Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Sterilized Grain Bag for Spawn   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1597784 - 06/01/03 06:21 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"I could take some entheogens in a ceremony and spirit would tell me things. How could you possibly test that? "
--------------------------

I suppose that, although very unreliable in a strict scientific way, it could be perhaps tested by first testing the individual's credibility.. ie.. How truthfull is the individual vs. Do they lie often [ You could make secret tests to confirm it to yourself rather easily- although it will take several "tests" to feel some sort of answer ] .. and if you determine for yourself that they are an "honest Joe" type, then I guess you could simply believe them about the experience, and then, discuss it.. as descriptively as possible.

I totally understand that it is not a concrete, "Hard Copy" evidence type proof... and I also understand the it can ONLY be done with people whom you really get to know personally.. So the test, already, has limits to its usefullness.

However, in a world where the scientific community lacks the benefits from the invention of hyper sensitive equipment, avenues which generate some sort of proof tend to be very limited at this time.


.. As for ceremonies..

I have two Native friends. I find them to be really spiritual in nature. Ceremonies are fantastic !

It is really unfortunate that I have never witnessed any ceremonies, nor have I ever heard Drum Playing live... [ which is definately an opportunity that I will grab a hold of if ever presented ]

It's like Amazonian ceremonies.. I'm sure they are amazing also.




Interesting thing is though, I have noticed the occurence of synchronous events even before the very first alcoholic drink I ever had.. I have always felt it was a non-ceremonious way that the spirit communicated. What I'm saying is, I believe that TRUE messages are not limited to entheogenic ceremonies...



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Male

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1597835 - 06/01/03 07:49 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"You could test it, but it would mean nothing - the answer/solution would be that you took entheogens and nothing paranormal happened. "

I dunno about this.

Here. Take this apple. Notice what color it is. Notice how it feels in your hand, the texture of the skin, the slight waxyness from the spray at the grocery store. Now take a bite. Feel the juice slide down your tongue. Feel how the tartness of the apple makes your mouth pucker up just a bit. Feel how crunchy the fruit is.

Self evident, right? These sensations are real, and I could venture that every single one of us has had exactly this set of sensations before.

NOW, if I were to explian in detail the neurophysiological reactions that allowed your brain to translate the sensory data from this apple into the direct and indirect sensations that you just experienced, would that make the experience any less real? I could literally say, "no, you didn't actually taste that apple, but a series of neurochemical switches were activated between your tongue and brain that allowed you to think that you were tasting it".

Yet we all know that we DO taste the apple. We know that it DOES crunch and that the juice IS tart and cool... does the fact that we can both qualify and quantify the physiological reaction that accompanies this sensory input make our experience any less real?

We could do the same thing (and have - although if you'll forgive me, I haven't taken the time to include any references) with extrasensory experiences under the influences of hallucinogens. By definition, the observer cannot be having the same experience as the... uh.. experiencee(?). But we can chart changes in neurochemistry, in brain wave activity, in levels of sensory awareness - all using scientifically accepted methodology. So why is it so difficult to say that these things are really happening, despite not being able to directly observer the phenomenon? Is it really that much of an anthropological leap to say that yes, because we can observe the same patterns with these experiences as those of universally understood experiences (the apple), they are actually experiencing something...

Again, language fails us...

But if you are unwilling to accept this as a possibility, then I would say to you that, because I cannot directly experience your experience of biting an apple, watching a sunset, or having an orgasm, then neither have you. You never experienced any of these things. You simply underwent some specific changes in your neurochemistry that opened a few and closed a few pathways in your brain.

Gern


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1597892 - 06/01/03 08:49 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know Bro. I could take some entheogens in a ceremony and spirit would tell me things. How could you possibly test that?

One test for that would be that your life was not "working" before the ceremony and shortly afterward, you got it together. The mushroom seemingly "speaks" to many here, yet they continue as before.

History is the litmus test for the usefulness of Native American ceremonies for protecting the tribes from the dangers of the real world. Not just from the onslaught of the White man, but also starvation; especially in the Northern tribes during the long, cold winters. The life expectancy of your average Native American, even before the advent of the Europeans, was quite short.

The same thing can be said of the mushroom ceremonies of Central America. What use is personal spiritual knowledge if your entire tribe / civilization is wiped out?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597904 - 06/01/03 08:59 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

What use is asking questions if you're going to just die eventually?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Grav]
    #1597909 - 06/01/03 09:04 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

What use is asking questions if you're going to just die eventually?

Here is why it is important:

(Hold on someone is at the door... I'll be right back) "No!, Don't! *sounds of struggle* "Arrrrgggghhhhhhh!" *sound of running footsteps followed by silence*


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597914 - 06/01/03 09:07 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

3. Absolute reality does not exist and reality is subjective... hence the action exists for the believer and does not exist for the skeptic.

Which is why the number of spontaneous remissions of believers with cancer who go to Lourdes for healing is actually less than the statistical norm. So much for the awesome power of belief and subjective reality.





Link please.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597919 - 06/01/03 09:16 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I don't know Bro. I could take some entheogens in a ceremony and spirit would tell me things. How could you possibly test that?

