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All you need to know about The Paranormal
    #10835779 -

If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means. Conversely, if a given phenomenon has no impact on the physical world and can't be detected, then it is indistinguishable from fantasy or delusion.


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10835888 -

But why does a witch weigh the same as a duck?

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10836080 -

Strangely enough, I agree. Too bad many people overstep that, assuming that what can be verified for one using standard tools of objectivity, should be verified for all :shrug:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Kickle]
    #10836403 -

Perhaps we don't possess a device capable of such detection.

Is it really that difficult to imagine that our technology is limited along with our understandings of the universe?

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10836536 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


What are these "normal means" you speak of. Normal according to whose standard and what time.

OrgoneConclusion said:
Conversely, if a given phenomenon has no impact on the physical world and can't be detected, then it is indistinguishable from fantasy or delusion.


I don't disagree. Although if technology has shown us anything, it has shown how sometimes fantasy and delusion can come true.


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Kickle]
    #10836627 -

zen buddy said:
Perhaps we don't possess a device capable of such detection.

Is it really that difficult to imagine that our technology is limited along with our understandings of the universe?




No it isn't difficult to imagine this, thought I don't understand the relevance.



The whole point is that if it has any effect on the physical world (like everything else that we know of), it will be detectable in some manner by the very means in which it effects the physical world.


The point seems to be that their is really no excuse to allude to mysteriousness or whatever other manner of ignorance folks try to appeal to when excusing the failure to detect phenomena.


If it exists and is capable of becoming known to a person through casual means, then it should certainly be able to be detected.  I've heard folks make claims to beleive in rather easily tested phenomena, and it seems as if their is no excuse for the failure to detect such, if one looks.

The corrolary that such things' effects should be able to be shown undetectable by the same means in many cases is even more practically relevant. 


Kickle said:
Strangely enough, I agree. Too bad many people overstep that, assuming that what can be verified for one using standard tools of objectivity, should be verified for all :shrug:



What do you mean?  An assumption that folks should come to the same conclusion?  Why shouldn't they?  If you have certain facts, I fail to see how inconsistant conclusions can coexist without error.


Perhaps your neglecting that an answer should specify the percision or confidence of the result as well?  So when a presumption is made, such should be noted and the confidence in the answer adjusted accordingly.  If the presumption is unsupported, you will quickly come to an answer that is practically useless for its breadth, but certainly not inaccurate because of it.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10836972 -

Quote:
What do you mean?  An assumption that folks should come to the same conclusion?  Why shouldn't they?  If you have certain facts, I fail to see how inconsistant conclusions can coexist without error.


You're right, I should have specified.

Repeatability is what I'm referring to. What happens for me, and what I can confirm for myself using objective standards, or at least objective to my satisfaction of separating fact from fiction, does not necessitate repeatability. The events that have occurred in my life were not controlled by me, and therefore I should have no reason to believe I can repeat them. However, they have been verified for me in an objective sense, and I would be unable to decipher fantasy from reality without that guide.

So different conclusions result from different standards. Do you trust me, or do you refuse to trust me until I can repeat these highly individual events for you?

C'est la vie.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Kickle]
    #10837015 -

Should we trust the judgment of the 10,000 witnesses of 'The Phoenix Lights' who concluded that military flares were an alien mothership?

A simple Yes or No will suffice.

Should we trust the thousands of witnesses that believe that Criss Angel is performing real magick when he levitates, walks on water, disappears or reads minds?

A simple Yes or No will suffice.


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10837074 -

I'm unfamiliar with the first case, so I can't give you a yes or a no.

To the second, no.
Even though it is repeatable :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10838315 -

Should we trust the judgment of a few shroomerites who can so easily deny such an obvious fact?

zen buddy said:
Perhaps we don't possess a device capable of such detection.

Is it really that difficult to imagine that our technology is limited along with our understandings of the universe?


... just in case you missed it ...

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10838831 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means. Conversely, if a given phenomenon has no impact on the physical world and can't be detected, then it is indistinguishable from fantasy or delusion.


What about electromagnetic phenomena before we had the instruments to detect them? UV light still gave people sun burns didn't it? Radioactive materials still had subtle adverse effects on people but of course back then they probably would of had some "rational" explanation for these things which were far from the truth which was a little more complex than they could understand at the time. If someone happened to be sensitive to EM radiation back then would he be delusional? I'd love to believe that we're not being effected by things we can't perceive or detect with any instruments we have at the moment because the possibilities haunt me when I start thinking too much but I have trouble sticking my head in the sand like that.


--------------------
Mother goose said to the swan "Is that PCP your cooking?" and the swan replied "Yes, yes it is.

