Home | Community | Message Board


MushroomCube.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Believing the paranormal into existence?
    #4551675 - 08/18/05 03:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I had some weird thoughts due to the discussion of paranormal activity at the forum, but soon evolving into something more... Its long, but worth reading I hope.

People investigating the paranormal from the believers sources will find that there are lots of experiments which give evidence of significant paranormal effects -with chances millions to one for the effect to be a coincidence.

However, equally many other similar experiments have gotten no results
whatsoever.

What is interesting here is that studies show that scientists who believed in paranormal effects got positive results, while the results of the sceptic scientists fell to chance.

We might then speculate whether:

1) the believing scientists cheated the sceptics.
2) the believing scientists cheated themselves.
3) the scientists' belief-system influenced their experiments.

1) Its a scam:
We know for sure that there has always been telephathy scams and spiritists hoaxes around for the last 100 years, but everyone with a little knowledge of what is going on in paranormal research, even if sceptic, would not accuse the scientists involved in modern paranormal research of cheating.

2) The believing scientists cheated themselves:
Selfdeception is a common human trait which is of course unconscious. This might involve 'putting aside' an experiment that destroyed the good statistics (and even make rational excuses for why this experiment should be disregarded). This is referred to as the 'filedrawer problem'. This might be a viable explanation for why believers get results, but the file drawer problem is of a quite general nature, and as such is certainly not limited to scientists investigating the paranormal. However, ever since pointed out, the file drawer problem is accounted for in all modern paranormal experiments. Still, some scientists get extraordinary results.

Option 3) We create reality:
This is a dangerous statement because it undermines all scientific objectivity. But, really, is there a world out there independent of our experience of it and how would you ever know if this was the case?

You might think that you are 'here and now' due to some evolutionary mechanism, but how do you know that you do not create the past? You pick up some clues that you choose to emphasise and create them into a belief-system that is constantly reinforced by new experiences (which is experienced that way due to the nature of the belief-system... you see the loop).

What makes history real, is in what degree it brings the past closer to the present. A logical structure has no place for "leaps of faith". Accepting its beforehand agreed upon premises, the beginning of the logical argument is equal to its end.

In this way the theory of evolution has merit, because, accepting the premises on which it is built, it explains a lot from very simple assumptions.

All such theories will seem like good explanations for a while, but in the end they all implode upon themselves, hen and egg, observer and observed.

A scientific structure is only consistent up to point break. It is like a tower you build to reach the sky. It depends upon the seeker how many bricks he must lay down before he understands that he will never reach the sky in that way (and with this realization he understands that the sky is the limit  :tongue:). Most people will, however, find themselves a nice room in the tower and trust that the people at the top eventually will work things out. But hey, some might start
looking at the bricks in the wall, and might suddenly discover that they in fact aren't real...

There is no scientific truth. Yes, the sun rises in the east, but thats the way I want it. I couldn't want it any other way, because I absolutely do not believe that I am strong enough to fight against gods or dragons. Neither do I cut off my head in order to think more clearly. My computer is certainly a product of quantum mechanics, but that does not mean that quantum mechanics is a true theory or that my computer is real in an absolute sense. It is all part of a limited structure that is suspended in unlimited space.

A guru can also hang suspended in space, but that is only for the believers to see :eek:.

But what if this reality trip applied in some degree to science as well? We might say that a scientific theory that is eventually "proven", was there all the time. It was just a matter of someone discovering it and fighting the paradigmatic battle for a while before getting accepted. Not so me thinks...

Agreed upon reality is the great dragon that does not know any reality outside his smokey nostrils. A formidable and powerful beast.

A person charging the dragon front on, will not stand a chance. You cannot kill the dragon. The only way is to ride the dragon, that means that you respect and work with the dragon, but you do not let him pull you down to his vibrational level.

A scientific theory is only a consistent structure that has, through the struggle of the individuals that created it or approved of it, won the world-dragons favor. The universe is infinite in possibilities! It does not HAVE to be thus or that.

There are many scientists that have already solved the earths energy problems, with solid evidence to back up their claims, but will this technology really help us? There are, after all, always something left to be desired...

There are also a lot of people who have experienced the "paranormal" (me too, me too!), but what is the point of talking of these things, scaring some, harvesting scorn from others, if you can not pass on the insight in the same spirit as it was given to you?

Do we want to rape the dragon so that our own ideas can conquer the world? Is that a "good" thing to do?

I'm no longer sure that I believe (oups.. that word is dangerous) that this is the way to do it. It seems like the eternal dead end, repetitve and roaring. So I leave the dragon in peace, and if he asks, I will answer.

But love is an end in itself -and it conquers all. I do believe that  :sun:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #4551740 - 08/18/05 03:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

To sum up: this is known as experimenter bias. Start with a hypothesis and then look high and low to back it up. This is not real science.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 10 days, 1 hour
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #4551775 - 08/18/05 03:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Haven't read all of your post yet, but I noticed you are still online, so I just thought I would comment that it is paranormal for a post by The_Visionaire to appear! :shocked:  :eek:

Long time no see, man. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: Swami]
    #4551777 - 08/18/05 03:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

So what do you want to find? 'Nothing weird' is also an expectation?

