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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
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Believing in nothing becomes a belief.
    #953184 - 10/11/02 08:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It seems lately that many of the threads I have read contain statements that read
"I believe in nothing". Many say that because everything is subjective then real truth is forever elusive. My problem with this is that many become dogmatic about sticking to the ---not believing in anything--- So now, in a sense you are closed off to possibilities that truth can be found. I am not saying it can be found but I am also not saying it can't.  The best method through this that I have heard actually came from our mod. Mr. Mushrooms......(loosely quoted) "I am ready and willing to dump everything I believe if new data comes in that makes it necessary". I really like this quote because I find that sometimes I hold rigidly to some things that I believe.

Basically, believing in nothing is fine if you are open to believing in something.


(or something like that :wink:


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #953324 - 10/11/02 09:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I wasn't aware of any nihilists in this forum. Hmm....


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 228
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Sclorch]
    #953342 - 10/11/02 09:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I have one friend who is damn close to being a nihilist (at least he used to talk about it a lot).  He doesn't believe in anything and it doesn't bother him that he doesn't care.  :smile:  I wish I could get him to visit this this board (S&P and Political).  He would add greatly to the discussions on these topics.  Sadly I am all you have out of my immediate circle of wierdos.  LOL   


--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Sclorch]
    #953624 - 10/11/02 11:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

nihilism is so 90's


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #953640 - 10/11/02 11:55 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Whenever I start posting somewhere I pick a random post and respond to it. This is the last thing I wrote in this message.

> It seems lately that many of the threads I have read contain statements that read
> "I believe in nothing".

I'm still mostly a dex-head (despite my last shroom trip) so there'll probably be enough talk about nothing if I stick around here.

> Many say that because everything is subjective then real truth is forever elusive.

Is there any such thing as "real truth"? It seems to be a naive fantasy of our cognitive systems. Dispelling the fantasy necessitates action. One who wishes to die still keeps living for long enough to end life. The upper layers of the mind realize something, but they must apply it to lower levels.

> My problem with this is that many become dogmatic about sticking to the ---not believing in anything---

What do you mean by "dogmatic"? Are they attacking others whenever they say the word 'is'? Or are they simply trying to change the way their minds behave forcibly?

> So now, in a sense you are closed off to possibilities that truth can be found.

Mental states have inertia, and the breaking of this intertia often requires force in the opposite direction.

> I am not saying it can be found but I am also not saying it can't.

"Truth" implies encapsulation in the human logic system, which does not appear to be capable of encapsulating the Universe. Unless you're a alien or diety using the word in a different sense, of course.

> "I am ready and willing to dump everything I believe if new data comes in that makes it
> necessary". I really like this quote because I find that sometimes I hold rigidly to some things
> that I believe.

"Nothing is true. Everything is permissible.". Or, sometimes "Nothing is real.". A good mantra. That quote isn't broad enough. "All models subject to revision, especially if marked otherwise".

> Basically, believing in nothing is fine if you are open to believing in something.

Believing isn't very important though. It seems best to seperate ideas and assignments into piles based on how they get treated, and keep the upper layers as impartial as possible. I use the word "layers" strangely here. It's all dissociative metaphor, a attempt to illustrate the complexity and logical trickery of the actual meta-linguistic model which I am describing.


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Please remove all dollar signs from my listed contact information


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Invisiblexganon
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Sclorch]
    #953679 - 10/12/02 12:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)


> I wasn't aware of any nihilists in this forum. Hmm....

Warning bells go off in my head if I start really believing any one source of "Truth". One seems to need to think of something oneself if one is to understand it. This can be achieved by being shown the steps another used in arriving at the conclusion. If the listener is not intelligent or advanced enough to understand the steps, no understanding. There are always gaps, and the one explaining must make sure they're small enough to fill in.


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Please remove all dollar signs from my listed contact information


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Sclorch]
    #954069 - 10/12/02 02:21 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I don't really believe in anything...
But I also I don't believe there are any logical consequences to being a nihilist (think about it.) So I don't go around acting as if I believe in nothing. Why bother? Go with what's easy, or what *seems* real, because if you know in the back of your head that none of it matters in the long run, whatever keeps you going is fine.
I think nihilism really is the ultimate truth, any construction of 'what is' or 'what should be' is comes up empty. -But- there's nowhere to take it. So you get to that point, and shrug, and inevitably come back to things like pragmatism and hedonism and altrusim, because sometimes the only answer to 'why'? is "Why Not."


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
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Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Sclorch]
    #954386 - 10/12/02 04:09 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Isn't nihilism a river in Egypt?

Anyway, Someone up there said that truth always comes up empty. Others say there is no such thing as truth.------ This is an impossibility.

