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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis
    #1594086 - 05/30/03 04:38 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Why are people afraid to test their favorite supernatural or paranormal hypothesis? I have been here for three years of jabbering, and other than providing for social interaction, the S&P forum has contributed suprisingly little, if anything, to the advancement of knowledge about psychedelics and mysticism.

I frequently present a "Swami Challenge" seemingly tongue-in-cheek, but would seriously like to discover if there is anything to any of the popular myths that abound here.

I really don't understand if the problem is apathy, or if those that claim to believe really don't believe, but just want to, and a negative result might awaken them from the daydream.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineLOBO
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Registered: 03/19/01
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1594172 - 05/30/03 05:07 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I don?t think has nothing to do with people been afraid, of your tests of challenges, is that paranormal activity in most of us is a rarity, most of the times can not be reproduce at will, just like falling in love it just happens, is an experience.
Try to form a hypothesis of a feeling, can you?
What I find interesting is your constant insistence in trying to debunk paranormal activity.
The human mind is still so uncharted that some of this things could exist, even thou there is a lot of fantasy around the topic I choose to remain opened to the possibility.
You never know.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: LOBO]
    #1594475 - 05/30/03 06:50 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

What I find interesting is your constant insistence in trying to debunk paranormal activity...most of the times can not be reproduce at will...
Actually, Lobo, if you review most all of my challenges, they has been in direct response to the claimant stating that they COULD reproduce certain effects.

There are two major possibilities when considering a paranormal claim. Either the claimant is guilty of fuzzy thinking and conclusion jumping, in which case he needs to better learn to use his rational mind; or there is something to the claim, in which case the phenomenon needs to be examined so that we can better understand the how and why of it. Is this unreasonable to you?

most of the times can not be reproduce at will
Yes, this is the standard weak defense. I can predict a roll of one die 16% of the time. Do I have special powers?

just like falling in love it just happens
Not at all, There are in fact, specific triggers for falling in love, but that is for another thread.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1594571 - 05/30/03 07:26 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

What would be your suggestion to test a paranormal event? Of course, that is assuming the individual claims to have such power... under absolute control....

What if they just found out about it... Like a child learning how to walk... They'd fall alot, you know.... You can't simply assume that they are experts due to a discovery which may have even been accidental...

The event dosen't have to be mind reading or anything... I'm refering to anything out of what is termed ordinary.

But at the same time... what if it is not really the actual individual doing the "activity" ? I'm curious... does that still fall under the label of paranormal? [ This may force some people to open up their Can-O-Laughs... but what if it happened due to something such as .. I dunno... " Imaginary " friends? ]

The best conceptual analogy of any "wierd" kind of event taking place, as far as I can tell so far, stems from the concept of synchronicity. I understand that is an already taken term, however...

But... Have you not noticed how sometimes things just fall into place so darn perfectly? It happens all the time ! I've even seen it myself, first hand !!... But it is not, usually, something you can count on... It seems to happen in spurts...

My interests are there, personally... I can't accept an answer that implies randomness... To me, the person who says that is tired of thinking about it any further, or has no answer... so they say... ya ya ... its random...

I agree with your concept... That there are specific triggers. Ya.. I would say so... However, how is one to describe what they cannot see?

If a test to make things happen, in terms of free will, fails... then one can deduce that 100% control is not there... So then what?

Would a statistical analysis say anything about it?

What kind of proof are you looking for? Real time? Or, lag-time proof?

Although real time is a definate goal to look towards, I have yet to see one important thing... consistency throughout the sample.

If you consider "spurts of paranormal activity"... Is there something that can be said about that? Can spurts be validated in any way? [ Let us make a small assumption for a moment... that it is ONLY available in spurts ] ... What now?



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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1595039 - 05/30/03 09:23 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Have you not noticed how sometimes things just fall into place so darn perfectly?
No.

If you consider "spurts of paranormal activity"... Is there something that can be said about that?
One evening a backgammon player rolled four consecutive sets of 66 in a row. A spectator remarked "How incredible. What are the odds of that happening?" I replied, "1 in 1". He looked shocked and responded, "No way! It is like a million to 1 or something."

Here is where many people get lost. The chance of it happening after the fact is 100% or 1 / 1. Odds only come into play before the fact, which in this case is 1 / 1,679,616.

This is what happens when seemingly sychronous events happen. People look for a link between two unrelated events and find some non-existent pattern or relationship then assign meaning to it. Each and every day there are numerous possible links or triggers, so there are bound to be regular coincidences. Our brains are pattern-recognition engines and will strain to find one whether it exists or not, like seeing a face in the clouds or hearing a song on the radio that they were just humming.

I once guessed a stranger's first and last name with no clues and that memory sticks with me. The thousands of "misses" I don't remember at all. This is the beauty of selective memory, which may explain many out-of-the-ordinary claims.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (05/31/03 09:55 AM)

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1595290 - 05/30/03 11:20 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

but maybe thats the thing.... maybe you learn so much from coming in contact with so many unrelated events... you get better at putting these things together. the more patterns you see. the more things you dont see. the more selective your memory becomes... and say you stumble upon a situation... you keep your awareness high... and you guess there name. maybe thats what people have seen as devine all along. not being able to explain the things that seem so amazing. maybe we are just becoming better with our cognition... maybe all that unused space is trying to fill itself up. maybe using these patterns will help us "logically" to force us to use dynamic thinking to help construct and expand our heads. I think you just take the mysticism out of what is just facts. some people just like to elaborate on some things more than others... and maybe who knows... maybe they are in touch with some other force... while at the same time experiencing something that isnt all that out of the this world and combining the two like you said.

... If you could help me test any of my "hypotheses" than i would be cool. i seem to be constantly trying to figure just what the hell is going on... maybe its life and im missing out... i dont know.


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What?

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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1595344 - 05/30/03 11:49 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"One evening a backgammon player rolled four consecutive sets of 66 in a row. A spectator remarked "How incredible. What are the odds of that happening?" I replied, "1 in 1". He looked shocked and responded, "No way! It is like a million to 1 or something."  "
------------------

You replied to it yourself : " The chance of it happening after the fact is 100% or 1 / 1. Odds only come into play before the fact, which in this case is 1 / 1,679,616."



And I agree.  ANYTHING, no matter who what where when why [or  how],  after the fact  is 1/1... and the odds count BEFORE the event.

Albeit, it still stands that, the odds of that occurance are, as you've quoted: 1/1,679,616.  LOL  :grin:  ...  that was just a "smarty pants" kind of answer you gave to the spectator... 

So let's say that that player left the casino...  and bought a lottery ticket...  and won.  Since he/she  won... ya.. it is 1/1 ..cause it happened...  What are the odds then, that that player would get the backgammon 66 x 4 and then win a lotto [ of say..  6 numbers ranging from 1 to 49...  of which,  the odds of that are what...  1/ 13,983,816 ? ]..?

Everyone would be ..."DAMN !!!  What a lucky SOB !!!"    But seriously...  What would be the odds of it happeneing...  That is to say.. the realization of both of those events?

After the fact it is always 1/1 ...  Obviously, once the fact has happened, then that's it...  there's no other way it could have been for that person [because that is how it unfolded for them]. Looking back at it, and replaying it using your mind's eye, it's a done deal...  it is, just as if it were, pre-determined...  Since in your memory, the outcome is, now technically,  pre-determined, the only odds you can quote are 1/1...  Because you already know the answer.

