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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: Redstorm]
    #11013620 -

A little off topic but I for one hate the way our society handles depression, from the commercials that have a sympathetic tone to those depressed and the happy pills our doctors give us, depressed people don't need sympathy and they don't need pharmaceuticals, they need to deeply consider what's wrong in their life and what they are not doing or doing wrong to make themselves depressed.  There's nothing wrong with being depressed, but depression is ment to tell you something not to be ignored with medication.


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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11013779 -

MushroomTrip said:
Why do you see it as a social thing, when depression occurs on a personal level?
I think that the OP is onto something though, only that I don't agree that depression necessarily leads to suicide. I think that there's more depressed people that choose to live (because they're too afraid to take their lives, or feel guilty, or feel that they owe their lives and presence to their family and friends - this way of thinking in itself can generate lots of depressive thoughts and attitudes) than depressed people who decide to end their lives. Depression often leads to a passive role which wouldn't leave much room to taking action towards ending one's life. Of course, I am only talking in general terms.

I do agree that depression is a sort of natural selection, but not one that has to result in immediate extinction; in fact most of "natural selection" has happened over time, and not right away, so I don't see any reason why it should be any different in the case of depression.
As a part of people will probably evolve to learn how to handle themselves and get a hold of their self-destructive emotions, others will evolve to mental chaos and self-destruction, choosing to be depressed. I think that what plays a major role in choosing depression is the thought that this will somehow protect one from being hurt, lied, stolen from and taken advantage of. One might choose to feel depressed because one might think that this is what will draw the attention and affection of other people.



the roots of depression are social in nature.
ask anyone that experiences depression what triggered it....and you'll find it probably was a social issue perceived to go wrong.

also....one could say that art is the catalyst for societal change...and many artists under go deep suffering or depression...and it seems there is a correlation between that and creativity later in life.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: Smitington]
    #11013790 -

Smitington said:
A little off topic but I for one hate the way our society handles depression, from the commercials that have a sympathetic tone to those depressed and the happy pills our doctors give us, depressed people don't need sympathy and they don't need pharmaceuticals, they need to deeply consider what's wrong in their life and what they are not doing or doing wrong to make themselves depressed.  There's nothing wrong with being depressed, but depression is ment to tell you something not to be ignored with medication.


meditation isn't escape, avoidance, or ignoring the problem.....it allows you to see things for what they are.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: curious mouse]
    #11013829 -

curious mouse said:
Smitington said:
A little off topic but I for one hate the way our society handles depression, from the commercials that have a sympathetic tone to those depressed and the happy pills our doctors give us, depressed people don't need sympathy and they don't need pharmaceuticals, they need to deeply consider what's wrong in their life and what they are not doing or doing wrong to make themselves depressed.  There's nothing wrong with being depressed, but depression is ment to tell you something not to be ignored with medication.


meditation isn't escape, avoidance, or ignoring the problem.....it allows you to see things for what they are.


U said meditation and I said medication


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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11013851 -

The typical lifestyles of many of the world's societies are prone to depression. It can be difficult, even for the best of us to rise up above depression. I find social interaction to be the most difficult aspect of a good healthy lifestyle because nowadays most people are too busy working their asses off or watching TV, so even if you want to be more social there is no one around for you to share this with.

I am no longer depressed but I used to be and I don't think it had anything to do with how strong I was. Especially when you consider that I have found a way to rise above it.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: curious mouse]
    #11013876 -

curious mouse said:
the roots of depression are social in nature.
ask anyone that experiences depression what triggered it....and you'll find it probably was a social issue perceived to go wrong.

also....one could say that art is the catalyst for societal change...and many artists under go deep suffering or depression...and it seems there is a correlation between that and creativity later in life.


I disagree.
The roots of depression are one's inability to accept their current condition, the ways they interact with other living being, and the nature of their surroundings. Society with any of its aspects doesn't directly make you depressed, but the way you choose to think about that particular aspect.

Also, the belief that depression enhances creativity is nothing but a myth, very much like the commonly met belief that autistic are brilliant. Correlation is not causation.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11013951 -

What evidence do you have that says depression does not play a role in creativity?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: Kickle]
    #11014026 -

I didn't say it can't play any role, I was only arguing against him saying that many artists go through deep suffering and depression, and that even is there might be correlation between those two it still doesn't mean that there's causation.
There's lots of people that are manifesting deep feelings of depression and suffering, but their creativity doesn't sparkle in any special way and there's lots of artists that haven't experienced any major trauma or depression and they're still very creative.
It is impossible to prove that depression can't play a role in creativity and it was never what I intended, maybe you just misinterpreted my post. Again, I said that the belief about depression enhancing creativity is nothing more than a myth because I've encountered this line of thinking quite frequently, and even met people that were trying to induce depression and suffering upon themselves so they could become more creative. :lol:

