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Re: Christians? [Re: curenado]
    #1447327 -

At the risk of invoking the ire of our moderator, I will point out a simple observation that may shed some light on the demeanor of your personality. It is significant to the analytically oriented that when you respond to a post, you include the quote of the one to whom you are responding, but you do not address the individual as an individual - a 'thou.' It is your own name that appears in your response and it appears as though you are conducting a monologue with yourself from this - a kind of solipsistic exercise in intellection. Now, try to imagine, if you will, conducting a dialogue with others in a face-to-face manner. It is doubtful that your delivery would be the same in person. Manifest condescension in no way makes one superior, it merely illustrates insecurity and feelings of inadequacy, which I'm certain you are not trying to convey.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christians? [Re: djd586]
    #1447335 -

The literal definition of sin is "division" as the previous poster notes, and the word also says what Christ has united cannot be divided by man from God, or any power UNDER heaven - in these times nothing but you can divide you from your creator. That is your power deal. Your total trump card. Satan can only tempt, his power doesn't hold up to yours in the end...
The Bible makes it very clear that it's OK not to use anything also, and we're not supposed to bother or harm each other over it either way... :grin:


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Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

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Re: Christians? [Re: djd586]
    #1447365 -

Quote:
I think a lot of Christians would argue that God didn't create everything on Earth


Any Bible-believing Christian who would give you this answer is not being true to their beliefs. Either they do not believe the Bible, or they deny its accuracy (really the same thing).

--
Colossians 1:16 (KJV)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
--

--
Revelation 4:11 (KJV)
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--

--
Revelation 10:5-6 (KJV)
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
--

Please refer any "Christian" who tells you that God did not create all things to these verses.

jssmthrfcknchrst


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Re: Christians? *DELETED* [Re: curenado]
    #1447372 -

Post deleted by Mr_Mushrooms


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

Edited by curenado (04/10/03 04:19 PM)

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Re: Christians? [Re: djd586]
    #1447386 -

It would be very classically 'gnostic' of those Christians to profess that there are multiple creators, Archons, Aeons or a Demiurge or Blind god [Samael]. All things come from the ONE. It is humankind that has 'fallen' from continual grace, and that 'fallen' nature, separated from the ONE Will, embodies the "evil" that the ONE GOD has also created (Isaiah 45:7 KJV). All things have their rightful use in the right hands - from psilocybin to plutonium. The problem is that these and other things fall into the wrong hands, resulting in "disaster" (Isaiah 45:7 NIV).

Everything issues from the ONE, including evil or disaster. This is a hard nut for the 'sweetness and light' theologies that have learned to project everything negative in existence into one cosmic Shadow - the Devil - who also issues from GOD. There is no escape from the difficult truth that GOD alone is the sole Author of creation, and there is no ONE to blame for the threats to temporal existence.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christians? [Re: curenado]
    #1447468 -

You are not my client here, and I am not your Doctor. My observation is simply that - an observation, not a clinical assessment or evaluation, or a diagnosis. We have exchanged no fees for services rendered. Moreover, it was with an apology to our Moderator that I prefaced the above post, if you re-read it, not an attempt to influence him or anyone to attack you. You are doing a good enough job yourself of feeling attacked, when my intention was merely to reflect your arrogance.

I continue here because of the level of intelligence among the regular posters - even the one's whom I am philosophically at loggerheads with, not because they are "dumb and leadable" - YOUR words! As to your ridiculous demand for me to violate my anonymity at this forum...that demand should speak for itself among the members here.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christians? *DELETED* [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1447497 -

Post deleted by Mr_Mushrooms


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

Edited by curenado (04/10/03 05:06 PM)

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Re: Christians? [Re: curenado]
    #1447639 -

You are a scholar? If so then answer me this; why is it that when I open the Bible I can find no literal reference to cannabis or magic mushrooms? Do I need to be a scholar to read the Bible, do I need to be fluent in Hebrew and Greek, do I need to accompany you or someone else on an archeological dig, do I need more books, what? The Bible is supposed to be the inspired word of God, if so why do I have to depend on ANYONE else to interpret it for me?



--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

Edited by AislingGheal (04/10/03 06:19 PM)

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Re: Christians? [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1447776 -

It really is only a matter of language and time -  the specific references to cannabis are all places where you see, in the hebrew "knh bsm", or "knh" (kaneh bosm or kaneh) and in the english "sweet calamus", "calamus" and "sweet cane". The theory that the acoris calamus is the plant referred to is very very weak, and the cannabis one is backed up by history, anthropology, archaeology and theology - all showing evidence.
I think you can read the word for yourself. :smile: I was offering a bit of what we know as the actual history of a word and a plant from it's journey through the first written language to us today. The Bible occurs in Hebrew, aramaic and greek, and when we in modern times go looking for references we go back to the originals, or as close as we can get! :grin:
It wasn't just the semites either. Cannabis was a staple of the ancient marketplace and is listed among the chief trade items. The entire middle east....everybody knows this?
Sula Benet - Institute for anthropolical studies at warsaw - cannabis and culture
an excellent beginning reference
I myself am not satisfied that we have put our finger on mushrooms in the Bible, and I have not pursued the thing enough to risk passing off misinfo. I don't want to say it is not so because I have not searched it all over - but I can't show you anything in the scripture with confidence about tripping except the above story about Leah's mandrakes. (Up in the thread...)
Where you see references to the "flowers of the field" in the song of solomon et all, they mean poppies. We know that one with more confidence.
The Word shouldn't be a labor -  it should be a break.....