Now let's disregard this concept of predeterminism I just mentionned...  In which the case is 1/1 ...  ALWAYS...  cause it could have been no other way...

If you are at a scale at which you do not know the outcome before hand, the odds become valid again.



Ok.. So, let's replay this scenario... and let's pretend we have no idea what is gonna happen...  We'll plead ignorance....  What are the odds of that player's story unfolding as it has? [... That is, having relished a positive outcome of both events..]
========================



"Have you not noticed how sometimes things just fall into place so darn perfectly?
No."
-------------------------------

Are you kidding me?  You've NEVER noticed anything? Are you looking?

....  Now careful... This dosen't necessarily mean that you are going out of your way to look for "it"...  I mean this in terms of identification...

  Like in algebra...  if you have a huge mess of variables...  say ...  3af+3az-6afy =>  3a(f+z-2fy)  you simplify by assigning "rules of conduct"  so to speak...  this, in turn, allows you to identify with the equation...  If you have no idea of the rule called factoring like terms...  you don't "see" the resultant.
=========================


"This is what happens when seemingly sychronous events happen. People look for a link between two unrelated events and find some non-existent pattern or relationship then assign meaning to it."
----------------------------------

What if, meaning is assigned first, and then a pattern unfolds, evidently synchronous...  Could it be said that this manner relating it [ ie-  backwards from what you said ] were perhaps, a more inteligent approach? 
=======================


"I once guessed a stranger's first and last name with no clues and that memory sticks with me. "
-----------------------------------

HA HA HA HA !!!!  That's great !!!  :laugh:  I'll bet that freaked the both of you out !!! 

I have a friend of mine...  one day we were just standing there, and we both uttered a sentence ( a reasonably multi-worded sentence ) ...  same speed, same intonnation...  exact!  :shocked: 

Absolutely shocked!  I face him and say, while laughing: " That's hillarious!  Kinda makes you wonder who's really doing the thinking eh? "

This happened a couple years ago, and to this day we both cannot remember the sentence.  :confused:

I simply illustrate that, yeah, these things happen... Peculiar though... isn't it?

:grin:

 


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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1595434 - 05/31/03 12:28 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know Bro. I could take some entheogens in a ceremony and spirit would tell me things. How could you possibly test that?

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1595446 - 05/31/03 12:35 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

You could test it, but it would mean nothing - the answer/solution would be that you took entheogens and nothing paranormal happened.

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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1595847 - 05/31/03 08:57 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

There are two major possibilities when considering a paranormal claim. Either the claimant is guilty of fuzzy thinking and conclusion jumping, in which case he needs to better learn to use his rational mind; or there is something to the claim, in which case the phenomenon needs to be examined so that we can better understand the how and why of it. Is this unreasonable to you?
 



No it is not unreasonable at all, but at the same time be aware the scientific method may not be able to be applied properly to this type of phenomena yet (lake of proper instruments etc)
For example not long ago, 20 years, some scientists were saying that our solar system may be the only one with planets, but advances in instrumentation has verified that this is not correct.
Even more I just heard a talk with Dr. kaku (not sure how you spell his name) saying that just about everything that is being taught in school now about physics is outdated and incorrect, not long ago those were absolutes for science.
Quote:

Yes, this is the standard weak defense. I can predict a roll of one die 16% of the time. Do I have special powers? 



Bro that is just plane silly, I may self don't pretend to be a psychic, but I did have dreams with extreme detail that came to be real episodes in my life years later.
Your system of statistics cannot be applied on every type of paranormal phenomena.
Quote:

Not at all, There are in fact, specific triggers for falling in love, but that is for another thread. 



Is that a fact? or just a theory?
Because on the same token, brain researcher TDA lingo attributes that paranormal activity is triggered by the amygdales, which opens bioelectrical activity in the frontal lobes.

There is another problem in trying to research this type of activity (and this is my opinion from my own experience)
For example I had several oobe's, when I am out of my body, I don?t think the same way, like when I am in it, is a total different state of consciousness, like you will not go and  spy at people or use it to stel secrets etc, no different that when you are tripping on shrooms(I have done this my self) I prepare a set of things that I want to  accomplish during the trip, and when I am tripping I look at them as plane silly and stupid.
Don?t get me wrong swami I am a firm believer in science, But I now at the same time that the level of our science may not be a total absolute.
Chin chin.
:grin:
 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Adden]
    #1595940 - 05/31/03 10:05 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

For example I had several oobe's, when I am out of my body, I don?t think the same way, like when I am in it, is a total different state of consciousness, like you will not go and spy at people...
Perhaps OBE is a misnomer and it is merely another brain state. However, if one truly leaves their body, why would it be impossible to test for it?

Don?t get me wrong swami I am a firm believer in science, But I now at the same time that the level of our science may not be a total absolute.
Don't make the mistake of equating scientific knowledge with the scientific method of inquiry; they are not at all the same.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleOlgualion
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1595957 - 05/31/03 10:15 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Trying to prove these things goes hand in hand with finding a unified theory. If we do find one, you will know the answers.


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Study the past...
See the future...

Edited by Olgualion (05/31/03 10:17 AM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: LOBO]
    #1596215 - 05/31/03 12:26 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

From Grav in another relevant thread:

I believe in mind-reading because i've witnessed undeniable proof.

Yet, skeptics aren't allowed to witness this "undeniable" proof. Now why is that?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleOlgualion
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1596246 - 05/31/03 12:42 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yet, skeptics aren't allowed to witness this "undeniable" proof. Now why is that?




You just described the process of a skeptic turning into a believer!


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Study the past...
See the future...

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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1596304 - 05/31/03 01:09 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Swami if you want to test, JUST WAIT. Wait my friend for great evolution thats taking place, YOU'LL see and if you don't have your own "concidences" then you'll probibly start to see it on the news and such. Wait for at least one year, but i think you'll start to see stuff in the coming months.


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1596351 - 05/31/03 01:33 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps OBE is a misnomer and it is merely another brain state. However, if one truly leaves their body, why would it be impossible to test for it?
 



Perhaps it is another brain state I really don't know, I call it out of body because that what it really feels plus you get to see your body laying around (at least some visual confirmation that you are out), and I never said that will be impossible to prove it, maybe some could, what I was trying to convey to you is that in that state you have different priorities, is hard to explain if you haven?t had one, like trying to explain someone who has never tried mushrooms what the feeling is, you can?t you have to experience it.
I hope you get to experience one.  :wink: 


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: LOBO]
    #1596480 - 05/31/03 02:30 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

there seems to be two possibilities..

1. The thing which the person is skeptical of does not exist.
2. The skeptic has simply not witnessed the action for himself, nor has the action been recorded by a source that is reliable to the skeptic.



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Offlinelucid
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Grav]
    #1596609 - 05/31/03 03:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

3. Absolute reality does not exist and reality is subjective... hence the action exists for the believer and does not exist for the skeptic.
4. The skeptic does not exist and neither does the action, but only perception
of the observer (i.e. it's all in your head - reality, the world, this post etc... in fact this post is actually a projection of your mind... )


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: lucid]
    #1596946 - 05/31/03 07:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

3. Absolute reality does not exist and reality is subjective... hence the action exists for the believer and does not exist for the skeptic.