Edited by jonnyjonjonjon (08/11/09 11:05 AM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10839624 -

The effects of unproved phenomenas in people's mind have enough affect onto the physical surroundings (because of the acting humans) to even prove that those effects affect the environment :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Kickle]
    #10841753 -

Kickle said:
Quote:
What do you mean?  An assumption that folks should come to the same conclusion?  Why shouldn't they?  If you have certain facts, I fail to see how inconsistant conclusions can coexist without error.


You're right, I should have specified.

Repeatability is what I'm referring to. What happens for me, and what I can confirm for myself using objective standards, or at least objective to my satisfaction of separating fact from fiction, does not necessitate repeatability.

C'est la vie.




Sure, but that's kind of a side issue.


Obviously detecting no difference in an experimental group vs control doesn't prove their is no difference- we can't prove something is absent to any degree of confidence meerly by observing we have no evidence for it.  I think everyone would agree with you there.

Quote:
The events that have occurred in my life were not controlled by me, and therefore I should have no reason to believe I can repeat them. However, they have been verified for me in an objective sense, and I would be unable to decipher fantasy from reality without that guide.

So different conclusions result from different standards. Do you trust me, or do you refuse to trust me until I can repeat these highly individual events for you?


I do trust you, but I don't trust your conclusions.


In other words, if you testify to some observation I would believe you to a degree appropriate for an internet friend, but i wouldn't neccesarily come to the same conclusions you did, nor would I agree that failing to adopt your conclusions absent evidence is an issue of trust.


I'm not sure which you were referring to- conclusions or facts, but I would certainly trust the later.





I think the original point you made about different interpretations may deserve more percision in the wording, really.  Your conclusion that some particular paranormal event was observed would not be inconsistant with my conclusion that their is no modicum of evidence for such when reviewing data from some experiment someone did to try and find support for your claim. 


I think your referring more to the conclusions people have that aren't actually directly supported by the evidence, but go further and aren't as scientific as they are conjecture.  Things like "you didn't see a paranormal event" certainly are not supported by anything sufficient to overcome your observations, no matter how reasonable the conclusion may be, and as such shouldn't be treated as a confident logically/scientifically backed claim.


I think people often fail to differentiate between conjecture in scientific or logical papers/thoughts and actual objective findings.  All I'm saying is that while the former may indeed be plausibly different amongst different folks, the later should not be, and that there is no reason to believe there is room for inconsistant results from the analysis of the evidence of an event.


Do you see what I'm getting at?  Its the difference between saying "there are no ghosts" and "there is no evidence of ghosts found in this study"?


Often I hear people berate science or logic by complaining of conclusions that aren't directly demonstrated by the experiment/study yet included as possible interpretations, and turn out to be wrong, and use that inevitable failing to cast doubt upon the conclusions that are well supported (no ghosts were detected, the actual data collected and well supported analysis).  Just saying that conjecture can be different, but conjecture isn't regarded, or shouldn't be, as some logical or scientific conclusion worthy of confidence.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10842886 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Should we trust the thousands of witnesses that believe that Criss Angel is performing real magick when he levitates, walks on water, disappears or reads minds?


You seem to have "witnesses" confused with "payed actors" and "people who want to be on T.V"


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: yeah]
    #10842920 -

I know some fundamentalist Christians who think the devil helps him do paranormal things.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10844021 -

You cannot prove all that, so it's false.


--------------------
Ik hou van je

While you're still sleeping the saints are still weepin' cause things you call dead haven't yet had the chance to be born. -Scatman John

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10847247 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Should we trust the thousands of witnesses that believe that Criss Angel is performing real magick when he levitates, walks on water, disappears or reads minds?


Magick with a 'k' is a mystical practice and philosophical system. Criss Angel is an illusionist. LOL @ Christians.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10851607 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


Perhaps it has an effect on the psychological world, which can't be measured by any tools.

I've seen many christians absolutely convinced that prayer works.  I'm not a christian so I see no evidence of this, but who am I to say that their system is bunk?  I have my own sense of psychic intuition, but nobody can see it but me.  It's important to separate the physical world from the psychic world.  Obviously I can't meditate hard enough to make a building fall down, and a christain can't pray hard enough to make someone grow a new leg after an amputation.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10851761 -

Based on this criteria no evidence is as good some evidence. Lets use this method to run the physical world and see where it gets  us.:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10852609 -

RogerRabbit said:
Perhaps it has an effect on the psychological world, which can't be measured by any tools.