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

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Re: Christians? [Re: curenado]
    #1448092 -


Thank you, your response helped me see your point of view much better and the topic is interesting. I'll take your suggestions and explore the subject further over the coming weeks.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Re: Christians? [Re: curenado]
    #1448210 -

If you weren't so irascible, not to mention foolish, you could access former posts, or posts in another forum, before putting both feet in your mouth. I've been here quite a bit longer than you have, and although not everyone is my buddy, long-time Shroomerites know much more about me than you do.

Now, what you believe about me is completely in error, and though I do not have any need to answer to you, I do feel a need to clarify error, lest someone impressionable take your words for truth. In fact, I did earn a Ph.D. from a major university in 1983, and I have been licensed to practice psychotherapy in my home state since 1985. I also hold four national certification specialties. But this forum is one of my avocations, which flows from the same motivation as my vocation - from the Latin for 'calling.' If you want to PM me, that is one thing, but if I discern malicious intent on your part, you certainly are not going to get personal information. I'm not going to be annoyed by yet another paranoid, this time complaining to the Department of Professional Regulation about his distorted perception of my ethics as we banter on the Shroomery.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christians? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1449218 -

Gotta back you up here Bro.

This is not a personal issue and though we like each other you know full well that I do not play favorite. If anything I am harder on the ones I like because I feel they need to set a higher standard.

Curendo, or whatever his name is, is clearly out of line.

And asking for someone's personal information in the forum is WAY out of line. If I were you I wouldn't give it to him.

Excuse me while I go delete a few posts.

Cheers,

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Re: Christians? [Re: curenado]
    #1449223 -

Friend, you are clearly baiting.  I asked you to read the policy.  Either you read it and decided to act against it or you did not understand it.

I police this forum and as a rule I am extremely lax.  You are out of line and I am deleting the majority of your posts in this thread.

No ire from me either.  Just doing my job.

Sorry. :frown:

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Re: Christians? [Re: ]
    #1449380 -

From "Sachel" (Common Sense) a current document of the covenant Essenes......not saying you or I agree or have to...etc..etc..

"Introit
In recent years, scholars and investigators have put forth revelations regarding the history and use of the minor sacraments ("entheogens" in the nomenclature of post modern acadamia...) in the Church and among the faithful. The faithful and faithless alike peer deeply into the origens, practices and history of our faith, and we must make every effort to ensure that in response the Church does not seek to control this information and inspection, but rather to aid it in every way; for the Lord has said that the truth shall make us free, and we in the faith must abide in the Word.
Before we begin we can have confidence of our outcome; we shall be free, not because we have "escaped" or hidden ourselves from the discussion of such sacred things - but because we have searched them; because we will have demonstrated to ourselves again the might and power and liberty of God, and because we will have demonstrated faith and hope before the congregations. We will have established in more modern terms those distinctions which modern enquirers can utilize, and broadened our own foundations by the more confident knowledge that comes from personal investigation. Modern scholars whom we adore for their labors, skill and courage may discover in their journeys what the faithful already know. The faithful can only be enriched by their adventures, for the knowledge of Elohim is healing to the faithful.

No mind can readily accept a concept that states we might find our creator in a sacrament - yet all faiths intuit that the sacrament is more than the substance. The Word teaches us that the seed of the eternal lies within mankind, therefor the Church must logically and scientifically presume that the sacraments serve to uplift mankind towards the divine by moving them spiritually and giving inner voice to their living spirit. Though we know the presence of God's spirit overcomes and reconciles all things, we must not detract in the slightest from the sacraments God has given us, and through which so many millions have come to the light of faith in the memory of mankind. Further, the Church as repository should adequately meet the needs of the faithful in all matters of worship and the sacraments, through it's education ministries and in the training of it's priests. The Church has a primary concern of serving as a well from which all may freely drink, and it's response to any aspect of the divine worship and formation must be interpretable in the degree and level any might feel comforted and enlightened by.