Which is why the number of spontaneous remissions of believers with cancer who go to Lourdes for healing is actually less than the statistical norm. So much for the awesome power of belief and subjective reality.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597151 - 05/31/03 10:16 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

>Which is why the number of spontaneous remissions of believers with cancer >who go to Lourdes for healing is actually less than the statistical norm
aha ! but it's only less in the sceptics reality... in the "believers" reality the
healing rate is 110 % !!
in fact, not only is their cancer cured, but they are endowed with health,
happiness and psychic powers ... all ya gotta do is BElieve !
of course, if this doesn't happen to u then it's all your fault, since u
just didn't believe enough ! there's some doubt lingering in your subconcious
mind that you're not even aware of ! Satan himself has instilled this in u !

I'm all too familiar with this system, it's amazing, no way around it.


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1597784 - 06/01/03 06:21 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"I could take some entheogens in a ceremony and spirit would tell me things. How could you possibly test that? "
--------------------------

I suppose that, although very unreliable in a strict scientific way, it could be perhaps tested by first testing the individual's credibility.. ie.. How truthfull is the individual vs. Do they lie often [ You could make secret tests to confirm it to yourself rather easily- although it will take several "tests" to feel some sort of answer ] .. and if you determine for yourself that they are an "honest Joe" type, then I guess you could simply believe them about the experience, and then, discuss it.. as descriptively as possible.

I totally understand that it is not a concrete, "Hard Copy" evidence type proof... and I also understand the it can ONLY be done with people whom you really get to know personally.. So the test, already, has limits to its usefullness.

However, in a world where the scientific community lacks the benefits from the invention of hyper sensitive equipment, avenues which generate some sort of proof tend to be very limited at this time.


.. As for ceremonies..

I have two Native friends. I find them to be really spiritual in nature. Ceremonies are fantastic !

It is really unfortunate that I have never witnessed any ceremonies, nor have I ever heard Drum Playing live... [ which is definately an opportunity that I will grab a hold of if ever presented ]

It's like Amazonian ceremonies.. I'm sure they are amazing also.




Interesting thing is though, I have noticed the occurence of synchronous events even before the very first alcoholic drink I ever had.. I have always felt it was a non-ceremonious way that the spirit communicated. What I'm saying is, I believe that TRUE messages are not limited to entheogenic ceremonies...



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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1597835 - 06/01/03 07:49 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"You could test it, but it would mean nothing - the answer/solution would be that you took entheogens and nothing paranormal happened. "

I dunno about this.

Here. Take this apple. Notice what color it is. Notice how it feels in your hand, the texture of the skin, the slight waxyness from the spray at the grocery store. Now take a bite. Feel the juice slide down your tongue. Feel how the tartness of the apple makes your mouth pucker up just a bit. Feel how crunchy the fruit is.

Self evident, right? These sensations are real, and I could venture that every single one of us has had exactly this set of sensations before.

NOW, if I were to explian in detail the neurophysiological reactions that allowed your brain to translate the sensory data from this apple into the direct and indirect sensations that you just experienced, would that make the experience any less real? I could literally say, "no, you didn't actually taste that apple, but a series of neurochemical switches were activated between your tongue and brain that allowed you to think that you were tasting it".

Yet we all know that we DO taste the apple. We know that it DOES crunch and that the juice IS tart and cool... does the fact that we can both qualify and quantify the physiological reaction that accompanies this sensory input make our experience any less real?

We could do the same thing (and have - although if you'll forgive me, I haven't taken the time to include any references) with extrasensory experiences under the influences of hallucinogens. By definition, the observer cannot be having the same experience as the... uh.. experiencee(?). But we can chart changes in neurochemistry, in brain wave activity, in levels of sensory awareness - all using scientifically accepted methodology. So why is it so difficult to say that these things are really happening, despite not being able to directly observer the phenomenon? Is it really that much of an anthropological leap to say that yes, because we can observe the same patterns with these experiences as those of universally understood experiences (the apple), they are actually experiencing something...

Again, language fails us...

But if you are unwilling to accept this as a possibility, then I would say to you that, because I cannot directly experience your experience of biting an apple, watching a sunset, or having an orgasm, then neither have you. You never experienced any of these things. You simply underwent some specific changes in your neurochemistry that opened a few and closed a few pathways in your brain.

Gern


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1597892 - 06/01/03 08:49 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know Bro. I could take some entheogens in a ceremony and spirit would tell me things. How could you possibly test that?

One test for that would be that your life was not "working" before the ceremony and shortly afterward, you got it together. The mushroom seemingly "speaks" to many here, yet they continue as before.

History is the litmus test for the usefulness of Native American ceremonies for protecting the tribes from the dangers of the real world. Not just from the onslaught of the White man, but also starvation; especially in the Northern tribes during the long, cold winters. The life expectancy of your average Native American, even before the advent of the Europeans, was quite short.

The same thing can be said of the mushroom ceremonies of Central America. What use is personal spiritual knowledge if your entire tribe / civilization is wiped out?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineGrav
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597904 - 06/01/03 08:59 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

What use is asking questions if you're going to just die eventually?

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Grav]
    #1597909 - 06/01/03 09:04 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

What use is asking questions if you're going to just die eventually?

Here is why it is important:

(Hold on someone is at the door... I'll be right back) "No!, Don't! *sounds of struggle* "Arrrrgggghhhhhhh!" *sound of running footsteps followed by silence*


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597914 - 06/01/03 09:07 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

3. Absolute reality does not exist and reality is subjective... hence the action exists for the believer and does not exist for the skeptic.

Which is why the number of spontaneous remissions of believers with cancer who go to Lourdes for healing is actually less than the statistical norm. So much for the awesome power of belief and subjective reality.





Link please.

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597919 - 06/01/03 09:16 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I don't know Bro. I could take some entheogens in a ceremony and spirit would tell me things. How could you possibly test that?

One test for that would be that your life was not "working" before the ceremony and shortly afterward, you got it together. The mushroom seemingly "speaks" to many here, yet they continue as before.

History is the litmus test for the usefulness of Native American ceremonies for protecting the tribes from the dangers of the real world. Not just from the onslaught of the White man, but also starvation; especially in the Northern tribes during the long, cold winters. The life expectancy of your average Native American, even before the advent of the Europeans, was quite short.

The same thing can be said of the mushroom ceremonies of Central America. What use is personal spiritual knowledge if your entire tribe / civilization is wiped out?




Those are good points but don't conflate "dangers of the real world" with longevity. What you are saying is that if Shamanism were real the people who practice should have a long life no matter what the circumstancs. People that live in a harsh environment die earlier. A better example would be the "Ghost Dance" that was supposed to make us invisible to the white man and his bullets. But, one disaster doesn't mean that all shamanism is fraudulent. It might have been that one of the factors were incorrect, that is all.

Consider that when a scientist is performing an experiment that if he gets one step wrong he may not be able to repeat the experiment and get the same result. Let's not hold shamanism to a higher standard than any other empirical investigation.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1597926 - 06/01/03 09:27 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, I do not have a link nor the several book titiles that I used to piece this together, but was in the public library years ago reading a book on Lourdes and I became quite curious. As not every pilgrim is interviewed for the reason they journey nor counted, all numbers are very rough estimates.

What I did, was to take number of claimed cancer cures (and accepted that ALL claims were valid!) divided by the estimated number of annual visitors then compared this to medical texts on the number of terminal cancers per million and the number of spontaneous remissions per annum.