Freud was very skilled at measuring the psychological world. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Poid]
    #10852646 -

Jesus walked on water. :etjesus:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10852677 -

Eveyone who has walked outside in the rain has walked on water. :smirk:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10852693 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


Flawed logic. If 'it can be measured and tested by normal means' it isn't paranormal. :flowstone:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Middleman]
    #10852779 -

So basically, all paranormal phenomenon are unfalsifiable (like God)? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Middleman]
    #10852856 -

Middleman said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


Flawed logic. If 'it can be measured and tested by normal means' it isn't paranormal. :flowstone:


Then why do these paranormals claim they can guess your fortune, worldly events, and your lottery numbers? When nothing of their predictions turns out to be truth, will you use the same excuse and say that it's impossible to claim the verity of their words because they can't be measures through normal means? What, is there a paranormal parallel Universe in which those guesses were accurate and psychic no. 323 has won a million sparkle fairies?
:irdumbtard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10852911 -

MushroomTrip said:
What, is there a paranormal parallel Universe in which those guesses were accurate and psychic no. 323 has won a million sparkle fairies?
:irdumbtard:


That's a dumb question. Duh. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Poid]
    #10853683 -

Poid said:
Eveyone who has walked outside in the rain has walked on water. :smirk:


Snow, too.


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Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Bernackums]
    #10854290 -

Your bestest post ever.:thumbup: Where do you come up with this stuff?:whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10854422 -

Mardock, the sun god that dwells inside me.

Mardock, Son of Eya, Slayer of Timinat.



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Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Bernackums]
    #10854428 -

You don't say. Well I'll be. No kidding. :whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10855103 -

RogerRabbit said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


Perhaps it has an effect on the psychological world, which can't be measured by any tools.

I've seen many christians absolutely convinced that prayer works.  I'm not a christian so I see no evidence of this, but who am I to say that their system is bunk?  I have my own sense of psychic intuition, but nobody can see it but me.  It's important to separate the physical world from the psychic world.  Obviously I can't meditate hard enough to make a building fall down, and a christain can't pray hard enough to make someone grow a new leg after an amputation.
RR



1.  Since when can't the psychological world be measured with tools?  We do it all the time. i.e. surveys, observations of body position/movement, et cet

2.  Since when is something untestable if it can't be measured with tools?  We do this all the time as well.  i.e. the same examples as given in number one only analyzed. 



Both of these seem fatal to your suggestion, and it should seem so intuitively as well.  How could you ever gather reasonable evidence to believe in some phenomena's effect  if it cannot be detected?  I can think of no answer relevant to the situation discussed presently.


If this stuff exists it does soemthing, and that something could be detected.  If that something is indistinguishable from the universe without the something, then it really doesn't matter anyways, and probably meets the definition of somthing that doesn't exist.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10856643 -

MushroomTrip said:
Middleman said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


Flawed logic. If 'it can be measured and tested by normal means' it isn't paranormal. :flowstone:


Then why do these paranormals claim they can guess your fortune, worldly events, and your lottery numbers?


Your question is irrelevant.

Experiences such as NDEs, astral projection, OBEs, which cannot be measured by scientific means, or experienced by the masses, are beyond the ordinary experience, therefore considered supernatural.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10857753 -

How is it irrelevant? Just because you arbitrarily pick those aspects of the paranormal that supposedly can't be measured? Doesn't make much sense to me, and that's not playing nice. :nono:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10857985 -

if they are merely guessing those things, they aren't paranormals :thumbup:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10858167 -

Explain me astral projection then. Why can't those people describe the galaxies they see, the solar systems, and how they work? Maybe astrologists can make good use of this information and even identify them with the telescopes.
Also explain me OBE's. People claiming to have had them also say they saw the world around them, the people in other rooms, or even hear the discussions between doctors for those people that had OBE's during a surgery. Why do their stories never fit reality?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10858227 -

Nobody made the claim that these experiences have anything to do with what exists outside of the human mind/body.  The point is, these experiences cannot be measured/seen by scientific means, and are not of the normal day to day experience.  Funny how something so simple can be rendered so complex.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10858258 -

Hmmm, so let's review this: none of the psychic readings, OBE's, astral travelings and anything else that is "paranormal" have any touch with the external reality. This, of course, would mean that these things solely happen in the mind of the individual. Then why is it that they are pompously called "paranormal activities", when they're merely the active imagination that each and every one of us possesses? Could it be that some people are trying to fool themselves into thinking that they're special and that nobody can imagine things the way they do, just so they can protect their weak and frightened personalities? I think so. :yesnod:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10858305 -

MushroomTrip said:
Hmmm, so let's review this: none of the psychic readings, OBE's, astral travelings and anything else that is "paranormal" have any touch with the external reality.


Nobody said this either. 

Quote:
This, of course, would mean that these things solely happen in the mind of the individual. Then why is it that they are pompously called "paranormal activities", when they're merely the active imagination that each and every one of us possesses?


It could be imagination, or it could have much more to do with that.  Why pretend we know what something is when in reality we are merely playing a guessing game.  Experiences are pompously labeled things we have created within our own minds.  This labeling is delusion in itself. 

Quote:
Could it be that some people are trying to fool themselves into thinking that they're special and that nobody can imagine things the way they do, just so they can protect their weak and frightened personalities? I think so. :yesnod:


:drama:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10858323 -

Quote:
Nobody said this either.


