me wrong swami I am a firm believer in science, But I now at the same time that the level of our science may not be a total absolute.
Don't make the mistake of equating scientific knowledge with the scientific method of inquiry; they are not at all the same.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleOlgualion
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1595957 - 05/31/03 12:15 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Trying to prove these things goes hand in hand with finding a unified theory. If we do find one, you will know the answers.


--------------------
Study the past...
See the future...


Edited by Olgualion (05/31/03 12:17 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: LOBO]
    #1596215 - 05/31/03 02:26 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

From Grav in another relevant thread:

I believe in mind-reading because i've witnessed undeniable proof.

Yet, skeptics aren't allowed to witness this "undeniable" proof. Now why is that?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleOlgualion
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1596246 - 05/31/03 02:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yet, skeptics aren't allowed to witness this "undeniable" proof. Now why is that?




You just described the process of a skeptic turning into a believer!


--------------------
Study the past...
See the future...


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1596304 - 05/31/03 03:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Swami if you want to test, JUST WAIT. Wait my friend for great evolution thats taking place, YOU'LL see and if you don't have your own "concidences" then you'll probibly start to see it on the news and such. Wait for at least one year, but i think you'll start to see stuff in the coming months.


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1596351 - 05/31/03 03:33 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps OBE is a misnomer and it is merely another brain state. However, if one truly leaves their body, why would it be impossible to test for it?
 



Perhaps it is another brain state I really don't know, I call it out of body because that what it really feels plus you get to see your body laying around (at least some visual confirmation that you are out), and I never said that will be impossible to prove it, maybe some could, what I was trying to convey to you is that in that state you have different priorities, is hard to explain if you haven?t had one, like trying to explain someone who has never tried mushrooms what the feeling is, you can?t you have to experience it.
I hope you get to experience one.  :wink: 


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: LOBO]
    #1596480 - 05/31/03 04:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

there seems to be two possibilities..

1. The thing which the person is skeptical of does not exist.
2. The skeptic has simply not witnessed the action for himself, nor has the action been recorded by a source that is reliable to the skeptic.




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Offlinelucid
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Grav]
    #1596609 - 05/31/03 05:31 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

3. Absolute reality does not exist and reality is subjective... hence the action exists for the believer and does not exist for the skeptic.
4. The skeptic does not exist and neither does the action, but only perception
of the observer (i.e. it's all in your head - reality, the world, this post etc... in fact this post is actually a projection of your mind... )


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: lucid]
    #1596946 - 05/31/03 09:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

3. Absolute reality does not exist and reality is subjective... hence the action exists for the believer and does not exist for the skeptic.

Which is why the number of spontaneous remissions of believers with cancer who go to Lourdes for healing is actually less than the statistical norm. So much for the awesome power of belief and subjective reality.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597151 - 06/01/03 12:16 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

>Which is why the number of spontaneous remissions of believers with cancer >who go to Lourdes for healing is actually less than the statistical norm
aha ! but it's only less in the sceptics reality... in the "believers" reality the
healing rate is 110 % !!
in fact, not only is their cancer cured, but they are endowed with health,
happiness and psychic powers ... all ya gotta do is BElieve !
of course, if this doesn't happen to u then it's all your fault, since u
just didn't believe enough ! there's some doubt lingering in your subconcious
mind that you're not even aware of ! Satan himself has instilled this in u !

I'm all too familiar with this system, it's amazing, no way around it.


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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