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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956171 - 10/13/02 03:05 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

By the fact that you are rplying to this thread you have the belief that someone will understand the language you are speaking. You believe that you are actually typing the words on your screen.

This is what I was saying......for our frame of reference, it is impossible to go about your daily life without holding onto some beliefs or truths. Some things just simply have to be taken for granted or nothing will be possible. As I said...this doesn't mean that these things are universal truths, and if new data comes in that contradicts the current belief then you modify it.

As much as some of us hate to admit it or give into it.....we must give into some things at some point. For our frame of reference it makes sense to believe in the laws of thermodynamics. It makes sense to believe in gravity.

Does this make sense :grin: 


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #956338 - 10/13/02 04:57 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Does this make sense?

I believe it does.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956576 - 10/13/02 09:44 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

> Truth is everything that exists. It is seeing and aknowledging everything. It is the trees and you
> and me and the sky and everything else.

Interesting definition.

> But our minds seem to distort this truth by comparing everything we see and experience with
> what we have seen and experienced in the past, and then extracting beliefs from these
> experiences.

The past can be a source of wisdom concerning truth. Are you on mushrooms right now? If not, do you discount all which you have experienced on mushrooms due to the experience being in the past? Memory is faulty, but it is often all we have. The past exists in memories, but memories can be distorted in interpretation until the interpretation replaces the memory.

> Then we experience and see things relative to our beliefs, and we dont see things as they are,
> we see them as either confirming or denying our beliefs.

How else are we supposed to ensure that we haven't fallen into delusional traps? Of course, the 'experience' which one is evaluating the beliefs against is often invented by the mind for the sole purpose of proving the beliefs. It's good at pulling patterns out of random data. I find dextromethorphan to be perfect for this purpose. It makes me immune to fear/pain and other animal nonsense, detaches me from my previous beliefs, and sharpens my long-term memory to a superhuman level.

> So the alternative to judging everything according to our beliefs is to pay attention to
> everything with an open mind and to use your intelligence in every situation instead of tuning to
> your beliefs for guidence. Dont turn to the past for answers, treat every moment and decision
> as new, because they always are new.

I see what you mean now. One must not trust one's past intelligence too much. One has more data now, so one can better evaluate. Most beliefs have too much inertia. Some should be hard to change (such as the one you stated in this post) to ensure that nothing else slips by and gets embedded. The clean-up never really ends, though. Many of us are born mad and continue to be so until, out of necessity, we find the tools to cure ourselves and find that we can become even more than those who are born whole (or anywhere near it) and are never driven to change can ever be.


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956585 - 10/13/02 10:08 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

> Krishnamurti once said that belief and disbelief are the same thing.

In the same manner that Linux and Windows are the same thing, yes. The same applies to all things. They are all the same in their is-ness.

> He said thatt believing god exists and believing god doesnt exist is the same thing.

"Believing god doesn't exist" or "Not believing that God exists"? If it's the former, they are two beliefs. If it's the latter, then yes, on the highest levels, opposites become the same.

> They are two different sides of the same coin.

Acknowledgement, right?

> He says that belief is not necesary at all in life, and all belief does is condition your mind and
> prevent you from seing 'what is', which is truth.

He appears to have been using belief in a different sense than we do. Even when these things are translated by people who understand them, they really should define the sense in which they use terms like 'belief'. If he truthfully represents something as truth, he believes it, according to our reflexive definition of belief. All communication has the same problem.

The true student of these things creates his own philosophy out of bits and pieces, some given by others and others of his own creation, connecting them and creating something adapted for his mind out of the rich texture of material in which he is immersed. There's no harm in stealing parts of someone's ideas and outright contradicting the rest. Even if one is misunderstanding the concept, it's still a valid interpretation, whether it was thought of by Buddha or some guy posting on the Shroomery. Unless it's self-created (not excluding the guidance of others in the creation-process), it's just another belief. Maybe this is the meaning of that quote?

Amphetamine makes for a interesting ally. It is very helpful in taking the things discovered in other states and applying them into everyday life. I have a real (as much as ADD is) prescription and enough self-discipline to only get a new one once a month, so please don't start speed-bashing like everyone in alt.drugs.psychedelics does.


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956589 - 10/13/02 10:13 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

>> "But, if you don't have 'belief', you disbelieve. There's nothing in between."

> This is a common misconception.

Not entirely. Consider these 3 statements.

"There is a God."
"There is not a God."
"I don't know whether there's a God or not, so I will remain open to all possibilities, accepting religious and atheistic revelations at equal face value."

Depending on our usage of "belief", it may only be applying to the first two. With another meaning, it applies to all 3. The "meanings" are different words which happen to posess the same combination of letters. Words are fuzzy anyways, but this feels clear-cut enough. Someone find a loophole in it to prove they're the same thing.


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956605 - 10/13/02 10:28 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

> We humans are so used to thinking that we must take a postition on everything. nothing good
> has ever come from a belief, so what is the point? Isnt it much more practical to use your
> intelligence instead of a belief in every situation?