Ok then explain why none of these are observable in external reality.  :flowstone:

Quote:
It could be imagination, or it could have much more to do with that.  Why pretend we know what something is when in reality we are merely playing a guessing game.  Experiences are pompously labeled things we have created within our own minds.  This labeling is delusion in itself.


Frankly, I have no idea why you pretend to know what you're talking about, when obviously, like you said, you have absolutely no clue, you mumble some terms and then change them to fit your latest conflicting claims. You're the one who made the labeling and tried to explain something "so simple that can be rendered so complex". How stupid is that? :lol:
Why don't you just admit that you're completely clueless?

Quote:
:drama:


At least we both agree that those people are drama queens. :wink:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10858439 -

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Nobody said this either.


Ok then explain why none of these are observable in external reality.


I just said I didn't say it.  Meaning I didn't state my beliefs on that matter.  I felt the need to clarify because you were putting words in my mouth, or it seemed that way at least.

Quote:
:flowstone:




Quote:
Frankly, I have no idea why you pretend to know what you're talking about, when obviously, like you said, you have absolutely no clue, you mumble some terms and then change them to fit your latest conflicting claims. You're the one who made the labeling and tried to explain something "so simple that can be rendered so complex". How stupid is that? :lol: Why don't you just admit that you're completely clueless?


Whaah.  I'm not the one who is pretending to know what these experiences are.  Please, point me in the direction where I have.

Quote:
At least we both agree that those people are drama queens. :wink:


:drama:


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10858457 -

Also, tell me where my claims conflict and I'll try and clear up the confusion for you, as futile as that would be.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Middleman]
    #10858518 -

Middleman said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


Flawed logic. If 'it can be measured and tested by normal means' it isn't paranormal. :flowstone:


Sorry, good points will not be addressed in this thread.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10859038 -

deranger said:
MushroomTrip said:
Middleman said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


Flawed logic. If 'it can be measured and tested by normal means' it isn't paranormal. :flowstone:


Then why do these paranormals claim they can guess your fortune, worldly events, and your lottery numbers?


Your question is irrelevant.

Experiences such as NDEs, astral projection, OBEs, which cannot be measured by scientific means, or experienced by the masses, are beyond the ordinary experience, therefore considered supernatural.





Huh?


Maybe you missed it, but these claims that various things can't be measured by scientific means has been challenged.  Back up this claim, I sure don't see it as being correct.



How the hell can't you measure these things?  I have no idea why folks think "science" involves some difficult proceudre and arcane tools which cannot touch such a large part of the universe.


If it exists it can be measured.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10861861 -

Show me where my consciousness is while experiencing astral projection.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10862312 -

I have no idea what that sentence means, but it does look like your shifting your burden of proof to me, which is obviously fallacious.


Anyways, what does "where my consciouness is" mean?



This isn't even what I said though,l you speak of wanting to know something while you experience astral projection.  While I'm not sure what exactly astral projection is or what you want to know, that isn't the point- you previously said science can't measure various phenomenal, and this is what I challenge.


Please back up this claim.  If your going to challenge me, please explain more clearly what your asking.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10864112 -

deranger said:
Show me where my consciousness is while experiencing astral projection.


At this point in time there is no way to know for sure and this is because we are talking about something that cannot be measured by scientific means, which I'm sure is the point you're trying to make here.

Although astral projection is a fairly well-known term among most psychedelic circles it seems to be a confusing subject for most school kids.

Paranormal phenomenon is that which exists outside of the realm of science. Basically what this means is that when something cannot be proven or disproven by science it is considered paranormal phenomena. Although it is true that science cannot prove that some things exist they also cannot prove that they don't exist and therefore these things must be considered a possibility. Although you cannot say without a doubt that paranormal phenomena exists (unless you have had direct experience that cannot be explained in any other way), in the same respect you cannot say that paranormal phenomena does not exist. These things that exist outside the realm of science must be accepted as a possibility. It seems a waste of time to argue with anyone who does not understand this simple concept. In other words, anyone who suggests that it is wrong to believe that paranormal phenomena exists because it cannot be proven with science are being hypocritical because that same science is not able to prove that these things do not exist.

If science was so infallible then we could use science to prove that these things do not exist. This concept is very easy to understand and this is why it is a complete waste of time to argue with anyone who does not see paranormal phenomena as a possibility.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10864383 -

Quote:
we are talking about something that cannot be measured by scientific means,



Hello?  This has been challenged repeatedly, are you just going to parrot it in lieu of providing any argument at all that it is true?


Quote:
If science was so infallible then we could use science to prove that these things do not exist.



Why?  I don't understand how you've concluded this, one does not flow from the other.


Just another conclusion based on nothing (I'm guessing, we'll see) that you will parrot.  This makes as much sense as saying if addition was such an infallible process it would climb mountains for us.