What may be true for one person or one galaxy or universe may not be true for the other but in our frame of reference for our perceptions there is absolutely truth. Communication on any substantial level would be impossible if there were no truths on which to rely. For the sake of efficiency of living and understanding we have to hold some aspects as...well....true!!! Does that mean they are universally true? Of course not but we can only operate in our frame of reference so we must hold to "our truths".


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Registered: 07/13/99
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Xibalba]
    #954389 - 10/12/02 04:09 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Warning bells go off in my head if I start really believing any one source of "Truth".
That happens to you, too?!

So you get to that point, and shrug, and inevitably come back to things like pragmatism and hedonism and altrusim, because sometimes the only answer to 'why'? is "Why Not."

And then one day you stumble upon something called "constructivism" and you are compelled to look into it. You find some interesting ideas that you have had for a long time. You've gleaned similar concepts off of others' philosophies... but for some reason, these concepts were rarely stated so explicitly. Hmm....


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #955422 - 10/12/02 06:20 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

We believe in nothing, Lebowski!

Hehe, just had to. :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #955450 - 10/12/02 06:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry for the non-substantive one liner but....

I am scared.

Cheers,


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OfflineBuddha1
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Registered: 05/22/02
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: chemkid]
    #955471 - 10/12/02 06:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Krishnamurti once said that belief and disbelief are the same thing. He said thatt believing god exists and believing god doesnt exist is the same thing. They are two different sides of the same coin. He says that belief is not necesary at all in life, and all belief does is condition your mind and prevent you from seing 'what is', which is truth.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #955485 - 10/12/02 06:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Krishnamurti once said that belief and disbelief are the same thing. He said thatt believing god exists and believing god doesnt exist is the same thing. They are two different sides of the same coin. He says that belief is not necesary at all in life, and all belief does is condition your mind and prevent you from seing 'what is', which is truth.

But, if you don't have 'belief', you disbelieve. There's nothing in between.


--------------------


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #955528 - 10/12/02 07:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

On the topic of truth:

Truth is everything that exists. It is seeing and aknowledging everything. It is the trees and you and me and the sky and everything else. But our minds seem to distort this truth by comparing everything we see and experience with what we have seen and experienced in the past, and then extracting beliefs from these experiences. Then we experience and see things relative to our beliefs, and we dont see things as they are, we see them as either confirming or denying our beliefs. So the alternative to judging everything according to our beliefs is to pay attention to everything with an open mind and to use your intelligence in every situation instead of tuning to your beliefs for guidence. Dont turn to the past for answers, treat every moment and decision as new, because they always are new.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #955537 - 10/12/02 07:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Truth is everything that exists.

Everything that exists is a sign from something that is truth.


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OfflineBuddha1
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Registered: 05/22/02
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Zahid]
    #955544 - 10/12/02 07:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"But, if you don't have 'belief', you disbelieve. There's nothing in between."

This is a common misconception. You are correct when you say there is nothing in between. I'm not talking about something in between, I'm talking about something different altogether. Do you know what belief is? It is an idea that someone labels as true or false. But why label at all? Why do you have to define ideas as right or wrong. By deciding that an idea is true, you condition your mind and cut yourself off from discovering furthur. Belief is not necesarry at all. We humans are so used to thinking that we must take a postition on everything. nothing good has ever come from a belief, so what is the point? Isnt it much more practical to use your intelligence instead of a belief in every situation?


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Zahid]
    #955549 - 10/12/02 07:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"Everything that exists is a sign from something that is truth."

I dont quite understand. Would you mind explaining further please?


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: xganon]
    #955552 - 10/12/02 07:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I agree


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #955631 - 10/12/02 08:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

How can anybody believe in nothing? What the hell does that mean?

Oh and re: a truth - Every answered question gives birth to more UNanswered questions. I don't believe there is a real and absolute "truth," other than just that - I've heard people refer to it as the "Cosmic Joke" - the idea that we are bored creatures and will always find something else to question and puzzle us no matter how much we've already figured out.

That doesn't stop me from trying though ;-) Although hopeless, It sure is fun, and definitely kills time.

Edit #1 (addition): It also gives birth to all sorts of new inventions and ways of life (and new ways of killing time other than drilling one's self with more questions), as has happened in the past, happens today, and happens tomorrow.

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
I'm just sittin here
Just wastin time
Thinkin, smokin, drinkin
Tryin to free my mind


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (10/12/02 08:40 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Believing in nothing becomes a belief. [Re: Buddha1]
    #955680 - 10/12/02 09:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I dont quite understand. Would you mind explaining further please?

Since you asked, the 'signs' are exterior observations that ultimately leads a person to find God. They include anything and absolutely everything. A few of them are mentioned in the scriptures; such as the rotation of day and night (to count time), the water cycle, existence itself, etc. Regarding belief; it really doesn't matter what you believe in, the fact remains that no matter what you tell yourself, you will always hold beliefs - even if that belief is nothing. Just because you disbelieve in religion doesn't mean you don't hold any beliefs.


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