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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda)
    #5386694 - 03/10/06 06:57 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Recently I noticed that all major religions - including practice described by Carlos Castaneda - share one comment element. They all see the sense of self (Ego, pride, vanity) as the worst enemy one has to face on the path of self-discovery, knowing God or enlightenment.

BUDDHISM

"Buddhism stresses the importance of shedding the ego, the sense of a self-identity. Pride is seen as not letting go of this sense of self. The Diamond Sutra explains that one cannot reach enlightenment without letting go of this sense of self and pride." --Diamond Sutra, Beliefnet

CHRISTIANITY

"According to Christian teachers, the essential vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastity, anger, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind." --C.S. Lewis, Beliefnet


ISLAM

"Islam teaches that pride is what caused the downfall of Iblis, the devil in Islam, when he refused to obey God's commandment to prostrate himself before Adam.The Qur'an explains in several verses that Allah disapproves of arrogance. "And swell not thy cheek (for pride) at men, nor walk in insolence through the earth; for Allah loveth not any arrogant boaster (Surah 31:18)," it states." --Qur'an, Beliefnet

CASTANEDA'S TEACHINGS

"Self-importance is the force generated by man's self-image. For this reason, the thrust of the warrior's way is to dethrone self-importance. And everything sorcerers do is toward accomplishing this goal." --Carlost Castaneda, Power of Silence

PRACTICAL POINT IN ALL THIS

This all sounds nice and philosophical and of no real importance to our everyday life's. That's what I thought about it anyway. Now this all changed recently. I've started to embark on the journey of healing by the use of psychedelic (transpersonal) psychotherapy, which is still practiced underground by numerous therapists and groups who follow the map and doctrine of famous psychiatrist Stanislav Grof, who has been doing this kind of work for more than three decades.

It is generally acceptable fact that during the course of this kind of therapy comes a point where one must face total ego annihilation (not just an experience of 'death' and going onto the afterlife). Grof explains this as follows:

"The ego death involves an experience of the destruction of everything that the subject is, possesses, or is attached to. Its essential characteristics are a sense of total annihilation on all imaginable levels, loss of all systems of relation and reference, and destruction of the objective world. In the final stages, the subjects have to face and confront experiences, situations and circumstances that are unacceptable or even unimaginable to them." --Grof, LSD Psychotherapy

Once this is faced and integrated, the individual is free from all pathologies such as anxieties, depressions, is constantly aware of the beauty all around him, feels incredible compassion for all fellow human beings, etc. What really dies in the process is the notion of frightened false self - the Ego that we have been identifying with our entire lives.

What Grof also noted in his work "Beyond the Brain" was that if one has closed-in on this experience but never fully went through it, funny things start to happen.

"It has happened on number of occasions that various dangerous events and circumstances started to accumulate in the lives of the subjects who in their LSD sessions were approaching the experience of ego death. And, conversely, they cleared up in an almost magical way when this process was completed. It seemed as if these individuals had to face, for some reason, the experience of annihilation, but they had the choice of doing so in a symbolic way in the inner world or facing it in reality." -Grof, Beyond the Brain

So it seems that Ego death can be faced while still 'alive' or at the latest by dying for real. The practical point I'm trying to make is that we will all face it at one time or another. We will all die. There is no way out of it. It seems that there isn't only darkness and oblivion into nothing when we die. We must first shed our skins.

People who are having the most problems with this process (in LSD psychotherapy anyway) are the ones who have developed a strong sense of self and who are full of pride. You can imagine the suffering one endures then when his ego is dissolving then. What's also interesting is what Bible has to say about punishment in Hell for those whose sin was pride: they ('re ego) will be broken on the wheel (before they enter haven).

So from the practical point of view, it is good to develop humility and loose the sense of self-importance and identification with the ego. Not only for those on the spiritual path and seeking more meaningful life, but for all of us who want the transition of death (symbolic or real) to be as painless as possible.

CASTANEDA - AGAIN

Now how does one go about doing that? Castaneda (Don Juan) goes on to say

"Self-importance is a monster that has three thousand heads. And one can face up to it and destroy it in any of three ways. The first way is to sever each head one at a time; the second is to reach that mysterious state of being called the place of no pity, which destroys self-importance by slowly starving it; and the third is to pay for the instantaneous annihilation of the three-thousand-headed monster with one's symbolic death. Consider yourself fortunate if you get the chance to choose. For it is the spirit that usually determines which way the sorcerer is to go, and it is the duty of the sorcerer to follow." --Castaneda, Power of Silence

I believe the 'symbolic death' can be understood as the final ego death in psychedelic psychotherapy, but how about the other ones? I would love to hear from different religion views or your personal experience on this. How to develop humbleness and slowly starve the sense of self and self-importance? What do you think would be the most practical way for any of these options?


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #5386976 - 03/10/06 08:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

a strong belief that a separation exists between the body and the world, and possibly between the body and the self, sometimes extended to postulation of a separate soul beyond the self.
it is one thing, not 2,3 or 4.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5387177 - 03/10/06 09:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

you say ego dissolution is hardest for the prideful, but what of the fearful?

It seems like I should have had ego death the night I tripped out really bad on weed (really really bad) and I have the opportunity to do mescaline soon.

I'm reluctant to go into ego death or even approach it though....

you say you are undergoing psychedelic psychoterhapy..... on your own or have you found practitioners? If so you obviously couldn't divulge their identities but how do you go about finding such people? It is something that I could use a handle on.

so can you meditate into ego loss on a moderate psychedelic dose, such as by focusing on the heart chakra or something of the sorts?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (03/10/06 09:57 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: leery11]
    #5388450 - 03/11/06 09:55 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

you can meditate and so reconnect,
egoloss is not a goal
it is a temorary side effect.

i think we make such a big deal about it because we are territorial creatures, it trips up the person you are talking with

remember that carly simon song?
"you probably think this song is about you, don't you ? don't you?"

you're so vain
really you're naturally defensive/territorial.

the defensive quandry is something everyone relates to so the topic becomes ego instead of totality.


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: leery11]
    #5388608 - 03/11/06 11:21 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:you say ego dissolution is hardest for the prideful, but what of the fearful?




Well, we all face fear once we move out of our comfort zone. I have decided to go on this path exactly because I want to resolve my issues of anxiety and panic. And although the therapy of this kind is helpful, there is always fear present before and during the psychedelic experience and especially when the total ego death experience is being approached. I guess you just have to decide to keep on moving forwards, no matter what. But it is hard. There's no doubt about it.

Quote:

leery11 said: I'm reluctant to go into ego death or even approach it though.... you say you are undergoing psychedelic psychoterhapy..... on your own or have you found practitioners? If so you obviously couldn't divulge their identities but how do you go about finding such people? It is something that I could use a handle on.




The fact is that if one uses psychedelic over a period of time, in an inwards-directed way (lying down, eyes closed) one will eventually come to the point of ego death. You can afcourse use psychedelics indefinitely and never have this kind of experience if your awareness during trips is directed outwards - to the 'real' world.

