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InvisibleIcelander
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Sorcery, the journey of return.
    #6920284 - 05/15/07 02:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

According to Carlos Castaneda's Don Juan anyway, there was a time according to him that humans possessed silent knowledge. Knowing without thinking. (Intuitive knowing) He called it seeing. When mankind began his self reflection he kicked himself out of Eden so to speak. Self obsession and self importance began to rule our being and our way of relating to our world and everything. The path of Sorcery then is a way of returning to silent knowledge by dethroning self-importance as our primary way of relating to our experience. Once obsessive thinking about ourselves is reduced or stopped for a time then we again experience silent awareness and are guided by a clear channel of intuition. Don Juan called it moving the assemblage point. The assemblage point is sort of a point of focus inside our awareness. When it moves we can experience things in very different ways then we could were it glued to another spot.

"When self-importance is curtailed, the energy it requires is no longer expended. That increased energy then serves as the springboard that launches the assemblage point, automatically and without premeditation, into an inconceivable journey."

Could this be what all of us that claim a spiritual quest are really longing for?

"Once the assemblage point has moved, the movement itself entails moving from self-reflection, and this, in turn, assures a clear connecting link with the spirit. After all, it was self-reflection that had disconnected man from the spirit in the first place."

Now here's something interesting and maybe disturbing for some of us.

"Our difficulty with this simple progression is that most of us are unwilling to accept that we need so little to get on with. We are geared to expect instruction, teaching, guides, masters. And when we are told that we need no one, we don't believe it. We become nervous, then distrustful, and finally angry and disappointed. If we need help, it is not in methods, but in emphasis If someone makes us aware that we need to curtail or self-importance, that help is real.
  Sorcerers say we should need no one to convince us that the world in infinitely more complex than our wildest fantasies. So, why are we dependent? Why do we crave someone to guide us when we can do it ourselves? Big question, eh?"


So who moves the assemblage point? According to Don Juan, the spirit does it. According to DJ there are no techniques in sorcery at all. The only thing that matters is moving the assemblage point to a place of silent knowledge and we can't do it because the spirit does it. It does it when we have enough free energy to call the spirit to us or create a clear channel between ourselves and the spirit. Self -importance is where all of our energy gets tied up and so we have none to call the spirit. The spirit or intent responds to energy according to DJ. So all our petty bullshit, self pity, self-importance, indulging, at every turn etc. all during our daily lives keeps us trapped exactly where we are no matter how spiritual we want to be or claim to be. It's right at the grass roots so to speak that the problem is solved. It's illusive because it's too obvious for us to see it. Our self-importance blinds us. Our complete focus on ourselves keeps us from seeing anything else even though it's right there.


OK now, for the record I'm not saying any of this is true or false. But it's worth contemplating don't you think? Especially in light of all the chasing spirituality and enlightenment that seems to go on throughout the ages, with so little results. (This last part IS my opinion);)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6920369 - 05/15/07 02:59 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

you don't hear of those who have found 'results' because they have no need to contemplate or share the details of such an occurrence.

"...After all, it was self-reflection that had disconnected man from the spirit in the first place."
interesting..


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Offlinesuave
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Registered: 04/23/07
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Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6920422 - 05/15/07 03:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I like to think of the the self reflection as the internal voice or internal dialogue that man has become accustomed to inside. Shut it down and you become your true self. You become one with "god" and flow along with the winds instead of against them in the ways that your ego would have you do.

In the garden of eden, lucifer looked upon a body of water and saw his reflection and fell in love with his beauty. This passage demonstrates the metaphor well. The illusory self that we create inside of us commonly but not properly understood as the ego, causes the torment of our lives through the thoughts that we vibrate out of us to the god channels of the universe around us. The universe takes that signal and sends more of it to you.

Big reason why you should keep your thinking always positive.

"Once the assemblage point has moved, the movement itself entails moving from self-reflection, and this, in turn, assures a clear connecting link with the spirit. After all, it was self-reflection that had disconnected man from the spirit in the first place."

This is another way of demonstrating what i was saying in the thread i started. You shut down your self-reflection aka your ego aka the inner turmoil of constantly judging and thinking, and your channel becomes "clear". The infinite field of possibilities demonstrates itself.