One test for that would be that your life was not "working" before the ceremony and shortly afterward, you got it together. The mushroom seemingly "speaks" to many here, yet they continue as before.

History is the litmus test for the usefulness of Native American ceremonies for protecting the tribes from the dangers of the real world. Not just from the onslaught of the White man, but also starvation; especially in the Northern tribes during the long, cold winters. The life expectancy of your average Native American, even before the advent of the Europeans, was quite short.

The same thing can be said of the mushroom ceremonies of Central America. What use is personal spiritual knowledge if your entire tribe / civilization is wiped out?




Those are good points but don't conflate "dangers of the real world" with longevity. What you are saying is that if Shamanism were real the people who practice should have a long life no matter what the circumstancs. People that live in a harsh environment die earlier. A better example would be the "Ghost Dance" that was supposed to make us invisible to the white man and his bullets. But, one disaster doesn't mean that all shamanism is fraudulent. It might have been that one of the factors were incorrect, that is all.

Consider that when a scientist is performing an experiment that if he gets one step wrong he may not be able to repeat the experiment and get the same result. Let's not hold shamanism to a higher standard than any other empirical investigation.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1597926 - 06/01/03 09:27 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, I do not have a link nor the several book titiles that I used to piece this together, but was in the public library years ago reading a book on Lourdes and I became quite curious. As not every pilgrim is interviewed for the reason they journey nor counted, all numbers are very rough estimates.

What I did, was to take number of claimed cancer cures (and accepted that ALL claims were valid!) divided by the estimated number of annual visitors then compared this to medical texts on the number of terminal cancers per million and the number of spontaneous remissions per annum.

Now I know that my conclusion may easily be torn apart, but I did the best I could with the limited data set presented and tried to be unbiased, yet could detect no correlation between a "miraculous" healing at Lourdes and a natural "spontaneous" healing.

"The Catholic Faith alone produces miracles, which are never seen among heretics. Plants of this sort cannot grow in a soil cursed by God; they can take root only in that Church where the True Faith is professed . . . God cannot sanction the performance of a miracle except in favor of the true religion; were He to permit it in support of error, He would deceive us."

St. Alphonsus Marie de Liguori, Bishop & Doctor of the Church


Ah, nothing quite like spiritual elitism!




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/01/03 09:29 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597941 - 06/01/03 09:41 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

:grin:

All that proves is that the visitors didn't have enough faith.  :smirk:

Quote:

Ah, nothing quite like spiritual elitism!




Indeed.  You could even leave out the word 'spiritual' and it is still a great statement.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1597952 - 06/01/03 09:55 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

People that live in a harsh environment die earlier.
Yes, but they do not starve to death if the Great Spirit points out where the elk herds are hiding.

But, one disaster doesn't mean that all shamanism is fraudulent.
Ofr course not, but where is that verifiable one positive?

Let's not hold shamanism to a higher standard than any other empirical investigation.
How am I holding it to a higher standard? Science has afforded real-world results. I see none with shamanism. Shamanism abounds in today's Africa, yet disease and hunger are ripping the continent apart. Modern medicine and agriculture will do more for the people there than any native ceremony. Time to leg go of ancient superstitions and replace them with hard knowledge.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/01/03 10:18 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1597973 - 06/01/03 10:13 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

:grin:

People that live in a harsh environment die earlier.

Yes, but they do not starve to death if the Great Spirit points out where the elk herds are hiding.

Link please.

But, one disaster doesn't mean that all shamanism is fraudulent.

Ofr course not, but where is that verifiable one positive?

I seem to have left the evidence in my other suit.

Let's not hold shamanism to a higher standard than any other empirical investigation.

How am I holding it to a higher standard? Science has afforded real-world results. I see none with shamanism. Shamanism abounds in today's Africa, yet disease and hunger are ripping the continent apart. Modern medicine and agriculture will do more for the people their than any native ceremony. Time to leg go of ancient superstitions and replace it with hard knowledge.

leg go?  Children's toys have very little to do with our discussion in my view.

There is a assumption here that all forms of Shamanism are the same and all produce the same result.  I can assure you that they are as different as the forms of any religion.  And, just because one religion is false it doesn't mean that all of them are.  Similarly, some forms of shamanism are consistent with reality and others are not.

   

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1599574 - 06/01/03 09:07 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Right on


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Shroomism]
    #1599851 - 06/01/03 10:21 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

:wink:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1600337 - 06/02/03 01:27 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

excuses excuses excuses... bah!

Ooo... rock candy!!!


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1600766 - 06/02/03 06:52 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

One test for that would be that your life was not "working" before the ceremony and shortly afterward, you got it together. The mushroom seemingly "speaks" to many here, yet they continue as before.




Sorry bro this test of yours make no sense, Just because the mushroom speaks does not guarantee change in the individual.
Just like if you take a course into how to make money, you will make money.
Some will use the info correctly and some will never use it, is up to the individual, not the information.
Also there is no guarantee that the info that you receive is correct also, we are talking about a phenomenon here.
And how can you make a judgment on how the members of this board were before and after the ethogen experience?
Are you saying that you are that wise to judge us, just from a few lines that you see in your computer or is it that you are using some paranormal ability to make those claims?
Bro just because the mushies don?t speak to you, don?t be sour about it.