If you're interested in psychedelic psychotherapy I suggest you start with the book 'LSD Psychotherapy' written by Stanislav Grof. A lot of therapists and students of Grof now use Holotrophic Breathwork (www.breathwork.com) in the same way as they used psychedelics in the old days with great success, so you may want to contact one to near you live. Also you may want to check out things like 'Santo Daime' church, Eleusis treatment center, MAPS.org, shamanic workshops and retreats, etc. You will find the people you seek there. I don't advise you to follow this path alone though. It's just too dangerous.


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5388618 - 03/11/06 11:25 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:a strong belief that a separation exists between the body and the world, and possibly between the body and the self, sometimes extended to postulation of a separate soul beyond the self. it is one thing, not 2,3 or 4




Yes, I agree. But I wonder how does one shed this illusion in practical terms. If I simply say and even convince myself that 'I am everything' I will not shed my ego, but grossly enlarge it, because there will still be a sense of 'I'.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #5389559 - 03/11/06 05:42 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The worst enemy mankind faces is "the sense of self"? BULLSHIT. Pride, Ego, and Vanity are NOT the worst enemy we face, and none of those are at all harmful in control which stems from intelligent thinking, rationality and awareness.

I'll tell you what the worst enemy of mankind is. The man [or should say masses] without a purpose - not a sadist, murderer, or dictator or people with "a sense of self". The fact is that Sadism, dictatorship or any form of evil is consequential of an evasion of reality - an evasion of one's failure to reason. The man without a purpose is the man who drifts at the mercy of random feelings or unidentified urges, and is capable of any evil because he is totally out of control of his own life.
In order to be in control of your life you have to have a purpose - a productive purpose.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5389608 - 03/11/06 06:02 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The fact is that Sadism, dictatorship or any form of evil is consequential of an evasion of reality - an evasion of one's failure to reason.

How did you come to this conclusion? I think its equally possible for a person to delude themself into total pascifism as it is total sadism. Evading reality can lead to many different extremist ends.

The man without a purpose is the man who drifts at the mercy of random feelings or unidentified urges, and is capable of any evil because he is totally out of control of his own life.

Simply having a purpose doesn't prevent you from performing terribly irrational acts that accomplish nothing more than spread suffering. Racists, religious zealots, Marxists and similar dogmatic revolutionary groups all have a clear purpose, yet are willing to perform 'evil' with a clear conscience. I'm much more worried about these purposeful people than some ideological drifters.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5389723 - 03/11/06 06:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

How did you come to this conclusion?

Such evil behavior stems from ignorance, plain and simple.


Simply having a purpose doesn't prevent you from performing terribly irrational acts that accomplish nothing more than spread suffering.

Having a productive, purpose - productively achieving moral, rational values in accordance to a higher purpose - that is what I'm talking about. Being evil and sinister is rather counter-productive to mankind, is it not?


Racists, religious zealots, Marxists and similar dogmatic revolutionary groups all have a clear purpose, yet are willing to perform 'evil' with a clear conscience. I'm much more worried about these purposeful people than some ideological drifters.

But, without the ideological drifters, they would have no power, no pawns of evil. It is because of the philosophical laziness, i.e., the refusal or inability to think in these purpose-less people that racism [et al] is able to subsist. Only when people gain sufficient knowledge, do such evils vanish - much like the dark disappears in presence of light.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (03/11/06 06:51 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #5390188 - 03/11/06 09:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

my comment below
Quote:

redtailedhawk said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:a strong belief that a separation exists between the body and the world, and possibly between the body and the self, sometimes extended to postulation of a separate soul beyond the self. it is one thing, not 2,3 or 4




Yes, I agree. But I wonder how does one shed this illusion in practical terms. If I simply say and even convince myself that 'I am everything' I will not shed my ego, but grossly enlarge it, because there will still be a sense of 'I'.




by regarding the contact between parts of the body (in various postures)and the world, eg floor and feet, chair and bum, mattress and back/or side & air and nose, air and lungs... food and....

by regarding mental contents and how they shift
by regarding conditioning and how memory operates

by regarding how attitude makes positive influences in mind
in body and in world.

this prescription has everything to do with separation and interface or connection... the shift of emphasis makes a difference


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #5390328 - 03/11/06 10:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Private, soon the be Public, Enemy #1 is yourSelf.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #5390412 - 03/11/06 11:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

They all see the sense of self (Ego, pride, vanity) as the worst enemy one has to face on the path of self-discovery, knowing God or enlightenment.

If the "sense of self", e.g. ego, is "The Worst Enemy", then whom is it that leads yourself to success in any endeavor? Someone or something that..isn't you? -=knocks on your skull=- Hello? Anybody home?

If the "sense of self" is one's greatest enemy, and their ultimate "spiritual" goal is to erase any sense of self-worth (pride), self-admiration [vanity], the sense of the "I" [ego], then whom shall they refer to when they say "I Love You" to their romantic partner? To whom shall they credit success in achieving goals? To whom shall they refer when evaluating directions to take in life? If there is no I, who makes mistakes and learns from them? How can one be benevolent and rational to others, when one cannot for themselves? How can one give from an empty cup? For one to be consistently and honestly benevolent to others, one must first know how to be benevolent to oneself. Ergo, one must be selfish. Yes, what an amazing concept.
If you cannot help but feel mischievous or guilty or "sinful" when reading such a statement, then recognize this for what it is: a sign that you've been fooled and brainwashed by the precise, blind evils that pose as "higher good", when in fact, it is a very destroyer of mankind.


If the people who ardently propagate the notion of such "self-sacrifice", answered all the above questions honestly with no guile, they would typically respond with collectivist answers or responses with altruist undertones. This collectivist mentality is but a very common one amongst religions, which is to say that collectivism ultimately stems from mysticism. This is because in reality, there is no Earthly reason why one should have to commit such self-suicide for the sake of others, and every Earthly reason why one should learn the virtue of selfishness, of individualism.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (03/11/06 11:27 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5390472 - 03/11/06 11:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
They all see the sense of self (Ego, pride, vanity) as the worst enemy one has to face on the path of self-discovery, knowing God or enlightenment.

If the "sense of self", e.g. ego, is "The Worst Enemy", then whom is it that leads yourself to success in any endeavor? Someone or something that..isn't you? -=knocks on your skull=- Hello? Anybody home?

If the "sense of self" is one's greatest enemy, and their ultimate "spiritual" goal is to erase any sense of self-worth (pride), self-admiration [vanity], the sense of the "I" [ego], then whom shall they refer to when they say "I Love You" to their romantic partner? To whom shall they credit success in achieving goals? To whom shall they refer when evaluating directions to take in life? If there is no I, who makes mistakes and learns from them? How can one be benevolent and rational to others, when one cannot for themselves? How can one give from an empty cup? For one to be consistently and honestly benevolent to others, one must first know how to be benevolent to oneself. Ergo, one must be selfish. Yes, what an amazing concept.
If you cannot help but feel mischievous or guilty or "sinful" when reading such a statement, then recognize this for what it is: a sign that you've been fooled and brainwashed by the precise, blind evils that pose as "higher good", when in fact, it is a very destroyer of mankind.