:thumbup:

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6920437 - 05/15/07 03:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I am about to do you a great disservice and tell you what i think of your post:

I loved it. Concise, unpretentious, displaying your usual depth of contemplation and humanistic (un)common sense. :thumbup:

Sorry.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6920459 - 05/15/07 03:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But it's worth contemplating don't you think?




As soon as I meet someone that can actually do it.


--------------------

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6920466 - 05/15/07 03:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Those are pretty profound excerpts. I have nothing to say, they speak for themselves.

We wander around aimlessly, finding our selves in everything we see and wonder where truth is. It is within and without.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Offlinesuave
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6920480 - 05/15/07 03:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

But it's worth contemplating don't you think?




As soon as I meet someone that can actually do it.





you doubt you do, so i doubt you ever will.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: suave]
    #6920612 - 05/15/07 03:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

All right, you two, get a room, in the other thread. :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6920630 - 05/15/07 03:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
All right, you two, get a room, in the other thread. :smirk:




And since we're talking about getting rooms... :naughty:

:strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6920633 - 05/15/07 03:53 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

All right, gentlemen, excuse me for a few weeks... :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6920947 - 05/15/07 04:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

saw that coming, funny I was gonna tell you two to get a room in a thread a few days back..

I was laying in bed thinking of this self-reflection separation from spirit thing..

Assume you were split from your spirit as a result of your self-reflection. How do you become one with it again? It is said that if you just 'drop everything' and 'go with the flow' 'it will happen'. I think that is only a method one uses to accommodate oneself. A person has to reach a certain point before they are able to achieve what Icelander was talking about in the OP, and I think self-reflection is a step along the way. A necessary step. At least in todays society where we are seemingly born without spirit and must find it.


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

Edited by elbisivni (05/15/07 05:04 PM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6920964 - 05/15/07 05:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Veritas beat you to it. :tongue:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6920977 - 05/15/07 05:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:loveeyes:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6920998 - 05/15/07 05:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

their should be a limit put on your usage of :loveeyes: and :strokebeard:


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6921009 - 05/15/07 05:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

elbisivni said:
their should be a limit put on your usage of :loveeyes: and :strokebeard:




Ohh but there are so many other emoticons out there that can be used :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: elbisivni]
    #6921017 - 05/15/07 05:12 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

At least the Moderator sould make some attempt to keep my thread on topic. :rofl2:

I really don't have great expectations though.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6921387 - 05/15/07 06:43 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

As you know, I tend more towards psychology than spirituality, per se, and so I dislike the overly-ornate terminology used to describe what seem to be fundamental cognitive shifts.

If we are constantly reacting to events in our lives as though they are emergencies, of course we will have little attention for the quiet messages from our intuition and/or non-emergency emotional states.  The process of shifting our cognition away from reactionary habits does not require sorcery, but rather calm rationality. 

Just as those who criticize the ego, and advise "losing" our necessary personality structure, miss the point of the potential helpful nature of the ego, I believe that Carlos Castenada was missing the great potential of the rational mind.  It is not necessary for our cognition to be self-obsessed, and we do not need to revert to some idyllic, pre-Homo Sapiens Sapiens brain structure in order to maximize our experience of living.

However much we may wish to return to "the garden," where we could live without worrying, be in the moment, and be guided purely by intuition, the fact is that we have moved on, and for good reason!

The trouble is that we confuse our abilities (coulds) with mandates (shoulds) or inevitabilities (wills), and get stuck in cognitive ruts.  Because we can visualize the past, imagine the future, we believe that we should do so at all times, or even that we cannot avoid doing so at all times. :tongue:  Silly monkeys.

The new brain will be in the driver's seat, whether we dream of steering with the old brain or not.  The question is, will that driver be clutching the wheel, overcome by Road Rage, drinking coffee and eating a sandwich while talking on the cell phone, or will that driver be calmly cruising through everyday life?

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6921588 - 05/15/07 07:40 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I feel that if one focuses only on the material/rational aspects of thought that one limits the self to utilizing only a small percentage of their creative potential. This is merely the view of my current preference so what is correct for me may not be exactly true for others.