The Church must respond; for ultimately, a secular interpretation of the sacraments ends before the sacred one. That is to say, all arguments return to Holy mystery and the knowledge of Elohim, and even that which we do here is only to comfort ourselves (in that we have served) and others whom we pray may find paths to reconciliation, wherein all things are in the hand of God.
For the secular world, these things can only serve as a means of apologetics from the faithful, and perhaps a basis for consideration in the conducting of secular affairs which frequently adjusts, and historically has sought the council of scholars both within and without the Church on matters which may have impact on the people. There are those whose efforts seem to attempt to reassure governors that only spiritual people for holy reasons may partake of the sacraments, especially the minor sacraments. Yet do we not know that it is those seeking the light of faith who know it least and need it most? Is it not written "For we know what we woship..."? Therefor the Church and the faithful may err, in hoping to reassure where reassurance has already been given by the Lord. We must not be tempted to a premature effort to gain partial influence, amnesty or acceptance, and deny the Word and wisdom of God. Therefor we must endure further than this, we must remain in the word and through it give those answers religious, social and scientific which the congregation or the world may require of us. We must not only give those answers impartially, we must show that these too are reconciled in his Word, wisdom and love, because it is only this that can give anyone true peace and understanding.
Even the late Gordon Wasson, a most highly respected scholar, confessed that he had elitist feelings, and resented persons he thought too spiritually ignorant and dirty, feeling that they pulled the whole matter, and everyone he felt was sincere and a blessing in our race, down into a realm of mindless and base hedonism.
While we can not know how founded these fears are, we must consider whether any person truly prefers to hear a "placatory diatribe" of politically correct sounding arguments specifically attuned to their preconcieved notions and current preferences, or whether they would be the better aided in body, mind and spirit by making our primary concern clarity and information. We must have faith in others as we have faith in God and believe that persons will in the end agree to be reasonable, kind and just with each other as God would have us be. If my brother is to respect me spiritually and intelectually, and perchance because of that to consider my words, then I cannot having been granted audience, insult his spirit and intelligence through my own lack of courage or forthrightness. By dissolving the barriers of understanding we increase the pathways of Shalom (peace).

Understanding the Sacraments themselves
Mankind has no memory or written record that was present when union with the divine became fixed in the sacraments. No one can say with certainty which of the sacraments preceded which, and indeed even in known sacramental history mankind's degree of reverance and approach to them has been varied.
In the simplest terms, a sacrament reminds us of the love and power of our creator. Every other attachment which may be made to any of the sacraments is ultimately secondary to this. The sacraments heal; and participation in sacramental life is quietly, though vitally, important to the members of the clergy and congregations of the whole world. Traditions associated with the sacraments are extreme by nature, and a good example from our own house is shown in the ancient Essene brother's fear of being excluded from the sacred meal. His willingness to face possible starvation rather than to partake of that which might diminish him in the eyes of the Lord and the Yachad (unity/congrgation) emphasizes the priority placed on the sacraments and sacred life by the faithful both in history and today......"


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

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Re: Christians? [Re: ]
    #1451303 -

Thanks for the back up - really.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christians? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1451443 -

Oh - I thought you were talking to markusthegnostic with the "bite me" - as long as we have resolved the misinformation and biblical misrepresentation issue...I think the rest was superfluous....who could benefit from all that?


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

Edited by curenado (04/11/03 11:29 PM)

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Re: Christians? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1451473 -

it doesnt even have any pictures. only live your life according to books that have pictures, especially ones with giant robots and blaster rays that spray lazer beams.

Amen brotha! :wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Christians? [Re: SHiZNO]
    #1451796 -

"Terror of 'being' was the placenta that accompanied the birth of Christianity, the ultimate cult of domination by the unconstrained male ego. The abandonment of the ego-dissolving rites of visionary plants has allowed what began as an individually maladaptive style to become the guiding image of the entire social organism."

Terrence McKenna - Food of the Gods

My point being that you shouldn't allow Christianity to be your guiding image - esp. if you truly aren't a Christian. Do what YOU think is right. Avoid doing things YOU think are wrong. Plants and fungii are natural occurrences. How can it possibly be wrong to partake of them?


--------------------
There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million

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Re: Christians? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1452202 -

Not a problem Brother Markos. :smile:

Most of the time you are a thoughtful welcome addition to the Shroomery.  I read most of your posts thoroughout the Shroomery.

You know me.  If I am anything, I am fair.

And thanks for your professional, thoughtful, contributions to the Support Group Central.  You have the heart of a care-giver.  The world needs more people like you.

Cheers,

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Re: Christians? [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1453164 -

>I have heard a lot of buddhist monks say that all drugs are bad because the first thing they
make you do is loose control, which you need to meditate.<

Taking this particular Buddhist precept literally, indeed ALL intoxicants are too be avoided because they may cause one to lose control. Rather than simply affecting ones abiity to mediate, the loss of control more importantly may cause one violate other precepts. Kinda like, you get high and the next thing you do you're out banging whores and killing things - (that's already two of the other five precepts you've violated). My personal 'interpretation' of this particular precept is that one should simply avoid those intoxicants that from ones personal experience are prone to cause on to stray from the path of wholesomeness. Take alcohol, for example, something that most Christians have no second thoughts about. Alcohol is something that Buddhists in general avoid. I know that if you pour a few drinks down my throat I end up with the urge to commit unwholesome acts (being unfaithful for example) and do other things I'd otherwise never do. Coke or speed (for me) had the same result as alcohol - and I've learned that these too, should should be avoided at all cost. Tripping? - the last thing i wanna do is stray from the path of righteousness - in fact I'm probably as wholesome as I ever am whilst tripping. Admittedly this may be twisted logic, but it has allowed me as a Buddhist to continue to use psychedelics without hesitation. I think many of us view it in the same manner.


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There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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