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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10858457 -

Also, tell me where my claims conflict and I'll try and clear up the confusion for you, as futile as that would be.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Middleman]
    #10858518 -

Middleman said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


Flawed logic. If 'it can be measured and tested by normal means' it isn't paranormal. :flowstone:


Sorry, good points will not be addressed in this thread.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10859038 -

deranger said:
MushroomTrip said:
Middleman said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


Flawed logic. If 'it can be measured and tested by normal means' it isn't paranormal. :flowstone:


Then why do these paranormals claim they can guess your fortune, worldly events, and your lottery numbers?


Your question is irrelevant.

Experiences such as NDEs, astral projection, OBEs, which cannot be measured by scientific means, or experienced by the masses, are beyond the ordinary experience, therefore considered supernatural.





Huh?


Maybe you missed it, but these claims that various things can't be measured by scientific means has been challenged.  Back up this claim, I sure don't see it as being correct.



How the hell can't you measure these things?  I have no idea why folks think "science" involves some difficult proceudre and arcane tools which cannot touch such a large part of the universe.


If it exists it can be measured.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10861861 -

Show me where my consciousness is while experiencing astral projection.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10862312 -

I have no idea what that sentence means, but it does look like your shifting your burden of proof to me, which is obviously fallacious.


Anyways, what does "where my consciouness is" mean?



This isn't even what I said though,l you speak of wanting to know something while you experience astral projection.  While I'm not sure what exactly astral projection is or what you want to know, that isn't the point- you previously said science can't measure various phenomenal, and this is what I challenge.


Please back up this claim.  If your going to challenge me, please explain more clearly what your asking.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10864112 -

deranger said:
Show me where my consciousness is while experiencing astral projection.


At this point in time there is no way to know for sure and this is because we are talking about something that cannot be measured by scientific means, which I'm sure is the point you're trying to make here.

Although astral projection is a fairly well-known term among most psychedelic circles it seems to be a confusing subject for most school kids.

Paranormal phenomenon is that which exists outside of the realm of science. Basically what this means is that when something cannot be proven or disproven by science it is considered paranormal phenomena. Although it is true that science cannot prove that some things exist they also cannot prove that they don't exist and therefore these things must be considered a possibility. Although you cannot say without a doubt that paranormal phenomena exists (unless you have had direct experience that cannot be explained in any other way), in the same respect you cannot say that paranormal phenomena does not exist. These things that exist outside the realm of science must be accepted as a possibility. It seems a waste of time to argue with anyone who does not understand this simple concept. In other words, anyone who suggests that it is wrong to believe that paranormal phenomena exists because it cannot be proven with science are being hypocritical because that same science is not able to prove that these things do not exist.

If science was so infallible then we could use science to prove that these things do not exist. This concept is very easy to understand and this is why it is a complete waste of time to argue with anyone who does not see paranormal phenomena as a possibility.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10864383 -

Quote:
we are talking about something that cannot be measured by scientific means,



Hello?  This has been challenged repeatedly, are you just going to parrot it in lieu of providing any argument at all that it is true?


Quote:
If science was so infallible then we could use science to prove that these things do not exist.



Why?  I don't understand how you've concluded this, one does not flow from the other.


Just another conclusion based on nothing (I'm guessing, we'll see) that you will parrot.  This makes as much sense as saying if addition was such an infallible process it would climb mountains for us.


You've just declared a naked conclusion, with no factual support, despite it being challenged in this thread repeatedly.  Back it up or stop parroting your conclusions in lieu of an actual argument.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10864479 -

My opening point was clear as day. Why do you struggle with it? Forget the word 'paranormal' and focus on the concept.

If something interacts with the physical world it can be measured/detected/observed. This is fact.

If something does not interact with the physical world then any claimed observation of such is indistinguishable from fantasy/imagination/delusion.

Now what part is arguable?


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10864494 -

Quote:
Although it is true that science cannot prove that some things exist they also cannot prove that they don't exist and therefore these things must be considered a possibility.


Science doesn't prove things, it disproves things.

Quote:
Although you cannot say without a doubt that paranormal phenomena exists (unless you have had direct experience that cannot be explained in any other way), in the same respect you cannot say that paranormal phenomena does not exist.


When dealing with my own emotions (which would be what you experience said paranormal phenomena with), I try not to use definitives. By this I mean you do not know that these cannot be explained any other way, but rather you don't know of a way that they can be explained.

The Sun spun around the Earth hundreds of thousands of times before we realized, it didn't. :shrug:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Edited by Bernackums (08/15/09 01:42 PM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10864552 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
My opening point was clear as day. Why do you struggle with it? Forget the word 'paranormal' and focus on the concept.

If something interacts with the physical world it can be measured/detected/observed. This is fact.

If something does not interact with the physical world then any claimed observation of such is indistinguishable from fantasy/imagination/delusion.

Now what part is arguable?




Good question.  He didn't so much "argue" the point as he did simply declare the contrary position and offer absolutely no reasoning, despite the point being challenged previously.


I believe people have a bizarre overly formal definition of science and scientific evidence, that's the only way I can understand their beleifs at all.  Apparently seeing something or reporting your thoughts are not scientific evidence, who knew?  I guess they've just destroyed a great deal of research in one conclusory statement backed by neither argument nor fact.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10864636 -

Quote:
Whaah.  I'm not the one who is pretending to know what these experiences are.  Please, point me in the direction where I have.


I was asking middleman for clarifications about what being paranormal means, giving him examples where people claiming to be paranormal fail at proving so, even though they claim that their psychic powers can be observed in reality (i.e. reading your future, guessing the lottery numbers for the current week, etc.), to which you replied:

Quote:
Your question is irrelevant.

