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Offlinechemkid
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Believing in nothing becomes a belief.
    #953184 - 10/11/02 08:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

It seems lately that many of the threads I have read contain statements that read
"I believe in nothing". Many say that because everything is subjective then real truth is forever elusive. My problem with this is that many become dogmatic about sticking to the ---not believing in anything--- So now, in a sense you are closed off to possibilities that truth can be found. I am not saying it can be found but I am also not saying it can't.  The best method through this that I have heard actually came from our mod. Mr. Mushrooms......(loosely quoted) "I am ready and willing to dump everything I believe if new data comes in that makes it necessary". I really like this quote because I find that sometimes I hold rigidly to some things that I believe.

Basically, believing in nothing is fine if you are open to believing in something.


(or something like that :wink:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #953324 - 10/11/02 09:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I wasn't aware of any nihilists in this forum. Hmm....


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Sclorch]
    #953342 - 10/11/02 09:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I have one friend who is damn close to being a nihilist (at least he used to talk about it a lot).  He doesn't believe in anything and it doesn't bother him that he doesn't care.  :smile:  I wish I could get him to visit this this board (S&P and Political).  He would add greatly to the discussions on these topics.  Sadly I am all you have out of my immediate circle of wierdos.  LOL   


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Sclorch]
    #953624 - 10/11/02 11:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

nihilism is so 90's


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #953640 - 10/11/02 11:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Whenever I start posting somewhere I pick a random post and respond to it. This is the last thing I wrote in this message.

> It seems lately that many of the threads I have read contain statements that read
> "I believe in nothing".

I'm still mostly a dex-head (despite my last shroom trip) so there'll probably be enough talk about nothing if I stick around here.

> Many say that because everything is subjective then real truth is forever elusive.

Is there any such thing as "real truth"? It seems to be a naive fantasy of our cognitive systems. Dispelling the fantasy necessitates action. One who wishes to die still keeps living for long enough to end life. The upper layers of the mind realize something, but they must apply it to lower levels.

> My problem with this is that many become dogmatic about sticking to the ---not believing in anything---

What do you mean by "dogmatic"? Are they attacking others whenever they say the word 'is'? Or are they simply trying to change the way their minds behave forcibly?

> So now, in a sense you are closed off to possibilities that truth can be found.

Mental states have inertia, and the breaking of this intertia often requires force in the opposite direction.

> I am not saying it can be found but I am also not saying it can't.

"Truth" implies encapsulation in the human logic system, which does not appear to be capable of encapsulating the Universe. Unless you're a alien or diety using the word in a different sense, of course.

> "I am ready and willing to dump everything I believe if new data comes in that makes it
> necessary". I really like this quote because I find that sometimes I hold rigidly to some things
> that I believe.

"Nothing is true. Everything is permissible.". Or, sometimes "Nothing is real.". A good mantra. That quote isn't broad enough. "All models subject to revision, especially if marked otherwise".

> Basically, believing in nothing is fine if you are open to believing in something.

Believing isn't very important though. It seems best to seperate ideas and assignments into piles based on how they get treated, and keep the upper layers as impartial as possible. I use the word "layers" strangely here. It's all dissociative metaphor, a attempt to illustrate the complexity and logical trickery of the actual meta-linguistic model which I am describing.


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Sclorch]
    #953679 - 10/12/02 12:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)


> I wasn't aware of any nihilists in this forum. Hmm....

Warning bells go off in my head if I start really believing any one source of "Truth". One seems to need to think of something oneself if one is to understand it. This can be achieved by being shown the steps another used in arriving at the conclusion. If the listener is not intelligent or advanced enough to understand the steps, no understanding. There are always gaps, and the one explaining must make sure they're small enough to fill in.


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Sclorch]
    #954069 - 10/12/02 02:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I don't really believe in anything...
But I also I don't believe there are any logical consequences to being a nihilist (think about it.) So I don't go around acting as if I believe in nothing. Why bother? Go with what's easy, or what *seems* real, because if you know in the back of your head that none of it matters in the long run, whatever keeps you going is fine.
I think nihilism really is the ultimate truth, any construction of 'what is' or 'what should be' is comes up empty. -But- there's nowhere to take it. So you get to that point, and shrug, and inevitably come back to things like pragmatism and hedonism and altrusim, because sometimes the only answer to 'why'? is "Why Not."


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Sclorch]
    #954386 - 10/12/02 04:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Isn't nihilism a river in Egypt?

Anyway, Someone up there said that truth always comes up empty. Others say there is no such thing as truth.------ This is an impossibility.

What may be true for one person or one galaxy or universe may not be true for the other but in our frame of reference for our perceptions there is absolutely truth. Communication on any substantial level would be impossible if there were no truths on which to rely. For the sake of efficiency of living and understanding we have to hold some aspects as...well....true!!! Does that mean they are universally true? Of course not but we can only operate in our frame of reference so we must hold to "our truths".