If the people who ardently propagate the notion of such "self-sacrifice", answered all the above questions honestly with no guile, they would typically respond with collectivist answers or responses with altruist undertones. This collectivist mentality is but a very common one amongst religions, which is to say that collectivism ultimately stems from mysticism. This is because in reality, there is no Earthly reason why one should have to commit such self-suicide for the sake of others, and every Earthly reason why one should learn the virtue of selfishness, of individualism.






its not a sense of self thats the problem, it is a limited sense of self, a false sense of self that is not in accordance with reality.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Deviate]
    #5390614 - 03/12/06 12:57 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

align your Self with Your Truth and the nine planets which orbit your home.

sychronization is the k3y to being fr33 in this set plane of travel


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5390798 - 03/12/06 02:44 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
The worst enemy mankind faces is "the sense of self"?



Yes. The ego is a destructive force. Compassion is the result of overcoming the ego.


--------------------


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5390910 - 03/12/06 04:09 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The ego is a destructive force.

Correction: The destructive ego is a destructive force. Ignorance and negligence is the source of destructiveness. Likewise, the constructive ego is a constructive force. Knowledge, reason and creativity is the source of constructiveness. Did it ever occur to you that there are living, actual people that actually have healthy, rational and self-actualizing egos and are actually benevolent, productive people?


Compassion is the result of overcoming the ego.

Compassion does not exist without one to be compassionate. Compassion may be the result of transcending the uncompassionate ego, but there is still an ego - the transcendental ego.

Deviate made much more sense - to reiterate what he said in other words - it's really ignorance and evasions of reality that is the issue - not the sense of self per se.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5390912 - 03/12/06 04:12 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

No martyr dies without hope of a hero's funeral.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5390913 - 03/12/06 04:13 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
The ego is a destructive force.




The ego is a survival mechanism.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5390999 - 03/12/06 05:00 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
its not a sense of self thats the problem, it is a limited sense of self, a false sense of self that is not in accordance with reality.




Here, here! :thumbup:

The more we understand the nature of reality and our surroundings, the interactions we engage ourselves in, the more our sense of self develops. Our sense of self is not something to be overcome, it is not some great evil that traps us.

That said, the sense of self is still illusory, as it is not the self. It is certainly real, the mind's observations and "definitions" of who we are, but it is illusory in that it is a reflection of the self - not the self.

The development of our sense of self relates to that which we use to reflect the self. Is our mind using an unobstructed mirror to reflect the being of ourself in order to produce a sense, or perception, of who we are?

The problem is that the vast majority do not directly, openly perceive themselves and thus form an accurate sense of who they are. They operate with preconceived notions and definitions of who they are, and maintain these definition as though they were concrete, permanent (which is exactly the power that a survival mechanism gone hyper wants to attain).

Of course, the world, this reality, is constantly changing, as all aspects of the universe interact with each other as a gloriously emergent, mesh network. The more one realizes the nature of the universe and of their own experiences, the more one will identify with reality and its nature, and the less one will hold onto illusory defintions of themselves and of reality.

The more we directly perceive and experience in this very moment, the only moment in which we exist, the more developed our sense of self becomes. The more we understand, the more capable we are of conducting ourselves in a beneficial manner to ourselves, and thus our environment as well (as there is no true distinction between our environment/reality, and ourselves).

It is only by bringing awareness into our present experience of being the self that our mind's sense of self naturally develops. We experience ourselves before we form conceptions of who we are.

Thus, the worse "enemy" we are to address is ignorance. Knowing, understanding, realization will conquer this "enemy". I use quotations around the word as it amuses me that we would think through such oppositional terms. When I embark on learning a new song, I do not regard my previous state of not knowing that song as an enemy that must be vanquished. Our journey out of ignorance is a natural result of the fact that we are learning. Ignorance is not a force to be vanquished, and to focus on accomplishing such will be futile. Embrace realization and understanding.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5391099 - 03/12/06 06:37 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What is more dangerous: Ignorance, or half-knowledge. I would strongly say the second one.
Are we ever able to have full knowledge about anything, or will we for ever be damned in half-knowledge ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5391120 - 03/12/06 07:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
What is more dangerous: Ignorance, or half-knowledge. I would strongly say the second one.
Are we ever able to have full knowledge about anything, or will we for ever be damned in half-knowledge ?




Excuse my ignorance, but what the hell is half-knowledge? :confused:

Ignorance is the absence of knowledge, essentially. Knowledge is basically information. When I state that the fifth fret of the third string on a guitar that is properly tuned and intonated to Eb tuning is the note referred to as B, that is knowledge. If I was not to know what the name of the twenty-second president of the United States of America was, then I would be ignorant of that information.

"Half-knowledge" doesn't exist. You either know something, or you don't. If I know only the first half of the lyrics to Nevermore's song I Am The Dog, I only know the first half of those lyrics, and remain ignorant to the second half.

"Half-knowledge" seems to be a mixture of knowing and ignorance of multiple aspects, that one knows certain qualities of a complex state and not others. How this semantical nightmare is more dangerous than ignorance itself is baffling. :wtf:

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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5391143 - 03/12/06 07:54 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

For example: If I use the atomic bomb, my knowledge is about the physics of nuclear fission and political (social) power.
The knowledge that thousands of humans have to suffer from that, who have nothing to do with both the prior knowledges, and what can lead to the opposite effect than assumed (the innocent victims become more hatred towards the atomic bomb thrower). which compromises the idea of political power (as seen in first concept of knowledge), as far as I know, is called half-knowledge. As the medicinal aftereffects were not known, they were not seen to be serious.
As the intention of the usage of knowledge is a subjective fact (aka EGO), can we ever see, where humans will lead the knowledge in their context ? Atomic fission, of course, was intended to serve humans in a knowing positive way...
But it also can be independent of human intentions, only by not knowing about. Look at X-Rays and how they were used in a crazy way at the beginning, so that everyone got cancer, especially the researchers.

Other half-knowledge examples; Fertilization (as overuse damages the environment), antibiotics (danger of resistance), or our all so beloved spiritual preachers in TV-shows, as they take parts out of context and present it as absolute knowledge, what may only be a relative one...
Every knowledge seems partial, as long we can not see or assume other means of usage, or side-effects of this knowledge.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (03/12/06 08:03 AM)


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5391145 - 03/12/06 08:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Every knowledge seems partial, as long we can not see or assume other means of usage, or side-effects of this knowledge.




All knowledge is complete. The absence of knowledge of other aspects of reality is ignorance. Ignorance of the consequences of applying a certain knowledge does not mean that the knowledge that is being applied is incomplete.