I have one question though. How can you question the validity of ideas and techniques that...while they may not be your choice....undeniably work for others? I have had tremendous success with techniques and ideas that could be ascribed to shamanism or sorcery. So why would you assume that these ideas are ineffective or inferior to your "rational" methods. As you may be aware our minds are as diverse as the other aspects of our selves and our cognitive processes cannot be generalized very effectively. My first major in college was psychology, and I completed a wide array of coursework in that field. What it taught me more than anything was that modern psychologists have not even begun to fathom the depths of the human mind due largely to the individual natures that we posses. I feel that Castaneda's works borrowed from and displayed practical knowledge of wisdom traditions that had many more years of practical experience behind them than the techniques of modern psychology.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleAlephOne
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6921609 - 05/15/07 07:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sure it's relevant to the discussion to point out that Castaneda was a fraud, and Don Juan didn't really exist.

It isn't ad hominem if it isn't a person. :eyebrow:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6921650 - 05/15/07 07:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
At least the Moderator sould make some attempt to keep my thread on topic. :rofl2:

I really don't have great expectations though.




Please, its no different than any of the excursions you and Veritas have been involved in. :shrug:

If you really want it, I will remove the entirety of the short aside. I've considered doing it before. The next time you Veritas and huehue have a friendly aside I'll be sure to dump it as well. I've never seen anything like this disrupt the on-topic discussion but if you want a strict, unflowing discussion with no sense of community spirit or fun then so be it. :shrug: Its your decision.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6921671 - 05/15/07 08:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Where did I say that we should focus only on the material/rational aspects of thought?  I believe that my point was that our "normal," reactive mental pattern prevented us from experiencing the other aspects of our cognition.  :confused:

My take on the techniques proposed by Casteneda is that they "trick" us into disrupting our habitual irrational cognition, and allow us to experience the full complexity of our lives.  I have no problem with his techniques, but the framework he has proposed does not work for me.

If you believe that psychologists, in general, do not comprehend the complexity of the human mind, I think that your exposure to psychology has been limited to the Social Science approach.  Jung, Maslow, Ellis, Reich and others have delved more deeply into the psyche, and integrated many ancient concepts into their studies of human cognition.

I find Castenada interesting, and his framework entertaining, but I see all the terminology and ideology as unnecessary to convey the central ideas.  Ultimately, I simply prefer my ideas without all the frippery.  :shrug:

Edited by Veritas (05/15/07 08:11 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6921692 - 05/15/07 08:10 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Sheesh, FWG, did you notice the :rofl2:??

He was joking.

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Invisibleelbisivni
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6921720 - 05/15/07 08:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

i want a pet pyrrharctia isabella :yesnod:


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6921722 - 05/15/07 08:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

You have to realize it is hard to tell with Icelander sometimes, for me at least. :wink: You're his soulmate, not me. :tongue:

:heartpump:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6921809 - 05/15/07 08:37 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I think that your exposure to psychology has been limited to the Social Science approach




I don't know why you would make such an assumption because I have never mentioned my background as a psychology student to you. In reality I am very well acquainted with the works of Jung and Maslow, and I feel the most affinity with Maslow, but even he only defined a narrow spectrum of human experience. This seems to be a nasty habit with psychologists. Their interpretations of behavior...and the symptoms of disorders have more in common with their school of thought than observed behavior. I will admit that I was never properly exposed to Ellis and I cannot judge his works.

Quote:

Ultimately, I simply prefer my ideas without all the frippery




Just as ancient engineers have been shown to have beeen as competent as modern engineers with the limitations and materials that they had at their disposal, ancient shamans were just as competent with the technology of cognition. That is a technology over 50,000 years old. The vocabulary of cognition that was developed to explain these concepts is much more specific than the vocabulary that is currently in use by modern psychology which is not properly 100 years old yet. To ignore the vast work of primitive knowledge in this area is a serious mistake for modern science, but displays the typical arrogance of modern man. There is much superstition in many of these ancient ideas...no doubt, but superstition is present in nearly every culture. The field that I work in...technology...has reams of associated superstition.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: AlephOne]
    #6921859 - 05/15/07 08:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlephOne said:
I'm sure it's relevant to the discussion to point out that Castaneda was a fraud, and Don Juan didn't really exist.

It isn't ad hominem if it isn't a person. :eyebrow:




Since you have no personal knowledge of your claims they are just as useless and irrelevant as those who claim that it's all true. And it is not relevant to this discussion as I never brought any of this into it. So how about lets stick to the subject at hand.:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6921867 - 05/15/07 08:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

OK now, for the record I'm not saying any of this is true or false. But it's worth contemplating don't you think?

