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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392347 - 03/12/06 03:50 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I am a vessel to transport genetic information.

I am a human being with genetic information. As I am a volitional, conscious being, I may choose not to transmit my own individual genetic information to another - and most likely will not.

I am managed by genetics and complex biological responses to my environment.

Genetics and biological responses only go so far. I have a volitional consciousness - or rather, am a volitional consciousness. I must expend effort to use my faculty of reason - my genetics and biological responses do not do such work for me. They are not disqualifiers of volition - rather they are conditions of such a causal agent, much as is our range of knowledge, temperament and lifestyles.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392359 - 03/12/06 03:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
How is that conceptual or a construct?




It is a construct because the hypothetical wolfpack is composed of several individual wolves working together to further their own survival. The wolfpack is not a shared consciousness, it is the organization of several independent conscious organisms.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392362 - 03/12/06 03:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yep! The wolves may temporarily band together in a way that furthers each of their own individual chances for survival



Similarly, cells band together to form organs and tissue, which forms organisms.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5392375 - 03/12/06 03:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I have a volitional consciousness

In order for you to have a truly volitional consciousness, not an illusionary volition, a mind/brain duality must exist. Otherwise, you're just a complex parallel processing biological computer.

Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/12/06 04:02 PM)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392381 - 03/12/06 04:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

It is a construct because the hypothetical wolfpack is composed of several individual wolves working together to further their own survival. The wolfpack is not a shared consciousness, it is the organization of several independent conscious organisms.

Precisely correct. The "collective" is actually just individuals interacting in reality.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392388 - 03/12/06 04:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

In order for you to have a truly volitional consciousness, not an illusionary volition, a mind/brain duality must exist.

Is that so? Care to show how you've arrived at such a conclusion?



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392408 - 03/12/06 04:14 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Yep! The wolves may temporarily band together in a way that furthers each of their own individual chances for survival



Similarly, cells band together to form organs and tissue, which forms organisms.




If I remember correctly, you and I had a debate in the past in which you argued that society couldn't be interpreted on a biological level. 

:confused:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392415 - 03/12/06 04:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I don't recall that debate. :confused:

If I did say such a thing, I should point out that I do have a tendency to change my mind every now and then.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392424 - 03/12/06 04:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392464 - 03/12/06 04:28 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You misunderstand me. I never denied that we have a genetic predisposition towards social behavior. I simply said that society couldn't simply be reduced to genetics.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5392469 - 03/12/06 04:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Like I said before, you're brain is a complex parallel processing biological computer. In order for freewill to exist, the mind has to be free from the causal effects of the brain.

The Law of Causality does not allow for something to be caused by nothing. All effects have causes. If your choices are self-caused, the choice would have to exist prior to itself to cause itself, which is impossible. Nature isn't this capricious.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392549 - 03/12/06 04:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

In order for freewill to exist, the mind has to be free from the causal effects of the brain.

Why has it not occurred to you that the mind/consciousness is simply the manifestation of the brain's activity - and that you are your brain?
To say that consciousness is a manifestation of brain activity does not imply that we don't control our mind's activity. Since the mind and the brain are one, to control one's mind is to control one's brain and vice-versa. Mental activity is simply brain activity experienced from an internal, rather than an external perspective.


The Law of Causality does not allow for something to be caused by nothing.

Correct.


If your choices are self-caused, the choice would have to exist prior to itself to cause itself, which is impossible.

The choices themselves are not self-caused - they indeed have causes. It is our volition that is a causal agent. Nor does volition need to "exist prior to itself to cause itself" - it has a cause: the identity of our consciousness.




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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5392638 - 03/12/06 05:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Why has it not occurred to you that the mind/consciousness is simply the manifestation of the brain's activity

I'm an eliminative materialist. That is exactly what I think, but I cannot fathom how freewill could exist. Every effect has a cause and the brain is not free from this law.

It is our volition that is a causal agent.

What is volition, then? A substance? How does volition causally effect the physical brain? Isn't volition also a manifestation of the brain's activity?

A computer can make choices, but it doesn't have freewill. If you wanted to find out why a chess program moved a certian piece to a certian tile, you could read the code and understand exactly what logic lead to this decision. You could take this even further: you could read the code, translate it into machine-code, then to binary-code, and then to the physical hardware.

This is what reductive neurophysiologists do to the human brain.

Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/12/06 05:20 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5394510 - 03/13/06 08:15 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

adjusting free will is like tuning a crystal radio set.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5394720 - 03/13/06 10:23 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

thread: Make your choices free again... Free will exists. Have neurologists found the source of our will ? No.
The one who can't see will as free, lives in his own mental prison and denies the fact of spirituality.

Mind is not only the brain, whoa. It is every part of our body and also realizations of external circumstances, too.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5394756 - 03/13/06 10:37 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

yes it is the cerebellum that permits the tuning in of memories (associations) or tuning them out (among a large group that may be arising simultaneously) - mostly we just think of the cerebellum as a multitimer - something to help by producing coordinating rhythms for muscle coordination and movement, athletic prowess etc.

The prefrontal cortex is very involved in directing associative thought and this amounts to modulating the cerebellum's synthesizer so that you can tune into specific matches among the multiple matches that are constantly arizing in response to impressions.

(here is where the "I want to do this", or "I want to think that" takes place, followed by a tuning in or ramping towards...)

The prefrontal cortex however functions associatively in this act of choosing, so some might say that free will remains arguable (it can be habit - just conditioning, or the illusion of free will can be called merely a learned reflex), however, some groups of associations do have much free-er oriented contexts than others, and so a free spirited being will cultivate these more elusive qualities, and may even cultivate an appreciation for something undefinable.

the results of this approach are not arguable. mechanistic perhaps in composition, but very spiritual in effect.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5394853 - 03/13/06 11:10 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you redgreenvines for actualizing my knowledge. But doesn't it still seem that we are free to tune in our cerebellum to whatever kind of 'attention' we want to percieve (out of memory and actual context, as well as from our outer and external reality) ?
As famous philosophers say: We are free to choose the different.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5394942 - 03/13/06 11:38 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

the inner and outer realities are combined together in holographic glimpses. there is no separation at all.

we adjust the tuningforks of our minds to invoke more from parts we are attracted to.

we are free to ask questions - to invoke questing, and in so doing establish more or less freedom. to navigate into more free contexts.

I guess because it is such a mechanicalprocess, much of the agonizing about anything including free will is just so much pinballing around in our own tilted gameworlds. and that hardly seems free at all - just reflexive and dark noisy action with preprogrammed flashes.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5394973 - 03/13/06 11:46 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hehe, it is an art to bring innner and outer context into harmony :lol:
Keyword is 'attention',which it seems, very view humans have under their control :laugh:
What causes our attention ? And now, to come back to topic...is it will ? Is it its illusion of it, known as ego ? Is it pure external ? Is it internal ?
What does knowledge play in the role of attention ?

And....(drums rolling).... what does this make evil ?

Very fucking complex, it seems...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (03/13/06 12:21 PM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5395289 - 03/13/06 01:48 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Have neurologists found the source of our will ? No.

Its hard to find something which doesn't exist.  :tongue:

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