None of which demonstrates why "half-knowledge" is more dangerous than ignorance itself. Holding some knowledge is more beneficial than holding no knowledge.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5391146 - 03/12/06 08:05 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Holding some knowledge (in contrast to full knowledge) will elicit the ego to fill the missing knowledge with its own interpretation of reality :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5391197 - 03/12/06 09:14 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

there is no full knowledge or full knowing.
life is very much a fractal and holographic process.
we are adjusting to conditions and creatng new ones
developing knowledge and losing it
much knowledge is valuable only in a temporary way -
applying to conditions that are fleeting.

a few years back a good man was so excited that he could put the whole louvre on a cd rom.
he was amazed at his aspiration to encapsulate all the art and the knowledge of a vast space in a small thing for printing and selling and sharing.

naturally you cannot encapsulate the whole of a bigger thing in a smaller thing, but you may enjoy and use the impressions from one in the other. you can distill from a scene a memorable motif, and this may be key to other scenes as well.

the ever expanding tendrils of google far surpass the idea of a cdrom for his yearning, and google, by virtue of multiple matching, is more mind like in delivering related concepts in bulk vs assuming "this is it"

this is integral to the whole fractal idea, a complex interacts with itself - mirroring it's flow on large and small scales (infinitesimal and cosmic), infinitely.

Also the hologram aspect keeps emerging from the mix, in which impressions of the 3-d world are saved and intermingle with other saved impressions - one sifts and tunes through what is happenning and through one's associations in an amazing multitasking googley way.

our mind makes connections, but cannot encapsulate. it can tune in, but it cannot overrule. full knowledge is not even an ideal, it is a parardox.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5391257 - 03/12/06 10:05 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

right redgreen, that is why I said it :wink:
I also stem from that philosophy: The more I know, the more I will know that I don't know (or something similar like that) :wink:
But I would wish for some kind of holographic memory-device, which is capable to present every correlation of every single fact of knowledge. Then, examinations of filters and probabilities and all that, enclosing the discovery of truth could get in better reach for humans...
Just a dream ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5391648 - 03/12/06 01:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
The ego is a destructive force.

Correction: The destructive ego is a destructive force. Ignorance and negligence is the source of destructiveness. Likewise, the constructive ego is a constructive force. Knowledge, reason and creativity is the source of constructiveness. Did it ever occur to you that there are living, actual people that actually have healthy, rational and self-actualizing egos and are actually benevolent, productive people?



Perhaps I should have clarified: An untempered ego is destructive. Or more accurately, an ego that does not understand its place is destructive. The essential truth which all religions teach is that you are a part of something greater than yourself. The idea is to be humbled by this fact, and understand that it's not all about you. Virtue is the result of compassion, and compassion cannot exist without going beyond one's own ego.


Quote:

Compassion is the result of overcoming the ego.

Compassion does not exist without one to be compassionate. Compassion may be the result of transcending the uncompassionate ego, but there is still an ego - the transcendental ego.

Deviate made much more sense - to reiterate what he said in other words - it's really ignorance and evasions of reality that is the issue - not the sense of self per se.



I would agree, except that the reality that the uncompassionate evade is the reality that they are a part of something more important than themselves.

The core teachings of all these world religions leads to a single conclusion: Get over yourself!


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5391659 - 03/12/06 01:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
The essential truth which all religions teach is that you are a part of something greater than yourself.




What?


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5391660 - 03/12/06 01:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

but you are that holographic knowledge and memory thing already.
and we together expand on that.
what dream is it actually?
james bond perhaps?
more stirred than shaken...


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5391686 - 03/12/06 01:50 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

but you are that holographic knowledge and memory thing already.
:lol: I know, and I know we are all that, but I hope for some more accurate one :thumbup:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5391687 - 03/12/06 01:50 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
The essential truth which all religions teach is that you are a part of something greater than yourself.




What?



Humanity, for instance


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5391696 - 03/12/06 01:54 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

what dream is it actually?
The dream of g*d ?
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5391761 - 03/12/06 02:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
The essential truth which all religions teach is that you are a part of something greater than yourself.




What?



Humanity, for instance




I can't feel humanity's pain, only the pain inflicted upon my own organism. In fact, it's only through the workings of my own neurons that I am even able to perceive humanity, or any of the other creatures that inhabit my environment. I am part of humanity in the sense that I belong to the same biological class as other human animals like myself, but this doesn't seem to suggest any kind of responsibility, debt, or higher purpose. So, how does my belonging to a certain area of the animal kingdom indicate something greater than myself, when in fact other humans are almost exactly like me due to their biological structure?


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5391800 - 03/12/06 02:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
I can't feel humanity's pain, only the pain inflicted upon my own organism.



Too bad for you. I can. It's called empathy.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #5391834 - 03/12/06 02:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Is ...

Quote:

Fear of losing self <-- THE ...





...

:crazy2: :thumbup:


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5391939 - 03/12/06 03:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
I can't feel humanity's pain, only the pain inflicted upon my own organism.



Too bad for you. I can. It's called empathy.




Right. I was talking about physical pain though.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5391950 - 03/12/06 03:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Why must the pain be physical to be just as real?


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392008 - 03/12/06 03:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Why must the pain be physical to be just as real?




I was using the example of "inflicted pain," in order to demonstrate that the individual organism does not essentially exist in union with the rest of humanity, in a physical sense. We simply coexist. If you watch me stab myself in the hand, you may be disgusted and afraid, and possibly sympathetic to the pain which you can tell I am experiencing, but you will of course remain unharmed as there is no essential sensory connection between us. This is not a question of morality; I'm simply asking how an emotional response such as empathy indicates anything beyond the organism itself.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392025 - 03/12/06 03:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I'm simply asking how an emotional response such as empathy indicates anything beyond the organism itself.



Because it is in our very nature to understand ourselves as part of a group, and rightly so. Our individual self only exists in relation to others.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392034 - 03/12/06 03:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The essential truth which all religions teach is that you are a part of something greater than yourself.

Because it is in our very nature to understand ourselves as part of a group, and rightly so. Our individual self only exists in relation to others.


How is "being part of something greater" religious instead of evolutionary?


Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/12/06 03:59 PM)


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392041 - 03/12/06 04:02 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
The essential truth which all religions teach is that you are a part of something greater than yourself.

Because it is in our very nature to understand ourselves as part of a group, and rightly so. Our individual self only exists in relation to others.


How is "being part of something greater" religious instead of evolutionary?



It is evolutionary. Religion simply expands upon this understanding, and turns it into a basis of morality.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392082 - 03/12/06 04:20 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

I'm simply asking how an emotional response such as empathy indicates anything beyond the organism itself.



Because it is in our very nature to understand ourselves as part of a group, and rightly so. Our individual self only exists in relation to others.