And as I said, there have been developed experimental methods that takes into account the experimenter bias and makes sure that it does not effect the results by any known cause. And even then there seems to be positive effects from believers... that implies som weird paranormal activity :tongue:

But I see that my theory of "believing into existence" can not be scientifically disproven so do not bother with it...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4551793 - 08/18/05 03:50 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Haha :grin:

Still banging down the walls and sprouting fireworks I see :thumbup:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 10 days, 1 hour
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #4551823 - 08/18/05 03:59 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The_Visionaire said:
Haha :grin:

Still banging down the walls and sprouting fireworks I see :thumbup:




It seems to be what it is that I am good at doing. :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRedNucleus
Causal Observer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 4,074
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 6 months, 23 days
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #4551880 - 08/18/05 04:16 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If paranormal stuff is real, all someone has to do is go look up the Randi Ed. Foundation and set up an experiment with them to prove it under controlled conditions. Then there will be widespread scientific recognition of the phenomenon. Until that happens, it's tough to accept any old "scientific study". Shit I have two books on the "scientific proof" of some catholic bogusness like eucharists bleeding. All it is is people's stories...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineiambobby
I am what I am
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 201
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4554336 - 08/19/05 03:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Its not exactly paranormal if it can be explained using the normal terms we have come to grips with.

From Cambridge...
Paranormal is "impossible to explain by known natural forces or by science:"

I think the argument to try and tell someone to explain something beyond the laws of science is as dumb as trying to prove it using the limiting construct. Real science? All we have ever done is started with an observation and hypothesis and worked backwards to arrive at a way of explaining what is going on. Are you suggesting that we first find a law and then see how it works in reality? There could be no point to this other than righteousness of intelligence...

You might be surprised to find out just how similar Science and Religion are. People were no longer satisfied with the blind faith model they had been given. Understanding God was "too complex" for the average man so men were placed in positions of power in order to be mediums for the folk. The folk started to become savvy of this power play as they realised they had nothing and the religions had everything. They started to question faith: Introducing the birth of science.

I think it can be said with strength that if you react to something or you oppose something, your efforts are naturally laced with that which you are trying to move away from. Throughout time we have done alot of things ignorantly out of reaction hoping to solve it, however for some reason, there it is again, the problem staring us right in the face.

Just like in the past with the religions controlling the majority view of the world, we now have scientists controlling the mass view of the world. Religion handed out sins. Science dishes out the boundaries. Yumm yumm gimme some more laws to abide to. You went to a school where of course you were programmed into the 'ways of the limitation'. You tried to be too creative expressing some emotion in your work and you got a 'F'. When you did what you were told you got an 'A'. What are you doing looking outside the window? Get your eyes back down between those 2 exciting lines.

After a good portion of our lives being told about limitation, what works and what doesn't, we come out as good believers in this new religion of black and white, yes and no, right and wrong, 1 and 2 and sticks and stones.

Science was presented as sort of being against religion and so the people were for it. However there was a period of time where the average joe had no idea about it or was privelaged to have access to the formation of the new laws that were being created. Because the people who were losing respect for religion knew that science represented the opposition, they fell for it. There was a period of time where once again, blind faith however was fully at play.

If ridicule surfaces against my reply, once again, recognise this is the way of the teachings we all learned to conform to. When you go with the construct, you feel pride while when somebody is 'wrong' they are to feel shame. I don't think i'll need to get scientific proof to make a theory such as this: when one feels threatened by a subject, he will retaliate with ridicule as a means to weaken the subjects personal energy to follow their own dreams. This is something we do do disassociate ourselves from that which doesn't support our paradigm.

You guys talking it up with science like you know it just seem like you're pulling at theories the way preachers pulled at quotes in the bible. Every limiting belief is just another thing we can't do. When somebodies stepping outside of the bubble we seem to feel the urge to quote the rule book we gobbled up in our hay days of study.

Think back to that point where you were learning about maths... did you ever question it? No shit, 1 and 1 = 2 but you never questioned it, did you? Programmed with out a clue that you were being brainwashed into building a construct that would eventually trap you into a world of numbers and righteousness. You learned that a fixed world exists with fixed laws and you were told not to question this. What happened if you said it didn't make sense to you in the classroom? Well, it made you a stupid child and everybody knew about it. Gobble it up and be quiet. Scientists are as much into blind faith as anybody.

Tell me I'm wrong and show me you're threatened and you just validate my argument moreso. I too am engaged in this dynamic however this is something I will fight for because it is a worthy cause. Fear is not my motivator. Freedom from confines is. I offer no new laws or ways except yourself. Encouraging me and accepting what I am saying is purely encouraging yourself.