Now I know that my conclusion may easily be torn apart, but I did the best I could with the limited data set presented and tried to be unbiased, yet could detect no correlation between a "miraculous" healing at Lourdes and a natural "spontaneous" healing.

"The Catholic Faith alone produces miracles, which are never seen among heretics. Plants of this sort cannot grow in a soil cursed by God; they can take root only in that Church where the True Faith is professed . . . God cannot sanction the performance of a miracle except in favor of the true religion; were He to permit it in support of error, He would deceive us."

St. Alphonsus Marie de Liguori, Bishop & Doctor of the Church


Ah, nothing quite like spiritual elitism!




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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/01/03 09:29 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597941 - 06/01/03 09:41 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

:grin:

All that proves is that the visitors didn't have enough faith.  :smirk:

Quote:

Ah, nothing quite like spiritual elitism!




Indeed.  You could even leave out the word 'spiritual' and it is still a great statement.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1597952 - 06/01/03 09:55 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

People that live in a harsh environment die earlier.
Yes, but they do not starve to death if the Great Spirit points out where the elk herds are hiding.

But, one disaster doesn't mean that all shamanism is fraudulent.
Ofr course not, but where is that verifiable one positive?

Let's not hold shamanism to a higher standard than any other empirical investigation.
How am I holding it to a higher standard? Science has afforded real-world results. I see none with shamanism. Shamanism abounds in today's Africa, yet disease and hunger are ripping the continent apart. Modern medicine and agriculture will do more for the people there than any native ceremony. Time to leg go of ancient superstitions and replace them with hard knowledge.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/01/03 10:18 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597973 - 06/01/03 10:13 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

:grin:

People that live in a harsh environment die earlier.

Yes, but they do not starve to death if the Great Spirit points out where the elk herds are hiding.

Link please.

But, one disaster doesn't mean that all shamanism is fraudulent.

Ofr course not, but where is that verifiable one positive?

I seem to have left the evidence in my other suit.

Let's not hold shamanism to a higher standard than any other empirical investigation.

How am I holding it to a higher standard? Science has afforded real-world results. I see none with shamanism. Shamanism abounds in today's Africa, yet disease and hunger are ripping the continent apart. Modern medicine and agriculture will do more for the people their than any native ceremony. Time to leg go of ancient superstitions and replace it with hard knowledge.

leg go?  Children's toys have very little to do with our discussion in my view.

There is a assumption here that all forms of Shamanism are the same and all produce the same result.  I can assure you that they are as different as the forms of any religion.  And, just because one religion is false it doesn't mean that all of them are.  Similarly, some forms of shamanism are consistent with reality and others are not.

   

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1599574 - 06/01/03 09:07 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Right on


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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Shroomism]
    #1599851 - 06/01/03 10:21 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

:wink:

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1600337 - 06/02/03 01:27 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

excuses excuses excuses... bah!

Ooo... rock candy!!!


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1600766 - 06/02/03 06:52 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

One test for that would be that your life was not "working" before the ceremony and shortly afterward, you got it together. The mushroom seemingly "speaks" to many here, yet they continue as before.




Sorry bro this test of yours make no sense, Just because the mushroom speaks does not guarantee change in the individual.
Just like if you take a course into how to make money, you will make money.
Some will use the info correctly and some will never use it, is up to the individual, not the information.
Also there is no guarantee that the info that you receive is correct also, we are talking about a phenomenon here.
And how can you make a judgment on how the members of this board were before and after the ethogen experience?
Are you saying that you are that wise to judge us, just from a few lines that you see in your computer or is it that you are using some paranormal ability to make those claims?
Bro just because the mushies don?t speak to you, don?t be sour about it.



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: LOBO]
    #1600809 - 06/02/03 07:38 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"paranormal activity in most of us is a rarity, most of the times can not be reproduce at will,"

Sounds like you're describing coincidences, not paranormal activity.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1600816 - 06/02/03 07:48 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"Interesting thing is though, I have noticed the occurence of synchronous events even before the very first alcoholic drink I ever had."

The human mind is a pattern recognition device. We often find congruencies and patterns where there are none, and we apply strange meaning to meaningless events. Sometimes there are coincidences, and sometimes we create them in our minds, but it would be foolish to just to the conclusion that they were put there by spirits meaning to communicate with us.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: LOBO]
    #1600995 - 06/02/03 09:26 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Just because the mushroom speaks does not guarantee change in the individual.
No change in a person who receives deep insight while in a highly receptive state does not say much about the message transmitted nor the divine transmitter.

Just like if you take a course into how to make money, you will make money.
Some will use the info correctly and some will never use it, is up to the individual, not the information.

MBA graduates make far more money than mere high school graduates, showing that the coursework does indeed have intrinsic value. What is the definable "something" that delineates trippers (voice hearers) from non-trippers other than a preference for tie-dyed clothing and Pink Floyd?

Also there is no guarantee that the info that you receive is correct also
If the info is incorrect, then it obviously isn't our higher self giving guidance, is it? More like imagination.

And how can you make a judgment on how the members of this board were before and after the ethogen experience?Are you saying that you are that wise to judge us, just from a few lines that you see in your computer or is it that you are using some paranormal ability to make those claims?
Lobo, not like you to put words in my mouth. Wasn't talking about my judgement, but those making the claim of spiritual insight from journeying, then saying how bad their life sucks.

Bro just because the mushies don?t speak to you, don?t be sour about it.
More useless personalized conjecture not worthy of your abilities...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1601186 - 06/02/03 11:24 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

No change in a person who receives deep insight while in a highly receptive state does not say much about the message transmitted nor the divine transmitter.

Incorrect. But it does say a hell of a lot about the transceiver.

MBA graduates make far more money than mere high school graduates, showing that the coursework does indeed have intrinsic value. What is the definable "something" that delineates trippers (voice hearers) from non-trippers other than a preference for tie-dyed clothing and Pink Floyd?

Your statement contains the key about what he was trying to convey:

coursework

Without the work you won't be an MBA, would you? There is nothing intrinsic in that.

If the info is incorrect, then it obviously isn't our higher self giving guidance, is it? More like imagination.

Imagination is a jump. It could be that some information may be correct and some incorrect.

Lobo, not like you to put words in my mouth. Wasn't talking about my judgement, but those making the claim of spiritual insight from journeying, then saying how bad their life sucks.

Lobo is right. You are making value judgments about other people's lives.

I always try to make others happy instead of judging them. I do not always succeed in this but it gives my life a better "quality", to borrow from Robert Pirsig. It also keeps me from being bitter about my own life's disappointments most of the time.



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1601235 - 06/02/03 11:43 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

No change in a person who receives deep insight while in a highly receptive state does not say much about the message transmitted nor the divine transmitter.
Incorrect. But it does say a hell of a lot about the transceiver.
Ah, so a school teacher (the transmitter) whose entire class fails basic reading skills can surely blame the students (the transceivers). Very convenient.

Lobo is right. You are making value judgments about other people's lives.
The person saying that their life sucks is the the one doing the judgement.

I always try to make others happy instead of judging them.
That is truly wonderful. What has this to do with testing someone's paranormal hypothesis (i.e. judging their claim to be true or false)? Perhaps my next post should be, "I think it is amazing that you can create psi-balls and move pencils with your mind." Cheerleading and encouragement instead of real debate is what we are now striving for.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1601294 - 06/02/03 12:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

If you have evidence the entire class failed present it. I am in the class and the last time I got my report card I was on the honor roll.