Others only exist in relation to our individual selves. We are only "part of a group" insofar as we share similar traits with other organisms. If it is only through empathy that we can experience this higher union, what about those that experience apathy? Are they not part of this group that you speak of?


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392089 - 03/12/06 04:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Others only exist in relation to our individual selves. We are only "part of a group" insofar as we share similar traits with other organisms.



Do you deny that human beings are social animals?

Quote:

If it is only through empathy that we can experience this higher union, what about those that experience apathy? Are they not part of this group that you speak of?



No, they are still part of the group, but they do not understand it.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392104 - 03/12/06 04:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Others only exist in relation to our individual selves. We are only "part of a group" insofar as we share similar traits with other organisms.



Do you deny that human beings are social animals?




Some of them are. Others can hardly function in a society.

Quote:

If it is only through empathy that we can experience this higher union, what about those that experience apathy? Are they not part of this group that you speak of?



No, they are still part of the group, but they do not understand it.




What group? Mammals?


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392109 - 03/12/06 04:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Some of them are. Others can hardly function in a society.



Yes. Such people have psychological disorders. In fact, there is a medical term for one who lacks empathy: psychopath.

Quote:

What group? Mammals?



Society


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392130 - 03/12/06 04:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Some of them are. Others can hardly function in a society.



Yes. Such people have psychological disorders. In fact, there is a medical term for one who lacks empathy: psychopath.




Going as far as to say that anyone who does not feel naturally predisposed to the confines of society is a psychopath is quite a stretch. Quite a stretch indeed.

Quote:

What group? Mammals?



Society




Society is a construct, it is no way inherent.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392143 - 03/12/06 04:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Going as far as to say that anyone who does not feel naturally predisposed to the confines of society is a psychopath is quite a stretch. Quite a stretch indeed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

Quote:

Society is a construct, it is no way inherent.



I would say the same for the individual self.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392154 - 03/12/06 04:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

by classyfrying people u just d/v/de us


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392173 - 03/12/06 04:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Going as far as to say that anyone who does not feel naturally predisposed to the confines of society is a psychopath is quite a stretch. Quite a stretch indeed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy




"...characterised by lack of empathy or conscience, poor impulse control and manipulative behaviors."

With those criteria, I think we could safely assume that a large portion of humanity is psychopathic. In fact, society itself is fueled by this type of behavior, so where do we draw the line between a disorder and a human condition?

Quote:

Society is a construct, it is no way inherent.



I would say the same for the individual self.




The individual is the organism's sensory awareness of itself, which is inherent to its consciousness, and a direct product of its natural biological processes. Society is a conceptual, temporary human construct which is easily dissipated and constantly changing.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392195 - 03/12/06 04:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Or more accurately, an ego that does not understand its place is destructive.

An ego should, on rational and evidential basis, choose their own place in their own lives. Any idea, concept, or religion that attempts to rob people of this individual freedom is downright evil.


The essential truth which all religions teach is that you are a part of something greater than yourself.

CoughcollectivismCough. I have nothing wrong with recognizing the existence of mankind. However, it is more important to recognize that our own lives are ends in themselves. I, am the manager of my own life - not anyone else or some anthropomorphic concept of society.
Of course mankind, by definition, is not all about "moi". Such attitudes alone, however, are prone to leading into collectivism and altruism. As such, one must understand that: your individual life is all about you. Ultimately, it is all about you.


I would agree, except that the reality that the uncompassionate evade is the reality that they are a part of something more important than themselves.

I disagree. The uncompassionate evade the fact that they are uncompassionate to themselves, i.e., the fact that their own lives are ends in themselves, i.e., the fact that they've been fooled into thinking it is evil to be selfish and "morally good" to be altruistic - and proceed to exhibit myriad contradictory actions, i.e., the fact that they are not in control of their own lives with productive purposes, i.e., the fact that they lack a rational, consistent philosophy that is consistent with their goals and desired accomplishments.


The core teachings of all these world religions leads to a single conclusion: Get over yourself!

Uh-huh. Just like damn near all those quotes from various religions in the parent post - observe how almost all of them negate and attack pride, which is the opposite of humility. Here is another case of individualism vs collectivism, whereby individualism supports pride and collectivism supports humility. As opposed to the crown of virtues, humility is the poison of virtues. Every act of virtue is cause for scorn, because you are attempting to be good. Instead of accepting yourself as a worm, you are trying to be human. This is a great sin in many ethical systems. If you are happy about who you are, you will want to live for yourself. This is clearly unacceptable in ethical systems, such as altruism, where you are to sacrifice yourself for others. Pride gets in the way of sacrifice. Only humility serves that end.




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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5392203 - 03/12/06 04:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
However, it is more important to recognize that our own lives are ends in themselves. I, am the manager of my own life - not anyone else or some anthropomorphic concept of society.
Of course mankind, by definition, is not all about "moi". Such attitudes alone, however, are prone to leading into collectivism and altruism. As such, one must understand that: your individual life is all about you. Ultimately, it is all about you.




Word.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392212 - 03/12/06 05:02 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

"...characterised by lack of empathy or conscience, poor impulse control and manipulative behaviors."

With those criteria, I think we could safely assume that a large portion of humanity is psychopathic. In fact, society itself is fueled by this type of behavior, so where do we draw the line between a disorder and a human condition?



Well, first of all, I would have to ask what you consider to be a "large portion" of humanity. I think that, in spite of what the cynics may say, most people do possess empathy, conscience, and a reasonable degree of impulse control. These are all things that make us human.

Quote:

The individual is the organism's sensory awareness of itself, which is inherent to its consciousness, and a direct product of its natural biological processes.



That is not the self as it is commonly conceived. People conceive of themselves as having unique traits - a personality. They identify experiences and actions with themselves. It is true in a more metaphysical sense that the true self is consciousness, but this is not what people normally understand themselves to be.

Quote:

Society is a conceptual, temporary human construct which is easily dissipated and constantly changing.



As is the self, as it is commonly understood. There is no part of you which exists independently or is unchanging.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392243 - 03/12/06 05:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

"...characterised by lack of empathy or conscience, poor impulse control and manipulative behaviors."

With those criteria, I think we could safely assume that a large portion of humanity is psychopathic. In fact, society itself is fueled by this type of behavior, so where do we draw the line between a disorder and a human condition?



Well, first of all, I would have to ask what you consider to be a "large portion" of humanity. I think that, in spite of what the cynics may say, most people do possess empathy, conscience, and a reasonable degree of impulse control. These are all things that make us human.




The mere fact that there are any humans that don't experience such emotions shows that they are not inherent or universal. It is our DNA that "makes us human." The traits which you describe are merely subjective behaviors.

Quote:

Society is a conceptual, temporary human construct which is easily dissipated and constantly changing.



As is the self, as it is commonly understood. There is no part of you which exists independently or is unchanging.




Obviously not, as I am merely the product of a natural process. The organism itself exists independently of others though; this is not a very controversial claim.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392253 - 03/12/06 05:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
The mere fact that there are any humans that don't experience such emotions shows that they are not inherent or universal.