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Xibalba]
    #954389 - 10/12/02 04:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Warning bells go off in my head if I start really believing any one source of "Truth".
That happens to you, too?!

So you get to that point, and shrug, and inevitably come back to things like pragmatism and hedonism and altrusim, because sometimes the only answer to 'why'? is "Why Not."

And then one day you stumble upon something called "constructivism" and you are compelled to look into it. You find some interesting ideas that you have had for a long time. You've gleaned similar concepts off of others' philosophies... but for some reason, these concepts were rarely stated so explicitly. Hmm....


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #955422 - 10/12/02 06:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

We believe in nothing, Lebowski!

Hehe, just had to. :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #955450 - 10/12/02 06:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry for the non-substantive one liner but....

I am scared.

Cheers,


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #955471 - 10/12/02 06:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Krishnamurti once said that belief and disbelief are the same thing. He said thatt believing god exists and believing god doesnt exist is the same thing. They are two different sides of the same coin. He says that belief is not necesary at all in life, and all belief does is condition your mind and prevent you from seing 'what is', which is truth.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #955485 - 10/12/02 06:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Krishnamurti once said that belief and disbelief are the same thing. He said thatt believing god exists and believing god doesnt exist is the same thing. They are two different sides of the same coin. He says that belief is not necesary at all in life, and all belief does is condition your mind and prevent you from seing 'what is', which is truth.

But, if you don't have 'belief', you disbelieve. There's nothing in between.


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #955528 - 10/12/02 07:27 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

On the topic of truth:

Truth is everything that exists. It is seeing and aknowledging everything. It is the trees and you and me and the sky and everything else. But our minds seem to distort this truth by comparing everything we see and experience with what we have seen and experienced in the past, and then extracting beliefs from these experiences. Then we experience and see things relative to our beliefs, and we dont see things as they are, we see them as either confirming or denying our beliefs. So the alternative to judging everything according to our beliefs is to pay attention to everything with an open mind and to use your intelligence in every situation instead of tuning to your beliefs for guidence. Dont turn to the past for answers, treat every moment and decision as new, because they always are new.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #955537 - 10/12/02 07:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Truth is everything that exists.

Everything that exists is a sign from something that is truth.


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Zahid]
    #955544 - 10/12/02 07:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"But, if you don't have 'belief', you disbelieve. There's nothing in between."

This is a common misconception. You are correct when you say there is nothing in between. I'm not talking about something in between, I'm talking about something different altogether. Do you know what belief is? It is an idea that someone labels as true or false. But why label at all? Why do you have to define ideas as right or wrong. By deciding that an idea is true, you condition your mind and cut yourself off from discovering furthur. Belief is not necesarry at all. We humans are so used to thinking that we must take a postition on everything. nothing good has ever come from a belief, so what is the point? Isnt it much more practical to use your intelligence instead of a belief in every situation?


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Zahid]
    #955549 - 10/12/02 07:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"Everything that exists is a sign from something that is truth."

I dont quite understand. Would you mind explaining further please?


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: xganon]
    #955552 - 10/12/02 07:41 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I agree


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #955631 - 10/12/02 08:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

How can anybody believe in nothing? What the hell does that mean?

Oh and re: a truth - Every answered question gives birth to more UNanswered questions. I don't believe there is a real and absolute "truth," other than just that - I've heard people refer to it as the "Cosmic Joke" - the idea that we are bored creatures and will always find something else to question and puzzle us no matter how much we've already figured out.

That doesn't stop me from trying though ;-) Although hopeless, It sure is fun, and definitely kills time.

Edit #1 (addition): It also gives birth to all sorts of new inventions and ways of life (and new ways of killing time other than drilling one's self with more questions), as has happened in the past, happens today, and happens tomorrow.

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
I'm just sittin here
Just wastin time
Thinkin, smokin, drinkin
Tryin to free my mind


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (10/12/02 08:40 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #955680 - 10/12/02 09:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I dont quite understand. Would you mind explaining further please?

Since you asked, the 'signs' are exterior observations that ultimately leads a person to find God. They include anything and absolutely everything. A few of them are mentioned in the scriptures; such as the rotation of day and night (to count time), the water cycle, existence itself, etc. Regarding belief; it really doesn't matter what you believe in, the fact remains that no matter what you tell yourself, you will always hold beliefs - even if that belief is nothing. Just because you disbelieve in religion doesn't mean you don't hold any beliefs.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956171 - 10/13/02 03:05 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

By the fact that you are rplying to this thread you have the belief that someone will understand the language you are speaking. You believe that you are actually typing the words on your screen.