I am striving to learn and have peace. Others may do as they are so inclined as long as they don't go out of their way to disturb the peace of others because they don't have any.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1601306 - 06/02/03 12:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for seeing how far a tangent we can get from the topic...

Others may do as they are so inclined as long as they don't go out of their way to disturb the peace of others because they don't have any

because they don't have any

because they don't have any

because they don't have any


Is that NOT a judgement that you just preached about?

Did Jesus upset the moneychangers in the temple because he had no inner peace or maybe because the moneychangers needed to be woken up to erroneous thinking and acting?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1601332 - 06/02/03 12:22 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Ahem, you aren't Jesus if that is what you are referring to.

Nope, that isn't a judgment call. What I am saying if that a person doesn't have peace they shouldn't go around attempting to destroy the peace that others have because their life is miserable. Is there any other way to see it? Or are you suggesting that those who have no peace should go around provoking others?

The topic is paranormal experiences. I have passing grades.

I suppose it is back to "if I haven't had the experience then it can't possibly be real". I think it is better to say that if I haven't had the experience either (a) there is something wrong with me or (b) there is something wrong with the experience. That is the way of the True Skeptic.

The only thing worse than a unused mind is one that is completely shut.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1601364 - 06/02/03 12:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Ahem, you aren't Jesus if that is what you are referring to.
Nice display of illogic.

What I am saying if that a person doesn't have peace they shouldn't go around attempting to destroy the peace that others have because their life is miserable.
But it their life is full of peace and they are happy, then they can destroy other's peace at will like Jesus did.

Of course you overlook the fact that inner peace CANNOT be disrupted by another in the first place.

I suppose it is back to...
I know how tedious it is to stay on track.

"if I haven't had the experience then it can't possibly be real".
No need to incorrectly paraphrase me to make your point.

The only thing worse than a unused mind is one that is completely shut. 
There is no such thing as an unused mind nor one completely open nor completely shut. You very well know the dangers to all-or-nothing declarations.

Glad you are back in the trenches with sword in hand! :smile:


 


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/02/03 12:39 PM)

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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1601384 - 06/02/03 12:37 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Before i prove to you that it exists, first PROVE to me that it doesn't exist!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1601486 - 06/02/03 01:10 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Well I don't know about being "back in the trenches" but I have missed posting.  Moderating is such a drag. :frown:

Nice display of illogic.

Not at all, under the circumstances I found it to be quite logical.

But it their life is full of peace and they are happy, then they can destroy other's peace at will like Jesus did.

I didn't say that. 

Of course you overlook the fact that inner peace CANNOT be disrupted by another in the first place.

That isn't true either and you know it.  While we are responsible to a high degree to sustain our own peace none of us or most of us are unable to sustain it when certain circumstances enter our lives.  The death or loss of a loved one can destroy peace in a person's life no matter how advanced they may be.

I know how tedious it is to stay on track.

I'm quite on track Governor, how about you? :wink:

There is no such thing as an unused mind nor one completely open nor completely shut. You very well knwo the dangers to all-or-nothing declarations.

Quibbling over semantics is always a nice dodge.

Let's try to move this back to the topic at hand.

When I practice shamanism I sometimes learn Truths that are helpful to me in my daily life.  They are internal Truths which are brought to my consciousness for me to use or discard.  When I use them the quality of my life becomes better.  Others may use mushrooms or cacti and remain in a state of ignorance with lives that are in shambles.  That really has nothing to do with the efficaciousness of the entheogens in producing peace or internal Truths.
 

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1601495 - 06/02/03 01:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Moderating is such a drag.

I always suspected you had a thing for dressing in women's clothes...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1601515 - 06/02/03 01:18 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Others may use mushrooms or cacti and remain in a state of ignorance with lives that are in shambles. That really has nothing to do with the efficaciousness of the entheogens in producing peace or internal Truths.

If person A gets results from an entheogen and person B doesn't; how can you state that the entheogen was efficacious or even integral to the learning of a Truth?

The '60's Peace Movement died out because LSD did NOT produce Truths, but only the temporary illusion thereof.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1601835 - 06/02/03 03:18 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

If student A gets results from Mrs. Smith the English teacher and student B doesn't, does that say more about the teacher or the students?

As there are as many ways to use a book likewise there are many ways to use the entheogens. Some use drugs as an escape from a reality they find too harsh and others use a book to shore up a table leg that is too short. In the first case the user learns very little from the entheogen and in the second case the owner of the book learned nothing from it.

Don't blame the book or the entheogen for the lack of teaching thereof.

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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Phluck]
    #1602019 - 06/02/03 04:20 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

" "Interesting thing is though, I have noticed the occurence of synchronous events even before the very first alcoholic drink I ever had."

The human mind is a pattern recognition device. We often find congruencies and patterns where there are none, and we apply strange meaning to meaningless events. Sometimes there are coincidences, and sometimes we create them in our minds, but it would be foolish to just to the conclusion that they were put there by spirits meaning to communicate with us. "
------------------------------

I'll accept what you just said because you don't understand what I was really saying... perhaps it was my fault for not saying it right... I appologize, english, although I have a firm grip on it, is not my first language.

Let me define what I do not call synchronicity.... a coincidence. So let's define coincidence... I would be inclined to say, that a coincidence is something that happens that you perceive as being "out of the ordinary", yet at the same time, you can't establish a link to it. In that case, it becomes meaningless as you put it. I agree.

It would be like going to a french festival, not knowing french, while it was nearing lunch time... and all of a sudden, you see a McDonald's sign. What a coincidence, it was lunch time .. and McD'd happens to be your favorite !!! ... Did that help you with understanding french? Nope..

That is a coincidence... it has no apparent link.


I know this. So, as a result, I have developed a rule to differentiate. I call it: The Three Rule.. Cause good things come in threes... Anyways, I put an occurance into the category of synchronicity much more strongly if it happens in multiple blows rather than a single occurance.

Now, many times, it has happened, that the three rule was exceeded. I give you my word on that. When that happens, I take it more seriously.

I'll illustrate... I have made several rules which I use in the observation/ investigation of what I call, Virtual Intelligence. The rules I have made, I have cataloged, and use them to illustrate perceived interaction of events.

Just the other day, I swear this is a true story, five seperate events occured within the span of five minutes [ I think it was a smaller span, but I'll overestimate ]. The result of the interaction was astonishing !!! The rules have been followed ! I would have to say.. to a "T" [ I hope you understand that to a "T" means exactly ! ]... In this process, my first AND last name were spelled out ! And it pointed in a direction as well..

I call that a synchronicity ! An example of a virtual INTELLIGENCE ! And YES ! I am VERY inclined to say that !

The statistical numbers relating to that event would appear significant [ although, as Swami said.. after the event it is 1/1 ] .

I have only two possibilities to explain what I mean by that definition of synchronicity. 1.. There is something intelligent out there [ spirit or whatever ] ... 2 .. I did it.

Since I don't have a feeling of 100 % control, I am more inclined to put point 2 on the back burner at this time.

"IT" would appear, that it posesses a capacity of mind interaction. I assure you, that I am seriously intrigued by what unfolds before my eyes.