Nope.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6921876 - 05/15/07 08:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
At least the Moderator sould make some attempt to keep my thread on topic. :rofl2:

I really don't have great expectations though.




Please, its no different than any of the excursions you and Veritas have been involved in. :shrug:

If you really want it, I will remove the entirety of the short aside. I've considered doing it before. The next time you Veritas and huehue have a friendly aside I'll be sure to dump it as well. I've never seen anything like this disrupt the on-topic discussion but if you want a strict, unflowing discussion with no sense of community spirit or fun then so be it. :shrug: Its your decision.




Well I was joking.;)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: AlephOne]
    #6921920 - 05/15/07 08:59 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

It really doesn't matter if Castaneda published fiction. I have studied shamanism for over two decades and practiced it for nearly one. It is beyond dispute that Castaneda had a deep knowledge of primitive religion, philosophy, and shamanism as far I have been able to discern. This makes his writings quite relevant to the modern consideration of that field. I personally think that Castaneda was attempting an update of that field for modern readers. His writings are works that I feel have great validity and deep artistic merit.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6921930 - 05/15/07 09:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I believe that Carlos Castaneda was missing the great potential of the rational mind. It is not necessary for our cognition to be self-obsessed, and we do not need to revert to some idyllic, pre-Homo Sapiens Sapiens brain structure in order to maximize our experience of living.


While I agree with your post I'm not sure that Castaneda was missing the great potential of the rational mind. Remember you are getting all this second hand as you have not read the book I'm referring to here. I'm not claiming that I can accurately interpret what Castaneda means. It's just what I think he means.

Great store is placed on sobriety and rational thinking as part of the warriors way in all of his books. If you read them you might agree some of the discussions seem quite cerebral and rational. He never to my knowledge suggested we revert to some pre homo sapien sapien brain structure or way of thinking. IMO he is stating that we have discontinued and are mostly unable to use because of the way we use our neo cortex, this thing called silent knowing. I know I used the word intuition but he did not. He said that intuition was a vestige of our awareness of silent knowing if I remember correctly. I think that you and he are basically in agreement as to where the problem lies. The methods and goals of sorcery and psychology might differ is some ways or to some degrees however.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6921938 - 05/15/07 09:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

we have discontinued and are mostly unable to use because of the way we use our neo cortex, this thing called silent knowing




This occurred when man developed objective thought and ceased to be like the other animals in that respect. The path of the shaman is to return to the animal state...silent knowledge...or the Garden of Eden if one prefers.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: falcon]
    #6921939 - 05/15/07 09:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Since you have no personal knowledge of your claims they are just as useless and irrelevant as those who claim that it's all true.



:rofl2:
Yeah, that's why I said it.  I'm just making shit up here.  Richard de Mille too.  Because investigative journalism is just bullshit.  Evidence of plagarism and outright fabrication is all in the imagination as long as it's inconvenient enough.

Quote:

And it is not relevant to this discussion as I never brought any of this into it.



This must have been a flashback then:
Quote:

According to Carlos Castaneda's Don Juan anyway, there was a time according to him that humans possessed silent knowledge. Knowing without thinking. (Intuitive knowing) He called it seeing.
...
Don Juan called it moving the assemblage point. The assemblage point is sort of a point of focus inside our awareness. When it moves we can experience things in very different ways then we could were it glued to another spot.




Appealing to pretend people isn't a good way of advancing a case.

Now, that certainly doesn't mean that you can't talk about it.  So lets do that.  The idea is patently absurd.  Intelligence exists to coordinate observations in order to make deductions and inferences.  This is self-evident.  If it didn't provide us with a selective advantage, and, indeed, if active thought were harmful, it wouldn't exist.  The time at which we didn't have the cognitive ability for abstraction and symbolic thought (that would be the time of non-thinking) was the time when our distant pre-human ancestors were acting on instinct alone.  Now, my dog has some intelligence, but is not capable of abstraction or symbolic thought.  Actually, that's true of most mammals.  I have yet to meet a sorcerer dog.

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: AlephOne]
    #6921953 - 05/15/07 09:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Richard DeMille's book showed only cursory understanding of Castaneda's works. It was the product of a personal vendetta against Castaneda due to the fact that Castaneda would not collaborate on a biography with him. DeMille admitted this in his book. Castaneda's Journey was utter unresearched and ill thought out bullshit.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: AlephOne]
    #6921958 - 05/15/07 09:10 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I have yet to meet a sorcerer dog.