You've just declared a naked conclusion, with no factual support, despite it being challenged in this thread repeatedly.  Back it up or stop parroting your conclusions in lieu of an actual argument.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10864479 -

My opening point was clear as day. Why do you struggle with it? Forget the word 'paranormal' and focus on the concept.

If something interacts with the physical world it can be measured/detected/observed. This is fact.

If something does not interact with the physical world then any claimed observation of such is indistinguishable from fantasy/imagination/delusion.

Now what part is arguable?


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10864494 -

Quote:
Although it is true that science cannot prove that some things exist they also cannot prove that they don't exist and therefore these things must be considered a possibility.


Science doesn't prove things, it disproves things.

Quote:
Although you cannot say without a doubt that paranormal phenomena exists (unless you have had direct experience that cannot be explained in any other way), in the same respect you cannot say that paranormal phenomena does not exist.


When dealing with my own emotions (which would be what you experience said paranormal phenomena with), I try not to use definitives. By this I mean you do not know that these cannot be explained any other way, but rather you don't know of a way that they can be explained.

The Sun spun around the Earth hundreds of thousands of times before we realized, it didn't. :shrug:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Edited by Bernackums (08/15/09 01:42 PM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10864552 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
My opening point was clear as day. Why do you struggle with it? Forget the word 'paranormal' and focus on the concept.

If something interacts with the physical world it can be measured/detected/observed. This is fact.

If something does not interact with the physical world then any claimed observation of such is indistinguishable from fantasy/imagination/delusion.

Now what part is arguable?




Good question.  He didn't so much "argue" the point as he did simply declare the contrary position and offer absolutely no reasoning, despite the point being challenged previously.


I believe people have a bizarre overly formal definition of science and scientific evidence, that's the only way I can understand their beleifs at all.  Apparently seeing something or reporting your thoughts are not scientific evidence, who knew?  I guess they've just destroyed a great deal of research in one conclusory statement backed by neither argument nor fact.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10864636 -

Quote:
Whaah.  I'm not the one who is pretending to know what these experiences are.  Please, point me in the direction where I have.


I was asking middleman for clarifications about what being paranormal means, giving him examples where people claiming to be paranormal fail at proving so, even though they claim that their psychic powers can be observed in reality (i.e. reading your future, guessing the lottery numbers for the current week, etc.), to which you replied:

Quote:
Your question is irrelevant.

Experiences such as NDEs, astral projection, OBEs, which cannot be measured by scientific means, or experienced by the masses, are beyond the ordinary experience, therefore considered supernatural.


I then asked you what paranormal means, and I provided other life examples where people claim to astral project and OBE. All these examples, according to the people who experienced OBE and astral projection, took them to different places, about which I asked you if they were real or not, because if they were not it means that they were the mere result of their imagination and that this can hardly be called paranormal activity because it's nothing more than one's active imagination, and "the masses" have this thing too.
Of course, you miserably and lamentably failed to address any of my points, choosing to repeat the same old crap that goes like "these experiences cannot be measured/seen by scientific means" and, of course, my favorite, "Funny how something so simple can be rendered so complex."

Now tell me, who's the one that kept pretending in this thread they knew when they were talking about, and then trey tried to pin in on me, even though I never claimed what "paranormal" means? Moreover, the bare reason why I started posting in this thread is because I have no clue what you people are talking about amongst your kind that pretends to know what paranormal activities are but when asked for clarification you're not making the slightest sense.

To prove even more your inability to explain your mumbles, when I asked you further about the nature of the paranormal, you said that you never stated either that these experiences exist in reality or that they don't. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but it's about time you find out a basic thing about the character of reality: one thing either IS or ISN'T. So, what is the case with the paranormal? Does it EXIST in reality, or it DOESN'T?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10864791 -

:rofl:

I rest my case.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10864962 -

johnm214 said:
I have no idea what that sentence means, but it does look like your shifting your burden of proof to me, which is obviously fallacious.


I haven't tried to prove anything, rather than to state that we don't know shit yet pretend we do.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10865022 -

zen buddy said:
:rofl:

I rest my case.


Sums up my thoughts

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10865186 -

deranger said:
johnm214 said:
I have no idea what that sentence means, but it does look like your shifting your burden of proof to me, which is obviously fallacious.


I haven't tried to prove anything, rather than to state that we don't know shit yet pretend we do.




Who's we? 


Anyways, I don't see many people doing that here.  The whole point is that we shouldn't make conclusions untill we have sufficient evidence to support them.  Rejecting conclusions is percisely what we should do in such a case, a point I've made quite clearly in this thread to others alleging that somehow a rejection of conclusions that paranormal activity exists is not a conclusion that it does not (a distinction some continue to fail to see for some reason, which is baffling and seems in some instances to just be disingenuous argument).