IMO, being creative is the result of a nice mixture between what we commonly call intuition and reasoning, and there isn't too much reasoning that occurs in depression now, is it? :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11014041 -

Yeah, it was the myth part that threw me.
I didn't dive deep enough into the meaning, but instead only to my initial emotional reaction of the word. An interesting disbalance of feeler/thinker going for me right now.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: Smitington]
    #11014081 -

Smitington said:
curious mouse said:
Smitington said:
A little off topic but I for one hate the way our society handles depression, from the commercials that have a sympathetic tone to those depressed and the happy pills our doctors give us, depressed people don't need sympathy and they don't need pharmaceuticals, they need to deeply consider what's wrong in their life and what they are not doing or doing wrong to make themselves depressed.  There's nothing wrong with being depressed, but depression is ment to tell you something not to be ignored with medication.


meditation isn't escape, avoidance, or ignoring the problem.....it allows you to see things for what they are.


U said meditation and I said medication



lol......my bad

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11014104 -

MushroomTrip said:
I disagree.
The roots of depression are one's inability to accept their current condition, the ways they interact with other living being, and the nature of their surroundings. Society with any of its aspects doesn't directly make you depressed, but the way you choose to think about that particular aspect.

Also, the belief that depression enhances creativity is nothing but a myth, very much like the commonly met belief that autistic are brilliant. Correlation is not causation.


i don't see how you could deny a profound mental experience to affect ones outlooks and creative motivations later in life.

society directly affects the ways in which we "see" the world.....our inherited social programming is the product of learned behaviours/communications and even thoughts processes that replicate generation after generation with slight variations.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11014169 -

Quote:
MushroomTrip said: there isn't too much reasoning that occurs in depression now, is it? :lol:


I strongly disagree with you here, and the article I cited backs this up: a primary symptom of depression is runaway analysis and re-analysis of one's problems -- ie, reasoning.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11014270 -

laserpig said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: there isn't too much reasoning that occurs in depression now, is it? :lol:


I strongly disagree with you here, and the article I cited backs this up: a primary symptom of depression is runaway analysis and re-analysis of one's problems -- ie, reasoning.


And there's poor reasoning and skillful reasoning. Obviously every being with a brain has the capacity of analyzing, and it's even more obvious that humans do this all the time.
What you just said is like saying that stupidity doesn't exist because even stupid people think. Of course they do - this is how you measure the quality of their reasoning. :wink:
Perhaps a better phrasing of what I said would be: "there isn't too much good reasoning that occurs in depression". Is that better for you? :sherlock:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: MushroomTrip] * 1
    #11014297 -

Not really, no. Brilliant people get depressed just as often as 'tards, -- perhaps even more so, because of how intelligence can be ostracized in this society (speaking more about adolescent depression there, I suppose).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've sensed a tone in your posts which suggests that you feel depression to be almost a matter of choice -- and if that is in fact what you believe, then I can't really imagine a way that we'll see eye-to-eye here, because I vehemently disagree with that idea.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: curious mouse]
    #11014301 -

curious mouse said:
MushroomTrip said:
I disagree.
The roots of depression are one's inability to accept their current condition, the ways they interact with other living being, and the nature of their surroundings. Society with any of its aspects doesn't directly make you depressed, but the way you choose to think about that particular aspect.

Also, the belief that depression enhances creativity is nothing but a myth, very much like the commonly met belief that autistic are brilliant. Correlation is not causation.


i don't see how you could deny a profound mental experience to affect ones outlooks and creative motivations later in life.

society directly affects the ways in which we "see" the world.....our inherited social programming is the product of learned behaviours/communications and even thoughts processes that replicate generation after generation with slight variations.


curious mouse said:
MushroomTrip said:
I disagree.
The roots of depression are one's inability to accept their current condition, the ways they interact with other living being, and the nature of their surroundings. Society with any of its aspects doesn't directly make you depressed, but the way you choose to think about that particular aspect.

Also, the belief that depression enhances creativity is nothing but a myth, very much like the commonly met belief that autistic are brilliant. Correlation is not causation.


i don't see how you could deny a profound mental experience to affect ones outlooks and creative motivations later in life.

society directly affects the ways in which we "see" the world.....our inherited social programming is the product of learned behaviours/communications and even thoughts processes that replicate generation after generation with slight variations.