Please list those things that all humans have which are unique to humans.

Quote:

Obviously not, as I am merely the product of a natural process. The organism itself exists independently of others though; this is not a very controversial claim.



It is if you study any of the social sciences. We are products of our environment, which includes the other organisms within it.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392272 - 03/12/06 05:22 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
The mere fact that there are any humans that don't experience such emotions shows that they are not inherent or universal.



Please list those things that all humans have which are unique to humans.




"Humans are a eukaryotic species. Each diploid cell has two sets of 23 chromosomes, each set received from one parent. There are 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes. At present estimate, humans have approximately 20,000?25,000 genes and share 98.4% of their DNA with their closest living evolutionary relatives, the two species of chimpanzees."

I suppose the 1.6% of DNA that we don't share with chimpanzees could be considered unique.

Quote:

Obviously not, as I am merely the product of a natural process. The organism itself exists independently of others though; this is not a very controversial claim.



It is if you study any of the social sciences. We are products of our environment, which includes the other organisms within it.




"Product of," does not imply any kind of physical or spiritual union. 2 times 3 is 6, but 6 is not 2 or 3, it is its own number.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392295 - 03/12/06 05:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Humans are a eukaryotic species. Each diploid cell has two sets of 23 chromosomes, each set received from one parent. There are 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes.



Those with Down syndrome have an extra chromosome. Are they not human?

Quote:

"Product of," does not imply any kind of physical or spiritual union. 2 times 3 is 6, but 6 is not 2 or 3, it is its own number.



That's not what I responding to. You said that the organism exists independently of other organisms. The fact that we are products of our environment refutes this.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392304 - 03/12/06 05:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I, am the manager of my own life - not anyone else

I am a vessel to transport genetic information.
I am managed by genetics and complex biological responses to my environment.

Society is a conceptual, temporary human construct which is easily dissipated and constantly changing.

And wolfpacks are conceptual, temporary wolf constructs?


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392330 - 03/12/06 05:42 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Society is a conceptual, temporary human construct which is easily dissipated and constantly changing.

And wolfpacks are conceptual, temporary wolf constructs?




Yep! The wolves may temporarily band together in a way that furthers each of their own individual chances for survival, but if the wolves happen to land in a situation in which they are forced to battle it out with another ferocious group of animals in the forest and all of them are killed except for one, the wolfpack has been torn down by the forces of nature and the survivor is back where he started from.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392342 - 03/12/06 05:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

How is that conceptual or a construct?

The wolfpack is a evolutionary behavioral trait. The survivor will either find another pack to join or die without perpetuating his genes.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392344 - 03/12/06 05:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Those with Down syndrome have an extra chromosome. Are they not human?

Nope.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392347 - 03/12/06 05:50 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I am a vessel to transport genetic information.

I am a human being with genetic information. As I am a volitional, conscious being, I may choose not to transmit my own individual genetic information to another - and most likely will not.

I am managed by genetics and complex biological responses to my environment.

Genetics and biological responses only go so far. I have a volitional consciousness - or rather, am a volitional consciousness. I must expend effort to use my faculty of reason - my genetics and biological responses do not do such work for me. They are not disqualifiers of volition - rather they are conditions of such a causal agent, much as is our range of knowledge, temperament and lifestyles.



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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392359 - 03/12/06 05:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
How is that conceptual or a construct?




It is a construct because the hypothetical wolfpack is composed of several individual wolves working together to further their own survival. The wolfpack is not a shared consciousness, it is the organization of several independent conscious organisms.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392362 - 03/12/06 05:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yep! The wolves may temporarily band together in a way that furthers each of their own individual chances for survival



Similarly, cells band together to form organs and tissue, which forms organisms.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5392375 - 03/12/06 05:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I have a volitional consciousness

In order for you to have a truly volitional consciousness, not an illusionary volition, a mind/brain duality must exist. Otherwise, you're just a complex parallel processing biological computer.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/12/06 06:02 PM)


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392381 - 03/12/06 06:03 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It is a construct because the hypothetical wolfpack is composed of several individual wolves working together to further their own survival. The wolfpack is not a shared consciousness, it is the organization of several independent conscious organisms.

Precisely correct. The "collective" is actually just individuals interacting in reality.



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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392388 - 03/12/06 06:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

In order for you to have a truly volitional consciousness, not an illusionary volition, a mind/brain duality must exist.

Is that so? Care to show how you've arrived at such a conclusion?



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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392408 - 03/12/06 06:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Yep! The wolves may temporarily band together in a way that furthers each of their own individual chances for survival



Similarly, cells band together to form organs and tissue, which forms organisms.




If I remember correctly, you and I had a debate in the past in which you argued that society couldn't be interpreted on a biological level. 

:confused:


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392415 - 03/12/06 06:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I don't recall that debate. :confused:

If I did say such a thing, I should point out that I do have a tendency to change my mind every now and then.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392424 - 03/12/06 06:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)



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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392464 - 03/12/06 06:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

You misunderstand me. I never denied that we have a genetic predisposition towards social behavior. I simply said that society couldn't simply be reduced to genetics.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5392469 - 03/12/06 06:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Like I said before, you're brain is a complex parallel processing biological computer. In order for freewill to exist, the mind has to be free from the causal effects of the brain.

The Law of Causality does not allow for something to be caused by nothing. All effects have causes. If your choices are self-caused, the choice would have to exist prior to itself to cause itself, which is impossible. Nature isn't this capricious.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392549 - 03/12/06 06:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

In order for freewill to exist, the mind has to be free from the causal effects of the brain.

Why has it not occurred to you that the mind/consciousness is simply the manifestation of the brain's activity - and that you are your brain?
To say that consciousness is a manifestation of brain activity does not imply that we don't control our mind's activity. Since the mind and the brain are one, to control one's mind is to control one's brain and vice-versa. Mental activity is simply brain activity experienced from an internal, rather than an external perspective.


The Law of Causality does not allow for something to be caused by nothing.

Correct.


If your choices are self-caused, the choice would have to exist prior to itself to cause itself, which is impossible.

The choices themselves are not self-caused - they indeed have causes. It is our volition that is a causal agent. Nor does volition need to "exist prior to itself to cause itself" - it has a cause: the identity of our consciousness.




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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5392638 - 03/12/06 07:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Why has it not occurred to you that the mind/consciousness is simply the manifestation of the brain's activity

I'm an eliminative materialist. That is exactly what I think, but I cannot fathom how freewill could exist. Every effect has a cause and the brain is not free from this law.

It is our volition that is a causal agent.

What is volition, then? A substance? How does volition causally effect the physical brain? Isn't volition also a manifestation of the brain's activity?

A computer can make choices, but it doesn't have freewill. If you wanted to find out why a chess program moved a certian piece to a certian tile, you could read the code and understand exactly what logic lead to this decision. You could take this even further: you could read the code, translate it into machine-code, then to binary-code, and then to the physical hardware.