The human mind understands patterns... I agree with you. And it is exactly THAT which is being expressed and presented: VIA Patterns. How else could my primitive mind understand what is being said? IT is "speaking" the language in an intelligent manner.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


Edited by Deiymiyan (06/02/03 06:16 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1602034 - 06/02/03 04:26 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

If student A gets results from Mrs. Smith the English teacher and student B doesn't, does that say more about the teacher or the students?
Insufficient data. You know that I am not prone to jumping to conclusions.

there are many ways to use the entheogens
Your book & table analogy is not relevant. One reads the book, the other uses it as a structural support. Everyone that uses entheogens, such as cactus and mushrooms, ingests them in a similar manner.

Webster

efficacy: the power to affect a desired result.


If the desired result is not achieved then the entheogen cannot be considered efficacious.

Don't blame the book or the entheogen for the lack of teaching thereof.
OK, I will blame the 5,000,000 hippies who failed to build a more enlightened society rather than the "chemical teacher".


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1602214 - 06/02/03 05:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If student A gets results from Mrs. Smith the English teacher and student B doesn't, does that say more about the teacher or the students?
Insufficient data. You know that I am not prone to jumping to conclusions.

there are many ways to use the entheogens
Your book & table analogy is not relevant. One reads the book, the other uses it as a structural support. Everyone that uses entheogens, such as cactus and mushrooms, ingests them in a similar manner.

Webster

efficacy: the power to affect a desired result.


If the desired result is not achieved then the entheogen cannot be considered efficacious.

Don't blame the book or the entheogen for the lack of teaching thereof.
OK, I will blame the 5,000,000 hippies who failed to build a more enlightened society rather than the "chemical teacher". 




Hey Swam, the example I gave you was parallel to yours in every detail.  So don't tell me you don't "jump to conclusions".

Your book & table analogy is not relevant. One reads the book, the other uses it as a structural support. Everyone that uses entheogens, such as cactus and mushrooms, ingests them in a similar manner.

You are picking at nits.  So merely change the analogy to make it fit.  Student A reads an English text under the tutelage of Mrs. Smith the English teacher.  He learns a lot and later becomes a famous author.  Student B also reads the English text under the tutelage of Mrs. Smith the English teacher, and flunks out of school and becomes a garage mechanic's helper.

So you want to blame the book?  Or the Teacher?

Whoever said that hippies were capable of spiritual enlightenment?

Are you saying that if the mushroom or other entheogen isn't a "magic pill" that instantly transforms everyone who takes it into a spiritual guru then it isn't any tool at all?

Has it ever occurred to you that you need a good teacher and a good student in order to produce the effect you are looking for?

Or are you the bad student who blames the Teacher for not being able to learn the lesson? :wink: 

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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1602320 - 06/02/03 06:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"Don't blame the book or the entheogen for the lack of teaching thereof.
OK, I will blame the 5,000,000 hippies who failed to build a more enlightened society rather than the "chemical teacher". "
--------------------------

I think it's time for comic relief.... Sooooo... get out yer Can-O-Laughs......


You can lead a horse to water, but .......



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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InvisiblePhalanxx
Stranger
Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 24
Loc: Europe
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1602398 - 06/02/03 06:27 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Swami,
I take it that you don't believe in paranormal events. Fair enough. You don't seem to believe in spiritual insights, or their usefulness if they exist. You don't seem to believe in the usefulness of entheogens for spiritual development. You seem either determined to disprove paranormal events, or determined to find proof.

Do you eat mushrooms yourself? If you do, why? What are your own spiritual beliefs? Do you have any? Are you a nihilist? Are you James Randi? You seem either keen to find some spirituality, or keen to insult the spirituality of others.

You will not find proof for paranormal activity because you are a chronic skeptic. I'm sure you will flame my ass with your cutting logic. I don't care. I have my own spirituality. I gained it by giving up the kind of attitude that you have, and being open-minded (not gullible).

Edited by Leprachaun (06/02/03 06:46 PM)

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1602544 - 06/02/03 07:21 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)


The Mega Mr.M versus Super Swami - Now playing.

*munches on popcorn with eyes wide open*  :ooo:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Murex]
    #1602681 - 06/02/03 07:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

This thread is AWSOME !
where do they make people like the ones here at the Shroomery ?
all people talk about at work is banal small talk...
I am Jack's Inflated Ego :grin:
Seriously though, this place is wonderful... thanks to everyone
for makin it happen 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1603222 - 06/02/03 10:53 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

OK, I will blame the 5,000,000 hippies who failed to build a more enlightened society rather than the "chemical teacher".

who says they failed?

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1603239 - 06/02/03 10:58 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

:laugh: !


--------------------
Namaste.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Phalanxx]
    #1603517 - 06/03/03 01:39 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

...or keen to insult the spirituality of others
What insult? I never mean harm to anyone. Destroying a faulty idea is hardly harm to a person.

You will not find proof for paranormal activity because you are a chronic
skeptic.

Her is another who comes to conclusion about me while knowing NOTHING of what I have or have not done, lived or researched. I will not find proof simply because there isn't any, not because of my persona nor history.

I'm sure you will flame my ass with your cutting logic.
I flame no person on here. Believe it or not, I care for others here and do not try to make anyone feel small. I merely want someone to admit they were mistaken or to demonstrate their advanced knowledge and technique. Yet, I get neither. What I do get is personal attack or psychoanalysis or a lame excuse about why their pet power (which they previously claimed to be repeatable) can no longer be repeatable in the presence of a non-gullible audience.

Questioning begets anger. Now why is that?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1603523 - 06/03/03 01:46 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

who says they failed?

Geez, let me think here. Today we have a more addicted (read obese, TV watching, smoking, alcoholic) society than has ever existed; fully backing a Warlord (Bush) in rationalized violence that absolutely would not have been tolerated by your peace-loving, back-to-the-land, acid-taking hippie. Alas, the dream of love and cooperation died in a quiet, marijuana-filled dream. Very sad.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1603536 - 06/03/03 01:52 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

:frown: *insert tears here* 


--------------------
Namaste.

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Offlinespiritshaper
^_^

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1603583 - 06/03/03 02:29 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Swami, if you're really interested in this subject i would suggest that you read A Buddhist Bible (ISBN: 0807059110). Then take the knowledge you aquired from the book and apply it to your life for a few years. After you become experienced and well versed in the art of perfect wisdom you should then be able to resume your quest and find the awnsers you seen from within. One cannot give you the knowledge you seek, you must find it yourself, it is that simple. There is no fast or instant way to gain perfect understanding of the metaphysical world, you will not find the information you seek by drilling the members of the spirituality and philosophy forum with questions and awnsers that will never produce any fruit for you.

hopefully i have shed some light upon the path that you walk, i hope you don't trip with the questions you ask playing on your head or you will wander into dangerous territory.


laterz,
Spiritshaper


--------------------
----------------------------------

Brilliant ideas, like truffles, are rare, and only possible, given special conditions.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1603594 - 06/03/03 02:35 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

my friends light switch to his mercedes broke about a week or two ago.. he has been using pliars (sp?) to turn his lights on and off. so tonight i go over to his house and he comes home... and hes trying to turn his lights off... and me "mr fixet" tries to find something that will work. i look for tools around his house... which i know pretty well. (this is important.. so remember). so im looking around his house trying to find something to fit.. i use a highlighter cap... scratch that... it doesnt work... and i want to fix it! i know i can... i just have to find the right tool. so with other mis haps i go and try to find something... so i look out in the shed and i know there is probably nothing in there cause i know his place real well.