This is what I was saying......for our frame of reference, it is impossible to go about your daily life without holding onto some beliefs or truths. Some things just simply have to be taken for granted or nothing will be possible. As I said...this doesn't mean that these things are universal truths, and if new data comes in that contradicts the current belief then you modify it.

As much as some of us hate to admit it or give into it.....we must give into some things at some point. For our frame of reference it makes sense to believe in the laws of thermodynamics. It makes sense to believe in gravity.

Does this make sense :grin: 


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #956338 - 10/13/02 04:57 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Does this make sense?

I believe it does.


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956576 - 10/13/02 09:44 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

> Truth is everything that exists. It is seeing and aknowledging everything. It is the trees and you
> and me and the sky and everything else.

Interesting definition.

> But our minds seem to distort this truth by comparing everything we see and experience with
> what we have seen and experienced in the past, and then extracting beliefs from these
> experiences.

The past can be a source of wisdom concerning truth. Are you on mushrooms right now? If not, do you discount all which you have experienced on mushrooms due to the experience being in the past? Memory is faulty, but it is often all we have. The past exists in memories, but memories can be distorted in interpretation until the interpretation replaces the memory.

> Then we experience and see things relative to our beliefs, and we dont see things as they are,
> we see them as either confirming or denying our beliefs.

How else are we supposed to ensure that we haven't fallen into delusional traps? Of course, the 'experience' which one is evaluating the beliefs against is often invented by the mind for the sole purpose of proving the beliefs. It's good at pulling patterns out of random data. I find dextromethorphan to be perfect for this purpose. It makes me immune to fear/pain and other animal nonsense, detaches me from my previous beliefs, and sharpens my long-term memory to a superhuman level.

> So the alternative to judging everything according to our beliefs is to pay attention to
> everything with an open mind and to use your intelligence in every situation instead of tuning to
> your beliefs for guidence. Dont turn to the past for answers, treat every moment and decision
> as new, because they always are new.

I see what you mean now. One must not trust one's past intelligence too much. One has more data now, so one can better evaluate. Most beliefs have too much inertia. Some should be hard to change (such as the one you stated in this post) to ensure that nothing else slips by and gets embedded. The clean-up never really ends, though. Many of us are born mad and continue to be so until, out of necessity, we find the tools to cure ourselves and find that we can become even more than those who are born whole (or anywhere near it) and are never driven to change can ever be.


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956585 - 10/13/02 10:08 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

> Krishnamurti once said that belief and disbelief are the same thing.

In the same manner that Linux and Windows are the same thing, yes. The same applies to all things. They are all the same in their is-ness.

> He said thatt believing god exists and believing god doesnt exist is the same thing.

"Believing god doesn't exist" or "Not believing that God exists"? If it's the former, they are two beliefs. If it's the latter, then yes, on the highest levels, opposites become the same.

> They are two different sides of the same coin.

Acknowledgement, right?

> He says that belief is not necesary at all in life, and all belief does is condition your mind and
> prevent you from seing 'what is', which is truth.

He appears to have been using belief in a different sense than we do. Even when these things are translated by people who understand them, they really should define the sense in which they use terms like 'belief'. If he truthfully represents something as truth, he believes it, according to our reflexive definition of belief. All communication has the same problem.

The true student of these things creates his own philosophy out of bits and pieces, some given by others and others of his own creation, connecting them and creating something adapted for his mind out of the rich texture of material in which he is immersed. There's no harm in stealing parts of someone's ideas and outright contradicting the rest. Even if one is misunderstanding the concept, it's still a valid interpretation, whether it was thought of by Buddha or some guy posting on the Shroomery. Unless it's self-created (not excluding the guidance of others in the creation-process), it's just another belief. Maybe this is the meaning of that quote?

Amphetamine makes for a interesting ally. It is very helpful in taking the things discovered in other states and applying them into everyday life. I have a real (as much as ADD is) prescription and enough self-discipline to only get a new one once a month, so please don't start speed-bashing like everyone in alt.drugs.psychedelics does.


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956589 - 10/13/02 10:13 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

>> "But, if you don't have 'belief', you disbelieve. There's nothing in between."

> This is a common misconception.

Not entirely. Consider these 3 statements.

"There is a God."
"There is not a God."
"I don't know whether there's a God or not, so I will remain open to all possibilities, accepting religious and atheistic revelations at equal face value."

Depending on our usage of "belief", it may only be applying to the first two. With another meaning, it applies to all 3. The "meanings" are different words which happen to posess the same combination of letters. Words are fuzzy anyways, but this feels clear-cut enough. Someone find a loophole in it to prove they're the same thing.


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956605 - 10/13/02 10:28 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

> We humans are so used to thinking that we must take a postition on everything. nothing good
> has ever come from a belief, so what is the point? Isnt it much more practical to use your
> intelligence instead of a belief in every situation?

