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God? or not?
    #11251861 -

you ever wonder like maybe religion was just here so people would live moral lives? or is any of it real? Its one of those things you cant see it nor has anyone, i mean their are many religions, what if Christianity is not the right one, what if the right religion is not known, what if you dont need a religion?


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For a sorcerer, reality, or the world we all know, is only a description that has been pounded into you from the moment you were born.
The reality of our day-to-day life, then, consists of an endless flow of perceptual interpretations which we have learned to make in common.  - Don Juan

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Re: God? or not? [Re: shroomman8118]
    #11251971 -

You don't require religion to be moral it is inbuilt in us already.

We developed things like compassion and co-operation because they have been fundamental to our survival. These instincts were around before the first organised religions.

I dare say without religion and as we continue the evolutionary path we will become even more moral over time.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: Jaegar]
    #11252123 -

Yes, like any other man made institution, religious institutions have an obvious political component. Does this take away from an inherent quality which can be found in some of the texts? I think gems can be found if you sift through the rough.

Can one live a moral life without the guidance of a religion? Of course. But this doesn't take away the fact that religion can do great things for some people.

Personally, I rejected the Catholic Church early on in life and it turned me off to Spirituality for many years. Then I started getting into psychedelics and the contemplative and meditative Eastern traditions, such as Buddhism, and my "faith" was renewed.

To answer your question, a degree of truth can be found in all religions, but you don't need any of them :smile:. The truth is within yourself. I know it sounds corny, but if you look deep enough into scripture I think this is what they all are trying to tell us. God isn't some anthropomorphous bearded man in the sky. That is only how the ignorant ego conceptualizes it.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #11252466 -

thats how i was thinking you know. we do develop these moral values. i guess what im trying to ask is.... there is no proof of heaven or hell. do you think heaven and hell are states of mind? like you do bad stuff and expect hell consciously?


--------------------
For a sorcerer, reality, or the world we all know, is only a description that has been pounded into you from the moment you were born.
The reality of our day-to-day life, then, consists of an endless flow of perceptual interpretations which we have learned to make in common.  - Don Juan

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Re: God? or not? [Re: shroomman8118]
    #11252558 -
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States of mind yes. Our beliefs determine a lot of our experience of reality. In the thought responsive astral plane, newly departed souls can very easily create their own hell out of ignorance.

You should look into the subjective experience of Astral Projection, I've formed a lot of my beliefs around this "phenomena." Essentially, it is the ability to induce a out of body experience (OBE). People who have mastered this technique report a number of planes of existence, or fulcrums, less dense than our physical plane, leading up ultimately to a "source" of everything, blinding white light - pure energy.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #11252695 -

you say you form alot of your beliefs off of this. have you ever had an OBE?


--------------------
For a sorcerer, reality, or the world we all know, is only a description that has been pounded into you from the moment you were born.
The reality of our day-to-day life, then, consists of an endless flow of perceptual interpretations which we have learned to make in common.  - Don Juan

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Re: God? or not? [Re: shroomman8118]
    #11252831 -

shroomman8118 said:
you say you form alot of your beliefs off of this. have you ever had an OBE?


I've had limited success. I've been to the vibrational stage, which is the launch pad for the OBE, several times, but have only been able to achieve a OBE once. My thoughts and beliefs clouded the experience, much like they do in my lucid dreams. I couldn't seem to go beyond the next less dense stage to physical reality, which is a imperfect replica of your immediate physical surroundings. I was at the vibrational stage within my first week of hearing about astral projection, so intent and enthusiasm plays a huge part in success.

Once was enough to affirm that this is indeed a real thing. I then formed a lot of my opinions from literature on the subject, especially that of William Buhlman and Robert Monroe.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #11252976 -

so experiencing an OBE does what exactly to views of spirituality? i have never read about it. my uncle told me he did have an OBE many times. but never explained exactly how it changed anything. im just curious as to if that opens up to different views or what.