This is what reductive neurophysiologists do to the human brain.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/12/06 07:20 PM)


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5394510 - 03/13/06 10:15 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

adjusting free will is like tuning a crystal radio set.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5394720 - 03/13/06 12:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

thread: Make your choices free again... Free will exists. Have neurologists found the source of our will ? No.
The one who can't see will as free, lives in his own mental prison and denies the fact of spirituality.

Mind is not only the brain, whoa. It is every part of our body and also realizations of external circumstances, too.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5394756 - 03/13/06 12:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

yes it is the cerebellum that permits the tuning in of memories (associations) or tuning them out (among a large group that may be arising simultaneously) - mostly we just think of the cerebellum as a multitimer - something to help by producing coordinating rhythms for muscle coordination and movement, athletic prowess etc.

The prefrontal cortex is very involved in directing associative thought and this amounts to modulating the cerebellum's synthesizer so that you can tune into specific matches among the multiple matches that are constantly arizing in response to impressions.

(here is where the "I want to do this", or "I want to think that" takes place, followed by a tuning in or ramping towards...)

The prefrontal cortex however functions associatively in this act of choosing, so some might say that free will remains arguable (it can be habit - just conditioning, or the illusion of free will can be called merely a learned reflex), however, some groups of associations do have much free-er oriented contexts than others, and so a free spirited being will cultivate these more elusive qualities, and may even cultivate an appreciation for something undefinable.

the results of this approach are not arguable. mechanistic perhaps in composition, but very spiritual in effect.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5394853 - 03/13/06 01:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you redgreenvines for actualizing my knowledge. But doesn't it still seem that we are free to tune in our cerebellum to whatever kind of 'attention' we want to percieve (out of memory and actual context, as well as from our outer and external reality) ?
As famous philosophers say: We are free to choose the different.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5394942 - 03/13/06 01:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

the inner and outer realities are combined together in holographic glimpses. there is no separation at all.

we adjust the tuningforks of our minds to invoke more from parts we are attracted to.

we are free to ask questions - to invoke questing, and in so doing establish more or less freedom. to navigate into more free contexts.

I guess because it is such a mechanicalprocess, much of the agonizing about anything including free will is just so much pinballing around in our own tilted gameworlds. and that hardly seems free at all - just reflexive and dark noisy action with preprogrammed flashes.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5394973 - 03/13/06 01:46 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Hehe, it is an art to bring innner and outer context into harmony :lol:
Keyword is 'attention',which it seems, very view humans have under their control :laugh:
What causes our attention ? And now, to come back to topic...is it will ? Is it its illusion of it, known as ego ? Is it pure external ? Is it internal ?
What does knowledge play in the role of attention ?

And....(drums rolling).... what does this make evil ?

Very fucking complex, it seems...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (03/13/06 02:21 PM)


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5395289 - 03/13/06 03:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Have neurologists found the source of our will ? No.

Its hard to find something which doesn't exist.  :tongue:


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5395313 - 03/13/06 04:03 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

what is attention?

the impressions arise from the senses (or in recalling some incident)
and those impressions resonate in the mind.

some combinations trigger associations.

some associations induce pleasurable feeling or alarmed feeling.

either of these can draw ones attention from something else (unless a meditator's concentration is already dedicated),

in this way we attune to the new "diversion", and attention shifts


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5395405 - 03/13/06 04:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Have neurologists found the source of our will ? No.

Its hard to find something which doesn't exist.  :tongue:



Oops. Will certainly exists. But it is the question if it is free, or determined..and in context to topic..somehow evil, if facetted in some special egoistic way, linked to some kind of partial knowledge ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
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'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5395428 - 03/13/06 04:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

attention in the span of pleasure and alarm (of danger) ?
Sounds reasonable...but can there be realm of pleasure and pain, which is not physically based, yet ? Perhaps fiction, perhaps fantasy, something what not is, but might be ?
Adding to concept, ego, knowledge ? :wink:

Ok, now I have some concepts to gnaw on :wink:
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (03/13/06 04:50 PM)


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #5397733 - 03/14/06 05:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redtailedhawk said:
Recently I noticed that all major religions - including practice described by Carlos Castaneda - share one comment element. They all see the sense of self (Ego, pride, vanity) as the worst enemy one has to face on the path of self-discovery, knowing God or enlightenment




I don't think these teachings were trying to get us to give up our individuality......just our over inflated sence of self.

I noticed a good example of this at work the other day.

A co-worker was showing me her torn fingernail. I told her "I bet that hurt. At my last job when you fuck up you either loose the whole nail or the finger!"

My ego wanted to tell her that her pain was not that bad. That the pain I had suffered in the past was much greater than hers.

I should have shown more sympathy to her, offered to get her a band-aid or tried to find some nail clippers rather than bring up my own injuries from the past, to diminish her pain today.

It is a simple, off the cuff remark, in the course of a day. A simple thing that did not help my fellow co-worker, just my own ego.

Reading thru this thread (and others) I see many egos that are out of control and have a great desire to put other ideas down in order to make them-self feel better.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5397736 - 03/14/06 05:10 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
attention in the span of pleasure and alarm (of danger) ?
Sounds reasonable...but can there be realm of pleasure and pain, which is not physically based, yet ? Perhaps fiction, perhaps fantasy, something what not is, but might be ?
Adding to concept, ego, knowledge ? :wink:

Ok, now I have some concepts to gnaw on :wink:
:heart:



pleasure and pain are about harmony and quantity:

a harmonious stimulus on any nerve group is pleasurable
too much stimulus becomes painful or disharmonious.

if no stimulus or an imaginary condition were interpreted as disharmonious. the pain would be just as real.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: niteowl]
    #5397737 - 03/14/06 05:12 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

or maybe it did help... cuz she realized hey man, this could be way worse, this dude said he could lose his whole finger, im glad i still got my finger, and i just messed up my nail.

seems its just how one chooses to look at it.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: fresh313]
    #5397743 - 03/14/06 05:24 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I still should have shown sympathy first and offered to help.

Then once she felt better, relay the story of my last job to let her know it could have been worse.

I fed my ego rather than trying to help her. :shake:


Hopefully, I can learn from this and be more giving in the future and not be so selfish.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: niteowl]
    #5398150 - 03/14/06 10:30 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

niteowl;

your associative mind related personally to the circumstance by reflex. - this is the natural thing. - good.

you can see in it the self centered nature of putting your imprint onto the situation, and you could be right, but her experience clearly struck a chord in you. - you were enough open to catch that wave. - good

so then you responded from your heart (which is filled with self - hmmm, maybe not that good, but how bad?).

naturally it seems kind of weird, because your heart seems selfcentered and egotistical, but what happened was about connecting, and if her heart was opened, she could probably find that you were paying attention to her as much as pressing your own imprint on the environment that had been upset by her need and injury.

anyway you don't have to beat yourself about this
the right thing is already happenning naturally, you can go for some refinement, and should, (all of us can and should) but it is best not to be conflicted about connecting, and to try and steer it to the most helpful results.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5398477 - 03/14/06 12:16 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'm an eliminative materialist. That is exactly what I think, but I cannot fathom how freewill could exist.