--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: LOBO]
    #1600809 - 06/02/03 07:38 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"paranormal activity in most of us is a rarity, most of the times can not be reproduce at will,"

Sounds like you're describing coincidences, not paranormal activity.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1600816 - 06/02/03 07:48 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"Interesting thing is though, I have noticed the occurence of synchronous events even before the very first alcoholic drink I ever had."

The human mind is a pattern recognition device. We often find congruencies and patterns where there are none, and we apply strange meaning to meaningless events. Sometimes there are coincidences, and sometimes we create them in our minds, but it would be foolish to just to the conclusion that they were put there by spirits meaning to communicate with us.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: LOBO]
    #1600995 - 06/02/03 09:26 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Just because the mushroom speaks does not guarantee change in the individual.
No change in a person who receives deep insight while in a highly receptive state does not say much about the message transmitted nor the divine transmitter.

Just like if you take a course into how to make money, you will make money.
Some will use the info correctly and some will never use it, is up to the individual, not the information.

MBA graduates make far more money than mere high school graduates, showing that the coursework does indeed have intrinsic value. What is the definable "something" that delineates trippers (voice hearers) from non-trippers other than a preference for tie-dyed clothing and Pink Floyd?

Also there is no guarantee that the info that you receive is correct also
If the info is incorrect, then it obviously isn't our higher self giving guidance, is it? More like imagination.

And how can you make a judgment on how the members of this board were before and after the ethogen experience?Are you saying that you are that wise to judge us, just from a few lines that you see in your computer or is it that you are using some paranormal ability to make those claims?
Lobo, not like you to put words in my mouth. Wasn't talking about my judgement, but those making the claim of spiritual insight from journeying, then saying how bad their life sucks.

Bro just because the mushies don?t speak to you, don?t be sour about it.
More useless personalized conjecture not worthy of your abilities...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: Swami]
    #1601186 - 06/02/03 11:24 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

No change in a person who receives deep insight while in a highly receptive state does not say much about the message transmitted nor the divine transmitter.

Incorrect. But it does say a hell of a lot about the transceiver.

MBA graduates make far more money than mere high school graduates, showing that the coursework does indeed have intrinsic value. What is the definable "something" that delineates trippers (voice hearers) from non-trippers other than a preference for tie-dyed clothing and Pink Floyd?

Your statement contains the key about what he was trying to convey:

coursework

Without the work you won't be an MBA, would you? There is nothing intrinsic in that.

If the info is incorrect, then it obviously isn't our higher self giving guidance, is it? More like imagination.

Imagination is a jump. It could be that some information may be correct and some incorrect.

Lobo, not like you to put words in my mouth. Wasn't talking about my judgement, but those making the claim of spiritual insight from journeying, then saying how bad their life sucks.

Lobo is right. You are making value judgments about other people's lives.

I always try to make others happy instead of judging them. I do not always succeed in this but it gives my life a better "quality", to borrow from Robert Pirsig. It also keeps me from being bitter about my own life's disappointments most of the time.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Testing your Paranormal Hypothesis [Re: ]
    #1601235 - 06/02/03 11:43 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

No change in a person who receives deep insight while in a highly receptive state does not say much about the message transmitted nor the divine transmitter.
Incorrect. But it does say a hell of a lot about the transceiver.
Ah, so a school teacher (the transmitter) whose entire class fails basic reading skills can surely blame the students (the transceivers). Very convenient.

Lobo is right. You are making value judgments about other people's lives.
The person saying that their life sucks is the the one doing the judgement.

I always try to make others happy instead of judging them.
That is truly wonderful. What has this to do with testing someone's paranormal hypothesis (i.e. judging their claim to be true or false)? Perhaps my next post should be, "I think it is amazing that you can create psi-balls and move pencils with your mind." Cheerleading and encouragement instead of real debate is what we are now striving for.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Sterilized Grain Bag for Spawn   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Cultivation Supplies


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Gaia Hypothesis...
( 1 2 all )
AbstractHarmonix 5,344 31 08/31/09 01:19 PM
by Cubers
* Amazing Randi's Letter to Psi Researcher Swami 1,027 2 06/23/03 03:03 PM
by Sclorch
* UFOs and Scientific Research
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Swami 12,865 116 11/11/02 09:58 AM
by Xlea321
* Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
gettinjiggywithit 9,848 92 08/13/05 07:40 AM
by gettinjiggywithit
* Believing the paranormal into existence? The_Visionaire 1,806 13 02/06/06 08:48 PM
by RedNucleus
* Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Ego Death 7,033 117 08/24/05 07:11 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* Guess Swami's Sign
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 5,241 43 03/06/02 11:04 PM
by saturnalone
* One reason why the paranormal has stayed beyond science
( 1 2 3 all )
Ego Death 5,569 42 07/12/05 11:00 PM
by Phluck

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
8,398 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.