Kickle said:

MT, do we really chose what we learn from society, particularly in the early stages of life?
And if not, do these influence our later thoughts and interpretations of said thoughts?

Thoughts of 'I'm not good enough' are compared against a standard. Where does that standard come from? Do we freely choose what we determine as 'good' and 'bad' in terms of success, or does society provide a structure? This is not to say that an individual can not develop a structure of their own, but in the early stages, or until it becomes evident that the societal structure isn't adaptive for an individual (because it must be adaptive for society), is it really a choice? Wording it slightly different for clarification: Do we choose what values are presented to us in our learning stages?

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Of course we are not responsible for the education we receive as little kids, but in a big number cases, if we're a little skillful, we can even influence our educators to try other education techniques with us.
However, the situation dramatically changes when we grow up, and we become more and more free to decide what's best for us and what to pick from a variety of the possible alternatives at a certain given time. And yes, I do think that our society and education influences (emphasis on influence as opposed to causation) our choices as grown-ups, but it doesn't pre-determine it.
We are free at any time to think through our irrational chain of thoughts, learn new skills and models of behavior, and rid ourselves of stupid, irrational and childish demands from life.
I was just thinking about this matter earlier, and how, for example, a kid who's being spoiled and over-protected by his parents when he falls (as opposed to simply be helped to stand up again), would probably make a habit out of whining and feeling bad for himself whenever he feels like life has been unjust, looking to draw all kinds of feelings of pity and sympathy from his friends or colleagues. When this habit is reinforced and repeated, it will be carried by the individual though his adult stages of life. Regardless of all that, this doesn't mean that the certain person doesn't have the resources of possibilities to change and give up on this foolish behavior, it only means that for some reason or another it is more convenient for him to do so, and that in the same way he now decides to keep whining and feel sorry for himself, he can later decide to think though his irrational requests of the world. Once these expectations are sincerely stopped, he will no longer feel depressed.
I would like to make some experimentation on really spoiled kids, and put them in situations in which they know for a fact they don't have anyone to wipe their asses anymore. I am almost sure the the majority of them wouldn't even consider wasting any time on crying and going though all drama queen stuff, now that they know that they don't have anyone to impress. All of that irrational and whiny self-preservation instinct will turn into a healthy and efficient self-preservation instinct and they will start to properly adapt to whatever the environment would have to offer them.
As an adult, all these tendencies become habits because they had more time to imprint in one's mind, but it doesn't mean that they are set in stone - it just means that they need more time and perseverance to be successfully eliminated.

laserpig said:

Like I said, we are not gonna see eye-to-eye here.

If you really do believe that people can choose their emotional state ... good for you. I don't have any interest at this moment in trying to talk you out of it.

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laserpig said:

I strongly disagree with you here, and the article I cited backs this up: a primary symptom of depression is runaway analysis and re-analysis of one's problems -- ie, reasoning.

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MushroomTrip said:

I disagree.
The roots of depression are one's inability to accept their current condition, the ways they interact with other living being, and the nature of their surroundings.

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laserpig said:

I don't think I'm very well qualified to provide such a list, and I'm still not really sure what you're trying to get at with this.

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laserpig said:

Besides, depression is primarily an emotional state, not a particular arrangement of thoughts.

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Yes, depression is characterized and even experienced as being primarily an emotional state, but I strongly suspect that a closer inspection into the nature of the patterns of thoughts that are occurring within the same amount of time would be very revealing.

Regardless of whether or not you consider yourself to be "very well qualified", a lot of people have been depressed before to some extent, and like you said, you believe we all know what is meant by the term depression, so I'm sure you have an idea regarding the types of thoughts that are occurring when someone is depressed.

What utility would it serve to humor me on this one? Well, the idea was to explore that matter after the list was produced for discussion.
In general terms while we wait, the utility is to delve deeper into the discussion regarding the nature of depression.

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Of course we are not responsible for the education we receive as little kids, but in a big number cases, if we're a little skillful, we can even influence our educators to try other education techniques with us.

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deranger said:

MushroomTrip said:

I disagree.
The roots of depression are one's inability to accept their current condition, the ways they interact with other living being, and the nature of their surroundings.