--------------------
For a sorcerer, reality, or the world we all know, is only a description that has been pounded into you from the moment you were born.
The reality of our day-to-day life, then, consists of an endless flow of perceptual interpretations which we have learned to make in common.  - Don Juan

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Re: God? or not? [Re: shroomman8118]
    #11253000 -

shroomman8118 said:
so experiencing an OBE does what exactly to views of spirituality? i have never read about it. my uncle told me he did have an OBE many times. but never explained exactly how it changed anything. im just curious as to if that opens up to different views or what.


Well for one, it opens up the idea that humans have both a physical and energy body, and that our consciousness is not exclusive to our physical body.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #11256182 -

I can tell you with certainty that astral projections, OBES, or whatever other name people wish to invent are just different names for lucid dreaming.

The brain is very adapt at replicating illusions. Sorry to say their is no mystical, spiritual, or religious meanings behind lucid dreaming. Een cats an dogs lucid dream, scientist and sure why mammals dream yet but their are some theories.

Save yourself from the mumbo jumbo astral projection projection and OBE theories, they are simply not true. But good theories to sell a coupe of books to the gullible.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: Jaegar]
    #11256220 -

Jaegar said:
I can tell you with certainty that astral projections, OBES, or whatever other name people wish to invent are just different names for lucid dreaming.




And what do you base this absolute certainty on? :tongue:

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Re: God? or not? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #11256404 -

I can base the certainty on having experienced many lucid dreams myself and learning about the brain.

There is a experiment for example where you can attach electrodes to the brain and stimulate a small area with some low voltage. It induces a vivid past memmory as if you were their again reliving it with all the visual and other senses present.

There is much literature out their on the brain and hallucinations I recommend you look into that before grasping on the the fantastical ideas of astral projection and out of body experiences.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: Jaegar]
    #11256630 -

Theres a definite difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming. I have become pretty good at mastering lucid dreaming. Theres a big "hump" one must get over when you first start. Usually when you realize your in a dream state you automatically start waking up, but with practice you become accustomed to it and can stay inside the dream state. After that anythings game, you can fly, fight, have some real feeling sex, destroy or create whatever you want. Astral projection involves having your mind leave your body while still conscious. I too have had only limited success with it. Theres also been a good amount of research on remote viewing too, which simple hallucinations cannot account for actually seeing things exactly as they are in a totally different location. Jaeger, im not saying your completely wrong, I know just how powerful the brain is, hell everything we touch feel and see is just a hallucination of sorts. A giant hologram formed from electrical pulses which are then computed by our brain and our five senses. I just think everyone should have a open mind about these things. You dont think some of the very same people who control religion have a control of what we call science. They want us to be seperated. The fact is both sides are right to an extant. We do have a soul, and there are other dimensions we can explore with this consciencness, all the latest discoveries in quantum and metaphsysics is starting to all come together to realize this.

God? yes.... Heaven and Hell?....probably not.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: Jaegar]
    #11256639 -

Jaegar said:
I can base the certainty on having experienced many lucid dreams myself and learning about the brain.


I've experienced lucid dreams as well, and I have also projected. Lucid dreams can actually be a launch pad for an OBE. Next time your are lucid, try and stop your dream, or feel yourself floating out of your physical body. The vibrational stage is very distinct - it feels like your being energized and the sound is quite loud, like your mind is in a jet engine. It can be startling for the novice.

Jaegar said:
There is a experiment for example where you can attach electrodes to the brain and stimulate a small area with some low voltage. It induces a vivid past memmory as if you were their again reliving it with all the visual and other senses present.


I see you have read a book (I think :confused:) and retained something from it. But what does this have to do with what we are talking about? :confused:

Jaegar said:
There is much literature out their on the brain and hallucinations I recommend you look into that before grasping on the the fantastical ideas of astral projection and out of body experiences.