To avoid semantical confusion, I will not use the word "free will", I use the word volition - the faculty of will; of choice.


Volition is self-evident. It is axiomatic. I can focus my eye-sight to see very sharply and clearly, and I can release my focus to the point where everything becomes an indiscriminate blur. Likewise, I have the same ability with my mind. I can focus my mental machinery into the task at hand, consciously aware of as many factors as my mental capacity allows for, projecting plans long-range into the future as well as planning ahead short-range, and I can release my control and let my mind coast along without any focus, relax my concentration and lapse into a state of blur and drift.

As I've observed in many arguments concerning the topic at hand, the very beef of our arguments will often rest upon one specific thing: what our identity is. Historically and presently, there are typically two camps.
One camp, the mystics of muscle, believe that consciousness has no identity, i.e., it doesn't exist; it is a myth. They believe we are all bodies without a mind. Therefore they believe all our actions, and conclusions we reach are the blind results of physical factors such as atomic-molecular tangos in the cerebra.
The other camp, mystics of spirit, believe that consciousness is from an otherworldly source, some divine fraction of an entity or mystic ingredient of some sort. As such, they believe that our volition is mystical; an attribute of an otherworldly soul. Whereas one camp invents the old strawman of "consciousness versus science", the other camp simply takes over this false alternative, then promotes the other side of it. This leads to rejecting arbitrarily the possibility of a naturalistic view of consciousness.

You obviously hold the former position, which is the materialist position. The fact that you've attempted to use an analogy pertaining to computers supports the implication that you do not believe we have a consciousness. Ergo, it is unsurprising to see you holding such a deterministic stance, after all, volition cannot exist without consciousness, i.e. without being aware of something or of factors in the matter-at-hand. Consciousness and volition are inextricably entwined.

I hold the naturalist position, which stands on neither sides of the camp. Consciousness is an attribute of percieved entities here on earth. It is a faculty possessed under definite conditions by a certain group of living organisms. It is directly observable [by introspection]. It has a specific nature, including specific physical organs, and acts accordingly, i.e., law-fully. It has a life-sustaining function: to percieve the facts of nature and thereby enable the organisms that possess it to act successfully. In all this, there is nothing unnatural or super-natural.
There is no basis for the suggestion that consciousness is seperate from matter, let alone opposed to it.
Like the faculty of vision [which is one of its aspects], and like the body, the faculty of awareness is wholly this-worldly.

You may argue that consciousness or volition is unnatural on the grounds that it cannot be percieved by extrospection, has no shape, color, or smell, and cannot be handled, weighed, or put in a test tube [all of which equally applies to the faculty of vision].
Yet such an argument is contradictory. It claims that consciousness or volition is impossible, while you claim to be conscious of the fact that it is impossible, and volitionally state the fact that it is impossible. Such an argument is based on the assumption that to really have a choice, one must not be restricted by the laws of identity. As such, it is a rebellion against reality.


Every effect has a cause and the brain is not free from this law.

Of course, the brain is not exempt from the Law of Causality. However, this is where we differ: You hold that the Law of Causality is a disqualifier of volition, whereas I hold that the Law of Causality is a pre-condition of volition, as is the Law of Identity. After all, the LoC is a corollary of Identity.





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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (03/14/06 12:29 PM)


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5400486 - 03/14/06 08:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What causes volition? If consciousness causes volition, what causes consciousness? If consciousness is a product of the physical brain, what causes the physical brain to change from its present state?


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5401911 - 03/15/06 03:15 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

If consciousness is a product of the physical brain, what causes the physical brain to change from its present state?

Volition. But of course, you mean biologically speaking. Now this is the real debate - not whether it exists, but how to explain it.

I don't know, except that this is what the field of cognitive neuroscience is working on, amongst other things. But not knowing something is not the same as denying something. Let us pretend we're in ancient B.C., in Athens, Greece. I Skorpivius, ask you, Mushmanius, "What mechanism creates those white puffs floating in the air?" Neither of us have the answer, yet, this does not mean that the clouds do not exist.



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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5402020 - 03/15/06 04:09 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
What causes volition? If consciousness causes volition, what causes consciousness? If consciousness is a product of the physical brain, what causes the physical brain to change from its present state?




Are you asking why our brains changes, like why do the neurons create new pathways and connections ?


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5402093 - 03/15/06 05:23 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

skorpius had a good description of cosnciousness, but redgreenvinius dares to explain the how of volition in more organic terms:

the being apprehends a position that is no longer advantageous and moves away (under volition or reflexively).

the being apprehends a position that is more advantageous and moves towards (under volition or reflexively).

we call it volition as many factors and associations coalesce into the apprehension followed by an idea that resolves the inherent issues. it is a complex reflex, and it passes through the cerebral cortex quickly and invisibly. it is complex enough that we can think of it as free will, and mechanistic enough that desire can enchain it.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5402116 - 03/15/06 06:09 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the being apprehends a position that is no longer advantageous and moves away (under volition or reflexively).

the being apprehends a position that is more advantageous and moves towards (under volition or reflexively).





this is what i was going to explain about the Neural Network, it adapts in the same way, making or destroying pathways and connections which are advantagous or disadvantagous to the organism. this is based upon the organisms awareness of its own volition or ability to adapt to better utilize its environment.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: fresh313]
    #5402282 - 03/15/06 09:03 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

right
so it is mechanistical
as are most modalities of this compulsively regenerative thing called life, yet,
(I am reaching now)
seeing this to be true, one can steer the desire component by slecting and cultivating conditions that this conditioned reaction matrix will interact with. (before someone else does it - like tv commercials)
In that way matter mixes with the more rarefied thing spirit - thin as breath.
it sees the interconnectedness and urges the conditioned matrix regeneratively to an improved meta-state.


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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5403601 - 03/15/06 03:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

No, no. I don't expect you (or anyone else on this forum) to understand the mechanisms behind such complex neurological functions. I certianly don't know either. Rather, I was trying to point out the causality. Choices are caused by volition that is caused by consciousness that is caused by complex neural nets in the brain and on and on all the way down to chemistry.

I also think volition exists, yet I still see it as a mechanistic process that is ultimately controlled by the laws of nature. Our behavior is determined in this causal sense, but it is not determinable. Our actions still effect the future.

Currently, I lean wholly towards determinism, but it seems like such a complex microscopic process that its a moot point. (And, I'm somewhat ashamed for even bring it up. :frown:) Determinism seems like a "so what?" philosophy, similar to Solipsism. Everything is mechanistically determined.. so what? Determinism doesn't lead anywhere. It is determined on such a low level that it isn't noticable in any manner.


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