and so as im going into the shed... i have one single "hypnogic thought". its the picture of one of the tools he has... ive used it before and it has a hollowed out bottom so you can screw it on to the handle... but then i think " urekia! i have found the key to turn off his lights". but i know its not in the shed (okay remember?) so i still look through the shed doubting the image i have of the key.. its a particular size. and it couldnt have been fixed with the highlighter cap i found... so sure enough i go looking for it, half drunk. im looking around. i find the image of the tool in my memory from when i went into the shed... sure enough i take it to his car... and Voualah it works.

now the real question. why would i think of this. you are probably going to think im going to use a scape goat for something paranormal or something you seek to define and understand but cant quite come to the realization to... which im assuming is why you created this topic. but the truth... yes still lays un answered.

but the facts are obvious... how would my mind know... and be able to recall the specification of the size of the object. and this i wish to make clear... we have the ability to do what we will if we let ourselves. if we open ourselves up... we can "find the key". to the door way of truth? i dont know.

why would i have that vision pop into my head like i do...

is this a discovery of something very unique in human understanding? or the ability to recall spacial diferntiations of objects applied to some scenario?

regardless! i just want to make a playing field here. where we from both sides can merge... cause i believe i see your side... and i see the side of others. of which you say that people who are questioned retaliate with anger.

one side fuels the fire with anger by questioning... the other side fuels the fire with skepticism.... there is nothing to be skeptical about my occurance.

i gave the facts... what happened happened. and i saw the image before i knew what was going to happen. i thought when i was in the shed that that image may be the key... its size was simmilar...
but where i draw the median is where we cross... from "inspired visions" to great provable human potential...

so i think anyway.. i dont know. i just wanted to post and see how some might react to that.


--------------------
What?

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: spiritshaper]
    #1603902 - 06/03/03 08:23 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

you will not find the information you seek by drilling the members of the spirituality and philosophy forum with questions and awnsers that will never produce any fruit for you.

One will never learn anything by asking questions? That is an incredible statement. Will one learn more by accepting everything stated as fact?

More likely they will produce no fruit because there is none.

In your mind, what is the purpose of a debating board if not to debate?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1604196 - 06/03/03 10:26 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

pzowned. (pizza hut)


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Offlinespiritshaper
^_^

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: nubious]
    #1604308 - 06/03/03 11:09 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

i feel for you swami, maybe next life you'll get it.

your powers of picking and choosing are amazing, i'll reitterate:
seriously, if you're this interested in the subject buy that book and at least read up to diamond sutra. After that you should have a deepened understanding and be able to find the awnsers for yourself.

Turn down the negative and turn up the positive


--------------------
----------------------------------

Brilliant ideas, like truffles, are rare, and only possible, given special conditions.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: spiritshaper]
    #1604322 - 06/03/03 11:18 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

maybe next life you'll get it.

What exactly might I get?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1604339 - 06/03/03 11:27 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

you might win a free dvd player... then again... maybe not. you may get enlightenment... you may get sttabbed. you might get another chance! you might get a dance.


--------------------
What?

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1604435 - 06/03/03 11:53 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

You might not have to deal with any excuses?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1605144 - 06/03/03 02:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, so swami, is going down the road and has a quick sift in conscieousness, and has an image of a car neary hitting him, with an old lady driving. Did i get it right swami? (the -avioding the car crash premonition?-)

What do you think of having such a "hallucination"? You say your putting it in the catagory of "not enough evidence". Well then you must see it as a some sort of halluicinosis or some shit? What do you think of having an image displayed before your eyes in motion and then disappear, when at least a couple seconds later the motioned image that came to you, HAPPENED! I mean not to many people will dought that it wasn't a paranomal experience. Are you waiting for some sort of telekinesis to be displayed in front of you to see that this kind of stuff is possible.

I think that swami just doesn't want to see the possiblilty, and refuses to see. I understand skepticizm, but i solved that with psiballs.

_______________________________________________________________

However i think ive gone a little crazy though with it, i subconceiously espically when im fucked up, think i can, but i put no conceious thought into it. Ill pick up the phone to talk to my aunt, and then i automaticly assume i know what she's going to bitch about. Im wrong most of the time, and i sit back and say, "Why did i do that?" Its like a have a subconsceious reaction to read a mind, BUT I CAN'T READ MINDS, AND NOR DO I REALLY CARE TOO! Ive gone crazy? :blush: :grin:

(ah, screw spelling, and why doesn't my spell check work? :mad:)


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1605203 - 06/03/03 03:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

>Ive gone crazy
you've "lost your psiballs" so to speak :grin: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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InvisiblePhalanxx
Stranger
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1605744 - 06/03/03 05:46 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"I will not find proof simply because there isn't any."

As I said, you are a chronic skeptic. You complain about being "psycoanalysed", yet you don't mind telling people they have "faulty ideas" and are deluded. I think what irritates people most is your closed-mindedness. You aren't even open to the POSSIBILITY of paranormal activity.

I don't have any paranormal powers and I don't know anyone who does. I am a skeptic too. I have had a few strange things happen to me, but nothing I would consider irrefutable proof of paranormal activity. Yet I am open-minded that the paranormal MAY exist.

Let's say spirits exist in a form beyond the scope of detection by scientific instruments. How could one ever "prove" their existence if one believed that they DID exist?

Let's say someone contacted you and "proved" to you that they had paranormal powers, and you made your findings public. Can you imagine the explosion of quackery that would follow on the back of that, the same quackery you so eagerly like to disprove, on top of the mountains of quackery already in existence? That could be a reason why people with paranormal powers (if they exist) choose to keep their powers to themselves, out of a sense of responsibility. Also, teaching how to exert paranormal powers publicly would presumably be quite dangerous too. Imagine if the skills fell into the wrong hands. Imagine if Hitler had somehow learned the power of telepathy.

In traditional cultures, people are usually given paranormal powers by spirits. They are usually on condition that the person keeps the power relatively secret, and only uses it out of dire necessity. Using these powers to prove to a hardened skeptic in a laboratory that the paranormal exists is hardly dire necessity.

I am quite sure (as are you) that nobody will take up your challenge, or succeed if they do. I doubt if genuine shamans surf the web much. I fully understand your position. You seem to have done a lot of research into the paranormal and failed to find any irrefutable evidence of its existence. Me too.

Since your search on this thread is virtually futile, why don't you educate us all about your more enlightened way of thinking. How much effort, time and money have you devoted to searching for proof of the paranormal? Have you come across any cases you were quite hopeful about at first? Are you aware of any cases at the moment that have you interested? Are there any cases that ALMOST convinced you?

Let me give you a "Leprachaun Challenge". Would you give permission to anyone who reads this message to enter your house in disembodied form, or send other spirits on their behalf, to pull a few minor stunts that may convince you of the existence of the paranormal?  If you feel comfortable about this, please say yes. You don't believe in the paranormal, so I'm sure you will confidently leap at the challenge. :wink: 

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InvisibleSwami
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Posts: 15,413
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Phalanxx]
    #1606062 - 06/03/03 07:29 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

You aren't even open to the POSSIBILITY of paranormal activity.
I bend over backwards here being willing to test any abilities, but no one brings the goods. Being close-minded would be demonstrated by an unwillingness to even check things out. Try to see the difference.