You haven't met Leonard.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6922066 - 05/15/07 09:34 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You haven't met Leonard.




Curses! I have been foiled again by faulty induction! :dead:

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: AlephOne]
    #6922078 - 05/15/07 09:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)



His eyes shine with timeless wisdom.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: AlephOne]
    #6922272 - 05/15/07 10:30 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Appealing to pretend people isn't a good way of advancing a case. Once again you pretend you know something you don't.

It's really irreverent who existed and who did not. The ideas stand or fall on their merit and as I stated I wasn't saying I believed it or not. So can you get over yourself here.


Now, that certainly doesn't mean that you can't talk about it. So lets do that. The idea is patently absurd. Intelligence exists to coordinate observations in order to make deductions and inferences. This is self-evident. If it didn't provide us with a selective advantage, and, indeed, if active thought were harmful, it wouldn't exist. The time at which we didn't have the cognitive ability for abstraction and symbolic thought (that would be the time of non-thinking) was the time when our distant pre-human ancestors were acting on instinct alone. Now, my dog has some intelligence, but is not capable of abstraction or symbolic thought. Actually, that's true of most mammals. I have yet to meet a sorcerer dog.


Nowhere did I state nor did Castaneda as far as I know, that logical thinking and thought was unimportant or unnecessary, but that we had other faculties that that we had ceased to use that were of great benefit to us. This idea of silent knowing may or may not be true but you haven't addressed the topic.

So if you want to start a thread about whether Castaneda was a fraud or not go for it. It's been talked to death here already but I think that you would enjoy hearing yourself pontificate.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6923388 - 05/16/07 04:39 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ultimately, I simply prefer my ideas without all the frippery.




It should also be noted that if the average person were to evaluate either of our ideas about philosophy they would likely dismiss all of it as pure nonsense whichever angle one took. That has been my experience discussing philosophy of any sort with "normal" people I meet in the course of my day to day life.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6923429 - 05/16/07 05:21 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think, that when a human being is born these days, for example when I was born, I was in this "Garden of Eden" of silent knowledge, of this knowing without thinking state. (Or maybe i wasn't? I'm not sure, sorry, but let's pretend.) At least self reflection came a few years after my birth. Maybe my intuition told me, my silent knowledge told me, to start self reflection... So, thinking is an act, initiated by intuition, for whatever purpose... Maybe no purpose at all. Just I intuitively knew, that it is good for me... So... If I really believe my intuition... I must believe, that thinking is good for me... So thinking is good...

(Shamanism... For me the shaman is the spirit guide. The one, who knows the other planes, and can navigate the lost souls. In this way, the psychologist is the shaman. Only the name differs, and there are bad psychologists, who maybe don't deserve their title...)


--------------------
So dreaming let's you know reality exists.



I don't belive. I fear.

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Bard]
    #6925135 - 05/16/07 01:30 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

So, thinking is an act, initiated by intuition,

Whether this is so is speculative. However I really don't believe that thinking per se is a problem or the one Castaneda is refering to. Obsessive self-reflection would be closer to the mark IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6925213 - 05/16/07 01:53 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think that this is the quote which I read as implying that more-evolved thinking was undesirable:

Once the assemblage point has moved, the movement itself entails moving from self-reflection, and this, in turn, assures a clear connecting link with the spirit. After all, it was self-reflection that had disconnected man from the spirit in the first place.

Self-reflection is what makes us what we are, homo sapiens sapiens, thinking thinking man. We are able to reflect upon ourselves, upon our thoughts, to take a step back from our reactions to events & consider what we might do differently.

While it might be true that obsessive thinking could separate us from spirit, or at least interfere with our enjoyment of being alive, I cannot see how self-reflection, in and of itself, would disconnect us.