I didn't say you were trying to prove anything, moreover, only that telling others they need to prove the contrary of your position is irrational.


You've still not defined what you are asking for nor explained how science cannot detect paranormal activity or whatnot.  Are you conceeding the point since you've neglected it?

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10865241 -

johnm214 said:
You've still not defined what you are asking for nor explained how science cannot detect paranormal activity or whatnot.  Are you conceeding the point since you've neglected it?



Take the DMT entities, they are not measurable by scientific means. Does that mean they are not real? Some people who have interacted with them have come to the conclusion that they are real. You cannot state that they don't exist because science cannot detect them. Do you refuse to accept subjective evidence? If so why?

johnm214 said:
If it exists it can be measured.


I would like to see you back up this claim. I think that the day before they identified radiation scientists probably had the same belief. Perhaps some things that are claimed to be paranormal are going to be scientifically proven in the future. I am quite sure that some things that are called paranormal are being misidentified. That doesn't mean there is nothing there.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10865267 -

toys in the attic said:
Take the DMT entities, they are not measurable by scientific means. Does that mean they are not real? Some people who have interacted with them have come to the conclusion that they are real. You cannot state that they don't exist because science cannot detect them. Do you refuse to accept subjective evidence? If so why?


That the perception of DMT entities are real doesn't necessarily mean that said entities are real in the objective world. There really is no need to conduct a scientific investigation on whether or not the perception of DMT entities can potentially exist, because it's basically a given.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10865330 -

toys in the attic said:
Take the DMT entities, they are not measurable by scientific means. Does that mean they are not real?


Take a wild guess Dingus. :imslow:

Quote:
Some people who have interacted with them have come to the conclusion that they are real.


So?

Quote:
You cannot state that they don't exist because science cannot detect them.


And yet you can't even dare to say they exist either. :tongue2:

Quote:
Do you refuse to accept subjective evidence? If so why?


Subjective evidence is worth something only for the person that's having it. Others can wipe their asses with it I say.

And so on and so forth...


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Poid]
    #10865336 -

You added the word perception to what I said. Since I didn't say that your post is meaningless.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10865447 -

johnm214 said:
The whole point is that we shouldn't make conclusions untill we have sufficient evidence to support them.


Exactly, and this is why I am debating against this attitude:

Mushroom Trip said:
Then why is it that they are pompously called "paranormal activities", when they're merely the active imagination that each and every one of us possesses?


Quote:
Rejecting conclusions is percisely what we should do in such a case, a point I've made quite clearly in this thread to others alleging that somehow a rejection of conclusions that paranormal activity exists is not a conclusion that it does not (a distinction some continue to fail to see for some reason, which is baffling and seems in some instances to just be disingenuous argument).


By definition, paranormal activities or experiences exist because example: astral projection is an experience that cannot be explained scientifically nor is it a normal experience.  What's so difficult to understand about this?

Quote:
I didn't say you were trying to prove anything, moreover, only that telling others they need to prove the contrary of your position is irrational.


Prove the contrary of my position?  My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.  What's the contrary of that?  That we know, meaning we have come to a conclusion.  And there are no conclusions when it comes to astral travel.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10865462 -

Quote:
Take the DMT entities, they are not measurable by scientific means.


I did quite an extensive thread on this. Will try to do the short version. As one cannot use words to accurately describe 'a four-dimensional self transforming machine elf', no one knows that if what you are seeing is the same as what someone else is seeing.

I knew a few dozen people that did DMT long before McKenna's books came out and NOT ONE described their visions as elf-like. Do you understand the concept of cultural coloration?


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10865482 -

Quote:
My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.


We know that it is an internal state and that there is no evidence of anyone travelling outside of their body and viewing things in the physical world.

As there is no interaction with the physical world, there is little outside of psychology or brain scientists to study.


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10865551 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Take the DMT entities, they are not measurable by scientific means.


I did quite an extensive thread on this. Will try to do the short version. As one cannot use words to accurately describe 'a four-dimensional self transforming machine elf', no one knows that if what you are seeing is the same as what someone else is seeing.

I knew a few dozen people that did DMT long before McKenna's books came out and NOT ONE described their visions as elf-like. Do you understand the concept of cultural coloration?


I don't consider the form which the entities take to be a factor in determining their existence. I think they are a formless thing projected into the mind.

It is the same with things like the mushroom spirit. I don't feel there is a mushroom spirit. It is a spirit which can present itself in a way that is comfortable to the subject.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10865609 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.


We know that it is an internal state and that there is no evidence of anyone travelling outside of their body and viewing things in the physical world.

As there is no interaction with the physical world, there is little outside of psychology or brain scientists to study.


This isn't solid evidence.  I am still skeptical.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10865621 -

One more time reread the OP. Can't make it any simpler no matter how many pages this runs.