Experiences such as NDEs, astral projection, OBEs, which cannot be measured by scientific means, or experienced by the masses, are beyond the ordinary experience, therefore considered supernatural.


I then asked you what paranormal means, and I provided other life examples where people claim to astral project and OBE. All these examples, according to the people who experienced OBE and astral projection, took them to different places, about which I asked you if they were real or not, because if they were not it means that they were the mere result of their imagination and that this can hardly be called paranormal activity because it's nothing more than one's active imagination, and "the masses" have this thing too.
Of course, you miserably and lamentably failed to address any of my points, choosing to repeat the same old crap that goes like "these experiences cannot be measured/seen by scientific means" and, of course, my favorite, "Funny how something so simple can be rendered so complex."

Now tell me, who's the one that kept pretending in this thread they knew when they were talking about, and then trey tried to pin in on me, even though I never claimed what "paranormal" means? Moreover, the bare reason why I started posting in this thread is because I have no clue what you people are talking about amongst your kind that pretends to know what paranormal activities are but when asked for clarification you're not making the slightest sense.

To prove even more your inability to explain your mumbles, when I asked you further about the nature of the paranormal, you said that you never stated either that these experiences exist in reality or that they don't. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but it's about time you find out a basic thing about the character of reality: one thing either IS or ISN'T. So, what is the case with the paranormal? Does it EXIST in reality, or it DOESN'T?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10864791 -

:rofl:

I rest my case.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10864962 -

johnm214 said:
I have no idea what that sentence means, but it does look like your shifting your burden of proof to me, which is obviously fallacious.


I haven't tried to prove anything, rather than to state that we don't know shit yet pretend we do.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10865022 -

zen buddy said:
:rofl:

I rest my case.


Sums up my thoughts

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10865186 -

deranger said:
johnm214 said:
I have no idea what that sentence means, but it does look like your shifting your burden of proof to me, which is obviously fallacious.


I haven't tried to prove anything, rather than to state that we don't know shit yet pretend we do.




Who's we? 


Anyways, I don't see many people doing that here.  The whole point is that we shouldn't make conclusions untill we have sufficient evidence to support them.  Rejecting conclusions is percisely what we should do in such a case, a point I've made quite clearly in this thread to others alleging that somehow a rejection of conclusions that paranormal activity exists is not a conclusion that it does not (a distinction some continue to fail to see for some reason, which is baffling and seems in some instances to just be disingenuous argument).


I didn't say you were trying to prove anything, moreover, only that telling others they need to prove the contrary of your position is irrational.


You've still not defined what you are asking for nor explained how science cannot detect paranormal activity or whatnot.  Are you conceeding the point since you've neglected it?

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10865241 -

johnm214 said:
You've still not defined what you are asking for nor explained how science cannot detect paranormal activity or whatnot.  Are you conceeding the point since you've neglected it?



Take the DMT entities, they are not measurable by scientific means. Does that mean they are not real? Some people who have interacted with them have come to the conclusion that they are real. You cannot state that they don't exist because science cannot detect them. Do you refuse to accept subjective evidence? If so why?

johnm214 said:
If it exists it can be measured.


I would like to see you back up this claim. I think that the day before they identified radiation scientists probably had the same belief. Perhaps some things that are claimed to be paranormal are going to be scientifically proven in the future. I am quite sure that some things that are called paranormal are being misidentified. That doesn't mean there is nothing there.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10865267 -

toys in the attic said:
Take the DMT entities, they are not measurable by scientific means. Does that mean they are not real? Some people who have interacted with them have come to the conclusion that they are real. You cannot state that they don't exist because science cannot detect them. Do you refuse to accept subjective evidence? If so why?


That the perception of DMT entities are real doesn't necessarily mean that said entities are real in the objective world. There really is no need to conduct a scientific investigation on whether or not the perception of DMT entities can potentially exist, because it's basically a given.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10865330 -

toys in the attic said:
Take the DMT entities, they are not measurable by scientific means. Does that mean they are not real?


Take a wild guess Dingus. :imslow:

Quote:
Some people who have interacted with them have come to the conclusion that they are real.


So?

Quote:
You cannot state that they don't exist because science cannot detect them.


And yet you can't even dare to say they exist either. :tongue2:

Quote:
Do you refuse to accept subjective evidence? If so why?


Subjective evidence is worth something only for the person that's having it. Others can wipe their asses with it I say.

And so on and so forth...


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Poid]
    #10865336 -

You added the word perception to what I said. Since I didn't say that your post is meaningless.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10865447 -

johnm214 said:
The whole point is that we shouldn't make conclusions untill we have sufficient evidence to support them.


Exactly, and this is why I am debating against this attitude:

Mushroom Trip said:
Then why is it that they are pompously called "paranormal activities", when they're merely the active imagination that each and every one of us possesses?


Quote:
Rejecting conclusions is percisely what we should do in such a case, a point I've made quite clearly in this thread to others alleging that somehow a rejection of conclusions that paranormal activity exists is not a conclusion that it does not (a distinction some continue to fail to see for some reason, which is baffling and seems in some instances to just be disingenuous argument).


By definition, paranormal activities or experiences exist because example: astral projection is an experience that cannot be explained scientifically nor is it a normal experience.  What's so difficult to understand about this?

Quote:
I didn't say you were trying to prove anything, moreover, only that telling others they need to prove the contrary of your position is irrational.


Prove the contrary of my position?  My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.  What's the contrary of that?  That we know, meaning we have come to a conclusion.  And there are no conclusions when it comes to astral travel.

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