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6925262 - 05/16/07 02:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

In my opinion this is a matter of semantics. From what I recall, the “thinking” Castaneda was mentioning were in fact questions with a paranoid attitude. By thinking I understand something more lucid and elaborate and also something based on logic, which was not the case presented there since all he did was a constant denial that there might of been more to reality then his eyes could see and his ears could hear. That is fixed thinking, which also, in my opinion, puts a stop to getting further into a lucid inquire. Having the thought that he was being fooled by some master-tricks of Don Juan is not a healthy attitude and does not sustain any form of rational since, having that in mind, he continued being Don Juan’s apprentice.
So, in my opinion, what Don Juan was disagreeing was that paranoid attitude and not thinking itself. Sometimes putting too many questions are an impediment to real thinking because they confuse us even more. Trying to find equivalent from the material in the esoteric is like thinking your meditative state. This is all about mind states and having to put a stop to ones thoughts for a period does not exclude the ability to think in other circumstances. More to that, I think we get out more of any experience if we use them both in the right circumstances.


--------------------
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
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Here is true peace
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6925688 - 05/16/07 03:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

More evolved thinking...as you put it...is very suitable to rational tasks, but quite undesirable for non rational based functions such as creative thought. I do not think Castaneda ever considered complex thought undesirable, as he was very invested in his intellectual achievements and often said so. I do think that he thought that there was also a time and place for more basic thought as well. Both forms of thought are nothing but tools with specific uses. Self reflection IS what separates us from other species...and the true seat of power for homosapien, but it is also the root of misery for our species as well.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6925852 - 05/16/07 04:50 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

but it is also the root of misery for our species as well.




Only because, without that capacity, we could not engage in neurotic thinking. Self-reflection does not cause misery, but it can be utilized ineffectively through what CC refers to as indulgence and self-importance.

To say that self-reflection is the root of human misery is akin to saying that having opposable thumbs is the root of stabbing yourself with a knife.

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6925896 - 05/16/07 05:04 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, and that was what I intended to mean.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6925921 - 05/16/07 05:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

What?  You mean we agree, as usual.  How boring.  :wink:

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6927380 - 05/16/07 10:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
According to Carlos Castaneda's Don Juan anyway, there was a time according to him that humans possessed silent knowledge. Knowing without thinking. He called it seeing. When mankind began his self reflection he kicked himself out of Eden so to speak.



Yep evolution's a bitch :crazy2:. The period of silent knowledge sounds to me like the period when humans didn't have language, the period when there was no internal dialoge, the period when we unintillegent.

Quote:

Icelander said:The path of Sorcery then is a way of returning to silent knowledge by dethroning self-importance as our primary way of relating to our experience.




Im going to side with Veritas here and say de-evolving and obsessive thinking aren't necesary, that it is in front not behind where we should look. I do agree that the ego must be kept in check, but that is what we have that wonderful internal dialogue for. I know am just an animal here but dethroning self-importance? Now i have to side with Ayn Rand and disagree with that. Dethroning my self-importance would extinguish the fire inside. Just sit back and kill motivation?

Quote:

Icelander said:Once obsessive thinking about ourselves is reduced or stopped for a time then we again experience silent awareness and are guided by a clear channel of intuition.




Whether it sounds like it or not, I DO understand where you are coming from, I do know the type of thinking/people you are talking about. We must keep ourselves in check by whichever technique we prefer.

Quote:

Veritas said:
The new brain will be in the driver's seat, whether we dream of steering with the old brain or not.  The question is, will that driver be clutching the wheel, overcome by Road Rage, drinking coffee and eating a sandwich while talking on the cell phone, or will that driver be calmly cruising through everyday life?




              :thumbup:

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6928509 - 05/17/07 03:42 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:karatechop: thanks for the info!!! really tho


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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: LosAngelesGraff]
    #6928842 - 05/17/07 07:25 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

blah, i should have read more thoroughly :crazy:

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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6929942 - 05/17/07 12:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The collective consciousness gives ideas to the individual. The chronological life is a conscious thought as well.
1913: Watson said that the subject matter of psychology should be behavior, not consciousness and gives allegations that consciousness is a hangover from our superstitious pre-scientific past, akin to belief in witchcraft. 1971 Skinner: in ‘Beyond freedom and dignity’, extends the work done with monkeys into the human realm; a deterministic denial of freedom in the post existentialist pre internet age. As Pavlov goes so is the power of rejection as we find new ways to describe its path to the genetic core. Casuistic anomalies find the way to reality. So there is The teachings of Don Juan followed by a Different Reality and The Clan of the Cave Bear followed by Valley of the horses by Auel. Agreement? According to sophism the truth is just a matter of votes / (therefore) the idea of magic is all-powerful. Said the millions.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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