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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10869670 -

MushroomTrip said:
deranger said:
How could an experience not exist.  OBE is merely a label for an experience.  :banghead:


OBE stands for out of body experience. Is there any evidence in any way that people get out of their bodies when they say they had such experiences? Are you using a different language where OBE means something else? :strokebeard:


The definition of OBE I go by is seeing from outside of the body or normal perspective.  I have on numerous occasions seen my body from an outside perspective.  Whether or not I am actually outside of my body is out of the question.  OBE is a label to describe that experience.  We need words for things you know.

Edited by deranger (08/16/09 11:02 AM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869676 -

deranger said:
How could an experience not exist.  OBE is merely a label for an experience.  :banghead:


Degranger:
All you are going to do is hurt yourself. If this thread goes on for 100,000 pages it will be at the same place. These people do not understand nor do they want to understand.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10869724 -

words don't hurt

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869734 -

You are banging your head into the wall.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10869757 -

it's just an expression dude.  i have had this exact debate in the past and came out feeling fine :shrug:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869764 -

deranger said:
it's just an expression dude.  i have had this exact debate in the past and came out feeling fine :shrug:


Did you change anyone's mind? Do you like having the same debate over and over like groundhog's day?

If that's what you are into that's fine. I think it is a waste of time.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869778 -

deranger said:
johnm214 said:
Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?


Can you detect a feeling of anger?  You can detect the neural activity it may arise from, but not the feeling itself.




Yes, you can detect anger.



I'm sorry, but if your defense is that things can't be directly detected, the paranormal is no different than anything else in the world.



There is nothing that can detect "the thing itself" as you say, so there is no reason to single out paranormal things.


Like everything else, they can be tested and like everything else, they can't directly measure the target of study without some intermediary.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10869831 -

johnm214 said:
Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?


How can you claim that you have the ability to detect everything? It is very reasonable to consider that your detection methods are inadequate.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869843 -

deranger said:
Sure, but that doesn't explain fully and exactly what is happening.


Of course not, but it means that you can detect anger, as opposed to being able to detect OBE. :shrug:

Quote:
For example, when we experience bliss, there could be brain activity (i don't know the science), yet there is also something that is happening outside of the brain.


Where would that outside of the brain be, exactly, and what is it that's happening there?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869868 -

deranger said:
The definition of OBE I go by is seeing from outside of the body or normal perspective.  I have on numerous occasions seen my body from an outside perspective.  Whether or not I am actually outside of my body is out of the question.  OBE is a label to describe that experience.  We need words for things you know.


Why use words that might have nothing to do with the experience of actually getting out of one's body? Does it make sense to claim you had an experience which you don't know how it actually feels, since you can't truly say you got out of your body?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869901 -

There are two culimnating arguments in this thread.

1. If it exists it can be measured.

2. It can exist, even if it cant be measured.

Important and all encompassing is defining what 'EXISTS' refers to.

In both arguments, there actually seems to be a different definition for this encryption.

For 1, it seems to be used in the traditional scientific sense of becoming apparent to all, regardless of experience and upbringing or anything that alters perception. Ie. It doesnt matter what you were taught when we were kids, we will be able to see the sun come up every morning and we can all agree on the existence of this phenomena.

For 2, the encryption 'exists' is used to refer to anything that can be experienced, not limited to the five senses. This is why one both sides there is alot of ' What does, where my conciousness is mean?'

Resolve

To keep arguing effectively, it would be better to argue about whether there is more than five senses to experience something and then whether the scientific method is an effective way to measure whether something 'exists'.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10869907 -

I believe that the scientific method is only as effective at understanding this world, as a direct reflection of the extent to which their tools measure can that which has an impact on peoples lives.

The only difficulty I see with this is that we generally use science to understand all the ways in which a person can be affected. Ie. A person gets into a car crash and can no longer see. With our tools, we measure and conclude that the person has lost their eye sight and that is why their experience has changed so dramatically. The problem is in recognizing that we may not have a complete grasp on the mechanisms that have an impact on a persons experience. Usually when a person experiences impacts that have no direct correlation to the five mechanisms that science used(touch, taste, smell, sight, hearing), such as in OBE's and NDE's, science basic premise(that the world can only be experienced and measured through these five mechanisms) has people conclude that these things do not exist.

This is problematic; how can we conclude that there is only five mechanisms through which we can decide what exists and does not exist? Where did this conclusion come from and with things like OBE's, is it useful to conclude this? I agree with using our five senses for medicine(to some extent), but for OBE's and miracle healings we seem to need another way to measure this.

It comes down to usefulness, how much can we utlize our mechanisms of measurement and where do they fail us?

From what I understood from my professor, there are alot of scientists that want to keep things the way they are, with the limited


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10869969 -

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
For example, when we experience bliss, there could be brain activity (i don't know the science), yet there is also something that is happening outside of the brain.


Where would that outside of the brain be, exactly, and what is it that's happening there?


When I experience bliss, I feel it in my body.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869973 -

toys in the attic said:
johnm214 said:
Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?


How can you claim that you have the ability to detect everything? It is very reasonable to consider that your detection methods are inadequate.


This is exactly the attitude I am against.  It is pure arrogance.  I'll take your advice, this is going nowhere except in circles.

Edited by deranger (08/16/09 12:01 PM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10870007 -

I find it sad, because I would enjoy a decent conversation with a scientific person. Unfortunately that will not happen here. Scientific Skepticism is like any other religion. It keeps the believer safe in an explainable world. You would have better luck with fivepointer.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10870096 -

Quote:
It keeps the believer safe in an explainable world.


If that were true, nothing would have ever been invented and everything would have remained unchanged.

Instead of discussing, you resort to the ad hominem. How totally novel! :congrats:


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10870120 -

And smart! :laugh:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10870134 -

Out of all the possible phenomenon in the world, the mysticheads focus on internal brainstates, that is how incredibly weak their case is.

"Science can't read our minds so it fails."

The depth here is almost like what one might find on a drug board instead of a philosophy board.


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10870154 -

MushroomTrip said:
And smart! :laugh:


And spiritual. I feel the oneness and the love. :hug:


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10870516 -

johnm214 said:
By definition paranormal activiets are what?  You said previously they couldn't be tested/measured by science, and haven't demonstrated this beyond repeating it and appealing to definitions (which I don't understand either).




from dictionary.com

par⋅a⋅nor⋅mal

–adjective
of or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation, as psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, or other purportedly supernatural phenomena.

I hope this helps.

:rolleyes:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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