Let's say spirits exist in a form beyond the scope of detection ...
If it cannot be detected directly or indirectly, then how can one even knowingly say that it exists?

Are there any cases that ALMOST convinced you?
Yes, mostly from personal experience. While these things seemed amazing, I also recognize the power of self-deception or the ability to misinterpret events.

Let me give you a "Leprachaun Challenge". Would you give permission to anyone who reads this message to enter your house in disembodied form, or send other spirits on their behalf, to pull a few minor stunts that may convince you of the existence of the paranormal? If you feel comfortable about this, please say yes.
Yes, I already have. Even invited people to cast a spell on me. Go for it people. Knock a vase or two over. Make red blotches appear on my skin.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1606177 - 06/03/03 08:25 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

>Even invited people to cast a spell on me
bubble bubble toil and trouble...
a hex upon thee o Swami...
may ye become a devout believer, bereft of reason :grin:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1606243 - 06/03/03 08:55 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Goodbye Brother

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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: lucid]
    #1606278 - 06/03/03 09:10 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

yep :grin:


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Offlinespiritshaper
^_^

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1606356 - 06/03/03 09:40 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

swami, while i was at work today i was doing some careful contemplation of the views you've presented and have come to a conclusion.

you're an ok guy and i feel you've shown exceptional socological and psycological skills. the way you analize and deconstruct faulty statements  consistantly without faltering is amazing. you're relpys to the statements provided to you are very intelligent considering the information you have to work with is each persons view on life. you don't really waver too much from what they're saying to you (ie: you're not changing the subject or including information thats not relevant to the matters at hand). this leads me to beleive that you're pretty advanced spiritually and this is either some type of test, game, or a way for you to sucessfully invoke spiritual debate in others.

at first i took your posts literally, thinking that you were an intelligent person that felt the need to destroy others beleifs as a way to make yourself feel better and affirm your "superior intelligence". i see i was wrong there.


my understanding is that you created this topic to strengthen others spiritual beleifs by putting them to the test, i do not condone nor approve of this method but it does get results as well as provide you with a little information of the beleifs and thought structures of the people you talk to on a daily basis in here.




did i hit the nail on the head or am i completely off base, do i get a cookie? :laugh:


Edit: added a comma to sentance.


--------------------
----------------------------------

Brilliant ideas, like truffles, are rare, and only possible, given special conditions.


Edited by spiritshaper (06/06/03 02:10 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: spiritshaper]
    #1606363 - 06/03/03 09:43 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

First impressions are always........ shit, I forget.

:grin:

accurate 

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1606366 - 06/03/03 09:44 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Alright Swami, I'll be seeing you astrally tonight. Friends in tow.


--------------------

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Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Shroomism]
    #1606387 - 06/03/03 09:53 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

:wink:

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Sclorch]
    #1606476 - 06/03/03 10:22 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

that would be nice... then maybe i could see the pure truth.. and not have to beat around the bush. if your talking to an end... i dont know of it


--------------------
What?

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1606521 - 06/03/03 10:41 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)


The fact is that there is no proof that anything paranormal or metaphysical exists. I don't think anyone here could really argue that. I know you know this Swami.

BUT, that doesn'tmean that it doesn't exist! We might be able to proove this stuff in the future, but now we can't do a whole lot of reasearch for this stuff. Reasearch costs money, and there are more 'important' things to reasearch than the paranormal or the metaphysical.

:tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Shroomism]
    #1606545 - 06/03/03 10:48 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Alright Swami, I'll be seeing you astrally tonight. Friends in tow.

How will I recognize you? There is going to be a swarm here tonight. Does your astral body also have the same tatoo as your physical body?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Murex]
    #1606558 - 06/03/03 10:53 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Reasearch costs money, and there are more 'important' things to reasearch than the paranormal or the metaphysical.

Not so little brother. Research in this field goes back hundreds of years. People research what is most important to them. Thus far the data is inconclusive. The best out there is the Princeton PK studies which show some deviation from chance, but which may be explainable through statistical anomoly or researcher bias. Second best is the Stanford prayer study on heart disease and recovery which was not tighly controlled and had a relatively small sample size.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/04/03 08:18 AM)

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1606765 - 06/04/03 12:28 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Well then perhaps we need to research this area much more heavily and openly than we are currently doing.

My astral body has not the same tattoo, but you will recognize me...I'll tell you telepathically  :wink:.. Also have been noted as emitting a white light and carrying a bright purple aura


--------------------

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Offlinethestringphish
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Shroomism]
    #1607111 - 06/04/03 03:08 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

all this is presuming scientific testing can draw significant conclusions about paranormal activity. I belive most paranormal activity goes beyond the boundries of science, and is therfore, out of it's reach.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome

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InvisiblePhalanxx
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Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1607158 - 06/04/03 03:57 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Swami,
  I'm glad to hear that you ARE open-minded to some degree. That's a start. Keep in mind that chronic skepticism can result in self-deception too.

  You didn't answer my question about if you had ever taken any psychedelic drugs, so I presume you have not. Many, if not most, people here developed their spirituality by using mushrooms and lsd. Maybe trying them out would soften your  attitude a bit, and make you more optimistic about finding what you seek. They are worthy of investigation if you have not done so.

  Spirituality is ripe for self-delusion, and I'm glad you are here to keep people grounded and balance things out. Spiritual experiences are as insubstantial as dreams and impossible to prove. If I said I saw a ghost, how could I prove it to you? If a ghost spoke to me, how could I prove it? You could say how could I prove it to myself, that I wasn't deluded by mushrooms. Good point. It cannot be proved either way. All one can do is be open-minded to both possibilities.

  Good luck with finding your "proof". And thanks for the permission. If I ever acquire paranormal powers, your's will be the first house I will visit, after Pamela Anderson's. :grin: 

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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: spiritshaper]
    #1607655 - 06/04/03 11:05 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Actually man you replying to swami, not me (johnnyfive)

Swami, ill find your evidence and then start a post, and my evidence will be the research into the stargate program! Which i have no time to do now.


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1607710 - 06/04/03 11:27 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Hmmm....

Watching SG-1 on the Sci Fi channel doesn't count though, okay?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Sclorch]
    #1607961 - 06/04/03 12:57 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

nice one sclorch, no the stargate program is actually the remote viewing project.

swami says that it was trashed due to it not working and i say that YES IT WAS TRASHED but not because it didn't work, but because they were expanding operations!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1607970 - 06/04/03 01:01 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

...and Project BlueBook was disbanded; not because there was no evidence of extra-terrestrial visitation, but because...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinespiritshaper
^_^

Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 216
Loc: Lost in Space
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1609656 - 06/04/03 10:43 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

swami,

give me some feedback on my last post man, don't leave me hangin', i know you read it =P

when i made that post i figured it would be best if i tried to think of you in a positive light rather than a negative one. if i cast you in a negative light that wouldn't be very productive and would only cause negative things to happen as a result.

one must first understand the natural flow of life before one can advance any further in a spiritual sense.

laterz,
Spiritshaper


--------------------
----------------------------------

Brilliant ideas, like truffles, are rare, and only possible, given special conditions.


Edited by spiritshaper (06/05/03 12:32 AM)

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