Just saw this. Yes, dividing things by 'right' and 'wrong' is stupid. They require fuzzy classification by the level of confidence one holds in them, and actions should be similarly classified by levels of required confidence, with a third multi-layered layer of meta-hacks to make the whole thing operate. The part of my brain which deals with this kind of logical abstraction is very advanced (and the Adderall doesn't hurt any), to the point where my brain runs it natively. No, I can't write my brain in C++. So many operators which are inexpressable. I have glimpsed my brain's assembly language indeed, and it is very cool. I suspect the 'brain damage' seen in DXM users is actually a sign of their minds speaking this God-code instead of English, making vocal communication very difficult. It's possible to get it across in writing, but rarely if ever in speech. I have to write like this to communicate it. If I talked this much to a person, that person would likely become very angry at me for "monopolizing" the wholly inadequate communications bandwidth. So the dex-head who is bad at writing appears to be a disabled zombie.


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #956606 - 10/13/02 10:32 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

>> "Everything that exists is a sign from something that is truth."
> I dont quite understand. Would you mind explaining further please?

Truth exists in mind, since no-truth is randomness. Therefore, the Universe appears to have mind. Scratch that. The mind appears to have Universe.


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #956616 - 10/13/02 10:53 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)


> By the fact that you are rplying to this thread you have the belief that someone will understand
> the language you are speaking. You believe that you are actually typing the words on your
> screen.

Nope, I don't believe with 100% certainty that someone's going to understand this. I'm reasonably confident, though, and writing this is enjoyable in itself. "I am typing these words on the screen" is a meta-label for "the activity which I am doing". Even if I'm God on God-Acid and this is some sort of strange hyper-psychedelic sexual play with the Goddess, that is for now the definition of "typing these words on the screen".

> This is what I was saying......for our frame of reference, it is impossible to go about your daily life without holding onto some beliefs or truths.

Not if you're a hacker and know some of the underlying language. Abolute truth/untruth is a model. I make models for fun. Let's make some better ones.

> Some things just simply have to be taken for granted or nothing will be possible.

So the basis is action? This makes sense. Why not redesign the structure as a servant instead of a master, helping one act based on the best possible conclusions instead of the most recent one? It takes lots of evaluation to keep it debugged. That's what drugs are for.

> As I said...this doesn't mean that these things are universal truths, and if new data comes in that
> contradicts the current belief then you modify it.

"There is no universel truth." "There is no ultimate reality". I said that while "Enlightened" (I said that too) on shrooms+DXM. There are only working models, made for the joy of making and the good of the entire system.

> As much as some of us hate to admit it or give into it.....we must give into some things at some
> point. For our frame of reference it makes sense to believe in the laws of thermodynamics. It
> makes sense to believe in gravity.

I wish I was learned in physics (I may be one day). Assuming you aren't, I would ask you to define your model of gravity which you "believe", and I would explain how science's current *theory* of gravity (which describes something I haven't learned yet and labels it with 'gravity') is nothing like your interpretation (which I again assume to be incorrect for the purposes of this discussion). Then I would ask you whether it was a good idea to label your interpretation of gravity as a universal law instead of as a theory like the scientists who discover these things do. You may label it by observable evidence, which has a higher level of truth. That's OK, but then you just believe in the evidence. There are always exceptions. You're probably a physicist though.

Does this make sense? I can't understand this and apply it all the time so I have to apply it to potential actions while in a state during which I can understand it and then conditionally 'believe' the actions while in other states of consciousness. When I am angry I want to beat every person who I see to death with a metal pipe. I don't trust my brain as much while in that state, and start robot-executing programs to escape from it (such as drug use, or setting my arm on fire). The robot (who is about as conscious as most monkeys at this point) starts chilling out as soon as the skin gets singed a little. One must trust one's insights and view "everyday" consciousness as a enemy who must be disabled so that he cannot harm one.


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Anonymous

Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: xganon]
    #957080 - 10/13/02 03:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Whatever else can be said your posts make interesting reading.

Welcome, to S&P&S.

Please state your major philosophic influences for the record.

I'll go put on some coffee. :smile:

Cheers,


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InvisibleMetasyn
one

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 239
Loc: PNW
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: ]
    #958106 - 10/13/02 11:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I second that.  :smile:

There seems way too much to reply too within this topic, although I'm interested in all of it... espcially the brain's assembly language part.  Can you explain anything else about this?


Edited by Metasyn (10/13/02 11:02 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Metasyn]
    #958611 - 10/14/02 01:39 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Evidently xganon has bigger fish to fry. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: ]
    #960581 - 10/14/02 08:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

> Evidently xganon has bigger fish to fry.
Like crashing, sleep, work, and cannabis?

I can identiy some philosophical influences, just not name them.

If responding to long posts is difficult, try pasting the post into the form like I do and breaking it up, responding to it one part at a time.


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