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that's one narrow viewpoint and leaves out many possibilities.  some cases of depression could be due to malnourishment growing up, leading to an underdeveloped brain/chemical imbalance (e.g. a diet completely lacking in tryptophan).  example scenario - does a child with 300 pound parents who eat Mcdonald's type foods every day really have the choice to eat healthy?  not really.

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Yes, the lifestyle can play an important role in how one's mindset and brain chemistry will be, and malnourishment while growing up fits the scenario I have already mentioned in which kids aren't so responsible for how their parents choose to educate them and care for their physical health. Even so, this doesn't imply that as soon as they become responsible for themselves they don't have the opportunity to fix what can be fixed and change their lifestyle in a drastic manner. Like I said, there are always things one can do to work with their depression and alleviate as much as possible. In some cases the recovery will happen to a greater degree and in others to a smaller degree. My point was that there will always be something that one could do to change their mindset to a better one, and a change in the way one thinks will lead to a change in lifestyle as well, where it will be necessary.
There might even be cases of depression where a person might need antidepressants, and I think that as long as the treatment doesn't turn into a permanent thing and as long as some kind of psychotherapy is being followed, maybe with some physical exercising too, massage therapy, etc., the mix between all of these can be a successful recipe that can pull one out of deep depression.

Of course, severe cases of malnourishment aren't happening so frequently, like in Africa, so I think that this alone will make the handling of one's depression even easier. 

Newfound_wonder said:

If unhealthy lifestyles lead to depression then why are there so many fat people around?

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MushroomTrip said:

laserpig said:

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MushroomTrip said: there isn't too much reasoning that occurs in depression now, is it?

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I strongly disagree with you here, and the article I cited backs this up: a primary symptom of depression is runaway analysis and re-analysis of one's problems -- ie, reasoning.

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And there's poor reasoning and skillful reasoning. Obviously every being with a brain has the capacity of analyzing, and it's even more obvious that humans do this all the time.
What you just said is like saying that stupidity doesn't exist because even stupid people think. Of course they do - this is how you measure the quality of their reasoning.
Perhaps a better phrasing of what I said would be: "there isn't too much good reasoning that occurs in depression". Is that better for you?

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MushroomTrip said:

Yes, the lifestyle can play an important role in how one's mindset and brain chemistry will be, and malnourishment while growing up fits the scenario I have already mentioned in which kids aren't so responsible for how their parents choose to educate them and care for their physical health. Even so, this doesn't imply that as soon as they become responsible for themselves they don't have the opportunity to fix what can be fixed and change their lifestyle in a drastic manner. Like I said, there are always things one can do to work with their depression and alleviate as much as possible. In some cases the recovery will happen to a greater degree and in others to a smaller degree. My point was that there will always be something that one could do to change their mindset to a better one, and a change in the way one thinks will lead to a change in lifestyle as well, where it will be necessary.
There might even be cases of depression where a person might need antidepressants, and I think that as long as the treatment doesn't turn into a permanent thing and as long as some kind of psychotherapy is being followed, maybe with some physical exercising too, massage therapy, etc., the mix between all of these can be a successful recipe that can pull one out of deep depression.

Of course, severe cases of malnourishment aren't happening so frequently, like in Africa, so I think that this alone will make the handling of one's depression even easier. 

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MushroomTrip said:

They might be "brilliant" in whatever makes them brilliant, but when it comes to handling their emotions it seems more than obvious that they're not - otherwise they wouldn't choose to feel depressed just because of some irrational self importance that makes them think that they deserve better than what they have.

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MushroomTrip said:

They might be "brilliant" in whatever makes them brilliant, but when it comes to handling their emotions it seems more than obvious that they're not - otherwise they wouldn't choose to feel depressed just because of some irrational self importance that makes them think that they deserve better than what they have.

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para_bellum said:

I dont understand what you mean by "good reasoning".

I am depressed because I'm a misanthrope and I feel that I have no way of truly knowing what my purpose is in this life if there even is any.

How is my reasoning poor?

If it lies in my outlook then do you think loving optimists are more reasonable?

No disrespect is meant by my question I am just curious about what you think.

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Mufungo said:
according to the CBT model of depression.

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I really dislike certain aspects of that model

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para_bellum said:
The desired outcome in my life is not to lie to myself.

I feel I am honest with myself about human nature and my own nature.

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