And none of that shows that there is a causal tie between depression and some nebulous idea of creativity.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: curious mouse]
    #11014306 -

curious mouse said:
i don't see how you could deny a profound mental experience to affect ones outlooks and creative motivations later in life.



Did you read my reply to kickle?
If yes, then why are still asking this question like this? If no, then read it. :grin:

Quote:
society directly affects the ways in which we "see" the world.....our inherited social programming is the product of learned behaviours/communications and even thoughts processes that replicate generation after generation with slight variations.


This doesn't mean in any way that society causes depression to exist, it only means that society creates an adversity to which the individual is free to respond with depression, happiness, love or indifference.
Also, societal factors are only a part of the adversities that can create a depressive response, because there's also one's relation with oneself that poses lots of complex issues and if there's no self-acceptance then one has very high chances to become depressed, and you also have one's relation to natural forces that don't belong to society such as storms, winds, freezing, drought, etc.
Of course, like I already said, all of these only influences one's thoughts, and they don't dictate in any way how one should feel.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11014385 -

laserpig said:
Not really, no. Brilliant people get depressed just as often as 'tards,


They might be "brilliant" in whatever makes them brilliant, but when it comes to handling their emotions it seems more than obvious that they're not - otherwise they wouldn't choose to feel depressed just because of some irrational self importance that makes them think that they deserve better than what they have. Because, after all, this is what it comes down to, when one thinks that their standards aren't satisfied and denies the bare reality of the matter, the mere thought that they should have better becomes more and more obsessive and turns their feelings into apathy, sadness, anxiety or depression.
I don't even know why you would feel the need to specify that "brilliant" people are more depressed than "tards", firstly without any substantiation of the claim and secondly as if brilliancy or tardness are absolutes and that people can't both be stupid and smart at the same time, on certain different aspects of their lives.

Quote:
-- perhaps even more so, because of how intelligence can be ostracized in this society (speaking more about adolescent depression there, I suppose).


Intelligence is ostracized in this society? Please. :lol:
Yeah really, please demonstrate how this happens and demonstrate how this means that it should make smart people feel depressed.

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've sensed a tone in your posts which suggests that you feel depression to be almost a matter of choice -- and if that is in fact what you believe, then I can't really imagine a way that we'll see eye-to-eye here, because I vehemently disagree with that idea.


Disagree all you want, until you actually show a valid reasoning that sustains your disagreement, this discussion (or any other similar discussion) will lead you nowhere. I have already explained why I think that depression, or any other feeling or thought for that matter, is only a matter of personal choice.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11014411 -

MT, do we really chose what we learn from society, particularly in the early stages of life?
And if not, do these influence our later thoughts and interpretations of said thoughts?

Thoughts of 'I'm not good enough' are compared against a standard. Where does that standard come from? Do we freely choose what we determine as 'good' and 'bad' in terms of success, or does society provide a structure? This is not to say that an individual can not develop a structure of their own, but in the early stages, or until it becomes evident that the societal structure isn't adaptive for an individual (because it must be adaptive for society), is it really a choice? Wording it slightly different for clarification: Do we choose what values are presented to us in our learning stages?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (09/07/09 02:26 PM)

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11014426 -

Like I said, we are not gonna see eye-to-eye here.

If you really do believe that people can choose their emotional state ... good for you. I don't have any interest at this moment in trying to talk you out of it.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11014624 -

Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Intelligence is ostracized in this society? Please. :lol:
Yeah really, please demonstrate how this happens and demonstrate how this means that it should make smart people feel depressed.


I can give you a personal example.
I grew up in a small school, one where I excelled. Top of my class, whatever, it doesn't really mean much because it's a different story in a small school than a large one.
However, I WAS ostracized.
I was moved into a group with one other girl by the 1st grade. We were assigned different tasks, different assignments.
We were reading books while the others were doing.. well, I don't even know!
Through the 5th grade, it continued this way. My parents tried to convince me to change schools, but despite my educational separation, athletics had provided me with several wonderful friends.
I was unwilling to part with them.

By the later grades, I was ostracized in a different way. They no longer had the resources to separate me from others, and IMO the teachers were unwilling to go beyond doing the bare minimum. I remember comments that were spoken aloud to the class such as: "I know I should be getting [Kickle] some more material, but I can't leave you guys [the class] alone." when I would finish my assignments well ahead of schedule. I was isolated, singled out... an outlier. One which they didn't know what to do with.

By high school I had learned that I didn't even need to try to pass classes. I skipped the majority of my courses and still pulled a B+ average. Enough to keep my discount on car insurance, and the dean off my ass. If a teacher tried to punish me for missing classes, I'd get prickly. I'd fight for my right to slack, knowing full well that I could produce the grades despite it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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