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10865628 -

Huh?


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10865629 -

Quote:
Prove the contrary of my position?  My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.  What's the contrary of that?  That we know, meaning we have come to a conclusion.  And there are no conclusions when it comes to astral travel.


So, we don't know ANYTHING about what OBE's and astral projection are, but yet you claim they exist. How can one state that an object whose properties are completely unknown exists? Doesn't it offend your sense of rationality? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10865647 -

:spock:


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10865671 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
One more time reread the OP. Can't make it any simpler no matter how many pages this runs.


I don't know what you are talking about. I was responding directly to what john said and then what you said. I guess you don't understand the concept of a thread.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10865687 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means. Conversely, if a given phenomenon has no impact on the physical world and can't be detected, then it is indistinguishable from fantasy or delusion.


No this is not true. If you can retrieve new information from a DMT elf then you can determine that it is not fantasy or delusion.

I am fully willing to accept other explanations, but I think that retrieving new information rules out fantasy or delusion.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10865722 -

Quote:
If you can retrieve new information from a DMT elf then you can determine that it is not fantasy or delusion.


If...if...if.

Are you saying you have received new information from these visions? If not, what is the point? If so, are you going to elaborate?


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10865754 -

:rolleyes:
Do you think I am going to be lured into a "Zen Buddy" hole? I brought it up because it is a plausible and pre-existing alternative that counters your OP.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10865792 -

Got it. You had absolutely nothing to offer. Elves remain in the drug-induced vision category.


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10867525 -

deranger said:
johnm214 said:
The whole point is that we shouldn't make conclusions untill we have sufficient evidence to support them.


Exactly, and this is why I am debating against this attitude:

Mushroom Trip said:
Then why is it that they are pompously called "paranormal activities", when they're merely the active imagination that each and every one of us possesses?




Yeah, mushroomtrip obviously can't know  they don't exist, but she certainly can conclude that's most likely given the fact that many assert belief but nobody can demonstrate it (so far that I've seen).


While she may be sloppy in her language, I bet if you asked her she'd say she doesn't know they don't exist, but rather doesn't believe people who claim they do, given the failure to provide evidence leading to this conclusion.

If she would maintain she has proof it doesn't exist, well I'd certainly agree that she's wrong- but reading her posts, I doubt that was the import of them, who knows though.

Quote:
Quote:
Rejecting conclusions is percisely what we should do in such a case, a point I've made quite clearly in this thread to others alleging that somehow a rejection of conclusions that paranormal activity exists is not a conclusion that it does not (a distinction some continue to fail to see for some reason, which is baffling and seems in some instances to just be disingenuous argument).


By definition, paranormal activities or experiences exist because example: astral projection is an experience that cannot be explained scientifically nor is it a normal experience.  What's so difficult to understand about this?


By definition paranormal activiets are what?  You said previously they couldn't be tested/measured by science, and haven't demonstrated this beyond repeating it and appealing to definitions (which I don't understand either).

Astral projection could certainly be measured.  The people could be asked to visualize locations, describe their experiences in all sorts of way, and these could be analyzed.  It could be determined if there is any consistancy at all, if so, it could show that it wasn't just chance.

That's just an example.  We could measure brain wave activity during various activiteis and astral projection, ask for drawings, whatever.


It seems that you like a lot of people have some degree of presumption that scientific investigation must be all fancy and whatnot.  It seems you've overlooked simply asking people to describe their experiences and developing standard measurement models based on either self-reporting or observation.  That is scientific measurement/testing.  Done.

If your appealing to semantics then, your going to need to back up your claims, as I certainly never understood paranormal to mean that.


Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?  How can astral projection interact with you and yet not be scientifically observable?  It defies all logic.  Either it interacts with the universe or it doesn't, and if it does, it will exert and effect that can be measured, especially if it is interacting with a person who is concious of it.

Like mushroomtrip, I had a great deal of trouble with middleman's baseless claim that by definition paranormal events aren't scientifically observable (or something to that effect).  He totally neglected orgone's point, and I still don't understand how he gets around it.

Quote:
Quote:
I didn't say you were trying to prove anything, moreover, only that telling others they need to prove the contrary of your position is irrational.


Prove the contrary of my position?  My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.  What's the contrary of that?  That we know, meaning we have come to a conclusion.  And there are no conclusions when it comes to astral travel.



I'm sorry, I guess i wasn't clear enough.



You said paranormal events can't be scientifically tested/measured.  I said that has been challenged previously in this thread, not answered, and that you should demonstrate its truth rather than just declaring it so.


you responded with:
Quote:
Show me where my consciousness is while experiencing astral projection.




As I said, i don't understand this question, but you certainly are asking me to demonstrate that I can show "where your conciousness is" when this is the contrary of the position you claimed and were challenged on.