--------------------
Yesterday, the world was flat. Today, the world is a round ball. Tomorrow? The world will not be defined so easily with words...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineiambobby
I am what I am
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 201
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: iambobby]
    #4554348 - 08/19/05 03:27 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I feel very fortunate to have been raised with a new-age mother who repeatedly told me when I said I can't do something...

"Bobby, there's no such thing as _can't_!". Hellellujah!!!!


--------------------
Yesterday, the world was flat. Today, the world is a round ball. Tomorrow? The world will not be defined so easily with words...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleELECTRIC
I'm a Puppet

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 177
Loc: Bonded with string...
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: iambobby]
    #4554495 - 08/19/05 05:30 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

iambobby:"...From Cambridge...
Paranormal is "impossible to explain by known natural forces or by science:"



I'd probably throw in the word current in there somewhere...



I mean... The internet, for example, would seem quite paranormal to folks, say... 200 years ago...


--------------------
Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineiambobby
I am what I am
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 201
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: ELECTRIC]
    #4554539 - 08/19/05 06:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Thats kinda what I'm talking about. There are many things that exist today that were paranormal in the past. Is that proof that the paranormal exist? Now that we can define it though its no longer paranormal :shrug:


--------------------
Yesterday, the world was flat. Today, the world is a round ball. Tomorrow? The world will not be defined so easily with words...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4554781 - 08/19/05 10:53 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If paranormal stuff is real, all someone has to do is go look up the Randi Ed. Foundation and set up an experiment with them to prove it under controlled conditions. Then there will be widespread scientific recognition of the phenomenon.




What I am saying also accounts for why paranormal effects never happen in controlled environments conducted by sceptics, because this would then happen in an entirely different "belief-sphere". And the more subtle and elusive a phenomenon, the more prone to influence of belief it is.

Take for instance the neutrino. It is quite analogus to what is happening in psi-research.

The neutrino was not found at first, it was postulated by Pauli in the 30's based on calculations conserving energy, momentum and spin. Massive efforts were taken to prove the existence of the neutrino, but by the middle of the 20th century there was no clear experimental evidence acceptable by the scientific community at large confirming this notion beyond doubt, apart from some experimental claims in 1959 that are known today to be basically flawed on varios grounds.

During the 80's, after Gran Sasso lab in Italy had stood for 5 year not detecting a single neutrino. But after billions of dollars and the efforts of hundreds of experimentalist, some claims of detection was finally made.

Also in Russia evidence of neutrinos were eventually found, but the Russians found neutrinos with mass while the Americans found massless neutrinos!

You can count on your hand the number of neutrino hits discovered each year, not even close to be considered as final evidence in any way.

Not only this, the standard model predicts 6 different neutrinos in order to have the calculations fit, and also further elaboration upon these, involving oscillating neutrinos that goes from one type to another to explain inconsistencies. This is just laughable!

They may continue to build on this tower for some time, but such massive constructs tend to crumble under their own weight. Nature prefers easy solutions.

I'd be fun to let Randi loose at those neutrino physicists :evil:

I wont deny that I would like to see paranormal effects manifest, and the standard model of physics being crushed. Thats part of my belief system, and I see in this a desire to "unbalance the equation", as the Oracle in Matrix says.
But thats how the Tao currently manifests in me. Limitations are for weasels :tongue:

By the way; Good post Bobby :thumbup:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineiambobby
I am what I am
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 201
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #4560273 - 08/20/05 08:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I just read your posts to a mini audience of 3 with wide eyes and almost, disbelief.

Keep on flying that dragon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:handth:


--------------------
Yesterday, the world was flat. Today, the world is a round ball. Tomorrow? The world will not be defined so easily with words...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRedNucleus
Causal Observer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 4,074
Loc: The Seahorse Valley
Last seen: 6 months, 23 days
Re: Believing the paranormal into existence? [Re: iambobby]
    #5271318 - 02/06/06 10:48 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

bump


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* believable "paranormal" activities Atomisk 819 8 05/19/04 03:40 PM
by deff
* Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Swami 5,396 91 06/05/03 12:43 AM
by spiritshaper
* Evidence: When does it exist?
( 1 2 all )
satyr 2,220 31 09/22/08 01:44 AM
by zouden
* Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Ego Death 4,453 117 08/24/05 09:11 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* Comas, The Origin Of Consciousness, And The Non-existence Of Soul
( 1 2 all )
DiploidM 2,636 35 01/06/06 06:08 PM
by Sclorch
* aliens don't exist, I have proof
( 1 2 3 all )
chodamunky 9,811 58 09/26/02 06:53 AM
by In(di)go
* Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Shroomalicious 5,393 69 12/18/02 08:30 PM
by Strumpling
* Believing in nothing becomes a belief.
( 1 2 all )
chemkid 2,079 31 10/14/02 08:20 PM
by xganon

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
1,223 topic views. 0 members, 9 guests and 10 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Original Seeds Store - Cannabis Seeds
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 16 queries.