Just saw this. Yes, dividing things by 'right' and 'wrong' is stupid. They require fuzzy classification by the level of confidence one holds in them, and actions should be similarly classified by levels of required confidence, with a third multi-layered layer of meta-hacks to make the whole thing operate. The part of my brain which deals with this kind of logical abstraction is very advanced (and the Adderall doesn't hurt any), to the point where my brain runs it natively. No, I can't write my brain in C++. So many operators which are inexpressable. I have glimpsed my brain's assembly language indeed, and it is very cool. I suspect the 'brain damage' seen in DXM users is actually a sign of their minds speaking this God-code instead of English, making vocal communication very difficult. It's possible to get it across in writing, but rarely if ever in speech. I have to write like this to communicate it. If I talked this much to a person, that person would likely become very angry at me for "monopolizing" the wholly inadequate communications bandwidth. So the dex-head who is bad at writing appears to be a disabled zombie.


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956606 - 10/13/02 10:32 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

>> "Everything that exists is a sign from something that is truth."
> I dont quite understand. Would you mind explaining further please?

Truth exists in mind, since no-truth is randomness. Therefore, the Universe appears to have mind. Scratch that. The mind appears to have Universe.


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #956616 - 10/13/02 10:53 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)


> By the fact that you are rplying to this thread you have the belief that someone will understand
> the language you are speaking. You believe that you are actually typing the words on your
> screen.

Nope, I don't believe with 100% certainty that someone's going to understand this. I'm reasonably confident, though, and writing this is enjoyable in itself. "I am typing these words on the screen" is a meta-label for "the activity which I am doing". Even if I'm God on God-Acid and this is some sort of strange hyper-psychedelic sexual play with the Goddess, that is for now the definition of "typing these words on the screen".

> This is what I was saying......for our frame of reference, it is impossible to go about your daily life without holding onto some beliefs or truths.

Not if you're a hacker and know some of the underlying language. Abolute truth/untruth is a model. I make models for fun. Let's make some better ones.

> Some things just simply have to be taken for granted or nothing will be possible.

So the basis is action? This makes sense. Why not redesign the structure as a servant instead of a master, helping one act based on the best possible conclusions instead of the most recent one? It takes lots of evaluation to keep it debugged. That's what drugs are for.

> As I said...this doesn't mean that these things are universal truths, and if new data comes in that
> contradicts the current belief then you modify it.

"There is no universel truth." "There is no ultimate reality". I said that while "Enlightened" (I said that too) on shrooms+DXM. There are only working models, made for the joy of making and the good of the entire system.

> As much as some of us hate to admit it or give into it.....we must give into some things at some
> point. For our frame of reference it makes sense to believe in the laws of thermodynamics. It
> makes sense to believe in gravity.

I wish I was learned in physics (I may be one day). Assuming you aren't, I would ask you to define your model of gravity which you "believe", and I would explain how science's current *theory* of gravity (which describes something I haven't learned yet and labels it with 'gravity') is nothing like your interpretation (which I again assume to be incorrect for the purposes of this discussion). Then I would ask you whether it was a good idea to label your interpretation of gravity as a universal law instead of as a theory like the scientists who discover these things do. You may label it by observable evidence, which has a higher level of truth. That's OK, but then you just believe in the evidence. There are always exceptions. You're probably a physicist though.

Does this make sense? I can't understand this and apply it all the time so I have to apply it to potential actions while in a state during which I can understand it and then conditionally 'believe' the actions while in other states of consciousness. When I am angry I want to beat every person who I see to death with a metal pipe. I don't trust my brain as much while in that state, and start robot-executing programs to escape from it (such as drug use, or setting my arm on fire). The robot (who is about as conscious as most monkeys at this point) starts chilling out as soon as the skin gets singed a little. One must trust one's insights and view "everyday" consciousness as a enemy who must be disabled so that he cannot harm one.


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Anonymous

Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: xganon]
    #957080 - 10/13/02 03:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Whatever else can be said your posts make interesting reading.

Welcome, to S&P&S.

Please state your major philosophic influences for the record.

I'll go put on some coffee. :smile:

Cheers,


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InvisibleMetasyn
one

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 239
Loc: PNW
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: ]
    #958106 - 10/13/02 11:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I second that.  :smile:

There seems way too much to reply too within this topic, although I'm interested in all of it... espcially the brain's assembly language part.  Can you explain anything else about this?


Edited by Metasyn (10/13/02 11:02 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Metasyn]
    #958611 - 10/14/02 01:39 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Evidently xganon has bigger fish to fry. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: ]
    #960581 - 10/14/02 08:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

> Evidently xganon has bigger fish to fry.
Like crashing, sleep, work, and cannabis?

I can identiy some philosophical influences, just not name them.

If responding to long posts is difficult, try pasting the post into the form like I do and breaking it up, responding to it one part at a time.


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