Ok, now your just patronizing me. If your going to crunch up psychedelic experiences and astral projection into mere "hallucinations" you are in the wrong forum. :smile: The fact of the matter is, Scientists, that is people who are looking at these experiences from an external objective point of view use the word "hallucination" because it is something they don't yet understand. As the philosopher Ken Wilber puts it, you can't use objective terminology when talking about a subjective experience. If someone is meditating, you can measure the change in brain waves, but your not going to have any idea what the subjective experience is about. You do see what I'm saying here?

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Re: God? or not? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #11257305 -

God or no God? That tis the question. Here's my outlook on the subject. The chances of God existing are 50/50; yes or no. What made me become a true believer wasn't the church or any of it's associations. For me, it was the feeling I get when I'm rockin' on some all-natural, psychedelic mushrooms. Think about it, here's this little mushroom growing out of cow shit that can change human lives incredibly after just one trip. That one trip may either leave a person feeling glorious from a good trip or terrible from a bad trip. No lie, I must have tripped mushrooms nearly a hundred times and the only side effect I've seen in myself is the amount of belief and faith I have in God now. In my opinion, what causes people to have a bad experience on mushrooms is some kind of fear he or she has and when ones mindset drifts towards those fears, the mushroom effect enhances those feeling to create that dreaded bad trip. Same for a good feeling on mushrooms; psilocybin plus happy thoughts equals pure bliss. So my theory is that by getting over personal fears, ones mind won't be able to produce a bad trip. The only way I think someone can honestly say they are fearless is by truly believing in God because there's nothing to fear when you believe heaven awaits you. All my logic to believe came from my experiences with them magic mushrooms and I can honestly say nothing and no one will ever change my answer to the question. Thanks for reading.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: MotherNaturesMan]
    #11257460 -

The only people I've seen go on a 'bad trip' are those that believe in evil.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: Middleman]
    #11257637 -

a child being born into no religion is the beginning of conscious evolution! no?


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Re: God? or not? [Re: themostpurple]
    #11257890 -

Consider no one has yet proven any genuine evidence of out of body experiences I can say with confidence is all in your head. If you can travel out of your body surely experiments should be able to prove its existence.

You will find people will believe what they want to believe in or what they fear to believe in. They will argue black and blue even without any evidence to support their beliefs.

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Re: God? or not? [Re: Jaegar]
    #11258210 -

Jaegar said:
Consider no one has yet proven any genuine evidence of out of body experiences I can say with confidence is all in your head. If you can travel out of your body surely experiments should be able to prove its existence.

You will find people will believe what they want to believe in or what they fear to believe in. They will argue black and blue even without any evidence to support their beliefs.


It is a subjective experience like a dream. Mainstream science is only interested in what is objectively observable. I don't know how I can help you understand this concept any more... It's out of the paradigm

There are quite a few peer reviewed Journals on the subject. May I direct you to the Research tab @ http://www.monroeinstitute.org/

There's an Astral Projection experiment you can do to prove this for yourself. Place a playing card face up on a high dresser or shelf in your room, without looking at it. If you manage to project, float up to the card and see what number and suit it is, and then think of your body, wake up, and look at the card :smile:

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Re: God? or not? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #11259032 -

Our simple science in never going to be able to prove the existance of god. God, the one who created everything, all of the universe and possibly other universes, all the possibly infinite dimensions that exist within these universes, and everything else beyond that we have no idea even exists yet. We barely discovered the atom a few lifetimes ago, if we could already prove god exists, well then he/she/it isnt really god in my opinion. Its like an fish deep in the sea, its never going to understand theres an entire world outside of the ocean, and an even bigger world beyond that. We humans have a big ego and think were amazingly smarter and more civilized than everything. Look around, Were not!

My old logical theory for god was this. If there was a big bang that created this universe, there must have been something before that, and even then something before that, and so on. Sometime, somewhere, there had to be a beginning. Whatever that was, must have been god or something close to it. I prefer to call it the supreme architect.

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General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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