You were challenged, and rather than respond, you shifted the burden to me and asked that I demonstrate that I could do something contrary to your position.


Do you understand now?

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10869551 -

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Prove the contrary of my position?  My position is that we don't know shit about astral projection.  What's the contrary of that?  That we know, meaning we have come to a conclusion.  And there are no conclusions when it comes to astral travel.


So, we don't know ANYTHING about what OBE's and astral projection are, but yet you claim they exist.


How could an experience not exist.  OBE is merely a label for an experience.  :banghead:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10869591 -

johnm214 said:
Astral projection could certainly be measured.  The people could be asked to visualize locations, describe their experiences in all sorts of way, and these could be analyzed.  It could be determined if there is any consistancy at all, if so, it could show that it wasn't just chance.

That's just an example.  We could measure brain wave activity during various activiteis and astral projection, ask for drawings, whatever.


It seems that you like a lot of people have some degree of presumption that scientific investigation must be all fancy and whatnot.  It seems you've overlooked simply asking people to describe their experiences and developing standard measurement models based on either self-reporting or observation.  That is scientific measurement/testing.  Done.


There haven't been any tests proving it the experiences solely exist within one's imagination.  There could be many possibilities.  All I'm saying is anything is possible.  That and playing devil's advocate.  I am skeptical of both sides, and started this debate with that mindset.

As far as I know, OBE's happen spontaneously.  In my experience at least.  That says a lot.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10869610 -

johnm214 said:
Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?


Can you detect a feeling of anger?  You can detect the neural activity it may arise from, but not the feeling itself.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869625 -

deranger said:
How could an experience not exist.  OBE is merely a label for an experience.  :banghead:


OBE stands for out of body experience. Is there any evidence in any way that people get out of their bodies when they say they had such experiences? Are you using a different language where OBE means something else? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869631 -

deranger said:
Can you detect a feeling of anger?  You can detect the neural activity it may arise from, but not the feeling itself.


Can you detect OBE through brain scans?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10869651 -

Sure, but that doesn't explain fully and exactly what is happening.  There may be much more to it than the activity that is going on within the brain.  For example, when we experience bliss, there could be brain activity (i don't know the science), yet there is also something that is happening outside of the brain.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10869670 -

MushroomTrip said:
deranger said:
How could an experience not exist.  OBE is merely a label for an experience.  :banghead:


OBE stands for out of body experience. Is there any evidence in any way that people get out of their bodies when they say they had such experiences? Are you using a different language where OBE means something else? :strokebeard:


The definition of OBE I go by is seeing from outside of the body or normal perspective.  I have on numerous occasions seen my body from an outside perspective.  Whether or not I am actually outside of my body is out of the question.  OBE is a label to describe that experience.  We need words for things you know.

Edited by deranger (08/16/09 11:02 AM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869676 -

deranger said:
How could an experience not exist.  OBE is merely a label for an experience.  :banghead:


Degranger:
All you are going to do is hurt yourself. If this thread goes on for 100,000 pages it will be at the same place. These people do not understand nor do they want to understand.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10869724 -

words don't hurt

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869734 -

You are banging your head into the wall.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10869757 -

it's just an expression dude.  i have had this exact debate in the past and came out feeling fine :shrug:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869764 -

deranger said:
it's just an expression dude.  i have had this exact debate in the past and came out feeling fine :shrug:


Did you change anyone's mind? Do you like having the same debate over and over like groundhog's day?

If that's what you are into that's fine. I think it is a waste of time.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869778 -

deranger said:
johnm214 said:
Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?


Can you detect a feeling of anger?  You can detect the neural activity it may arise from, but not the feeling itself.




Yes, you can detect anger.



I'm sorry, but if your defense is that things can't be directly detected, the paranormal is no different than anything else in the world.



There is nothing that can detect "the thing itself" as you say, so there is no reason to single out paranormal things.


Like everything else, they can be tested and like everything else, they can't directly measure the target of study without some intermediary.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10869831 -

johnm214 said:
Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?


How can you claim that you have the ability to detect everything? It is very reasonable to consider that your detection methods are inadequate.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869843 -

deranger said:
Sure, but that doesn't explain fully and exactly what is happening.


Of course not, but it means that you can detect anger, as opposed to being able to detect OBE. :shrug:

Quote:
For example, when we experience bliss, there could be brain activity (i don't know the science), yet there is also something that is happening outside of the brain.


Where would that outside of the brain be, exactly, and what is it that's happening there?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869868 -

deranger said:
The definition of OBE I go by is seeing from outside of the body or normal perspective.  I have on numerous occasions seen my body from an outside perspective.  Whether or not I am actually outside of my body is out of the question.  OBE is a label to describe that experience.  We need words for things you know.


Why use words that might have nothing to do with the experience of actually getting out of one's body? Does it make sense to claim you had an experience which you don't know how it actually feels, since you can't truly say you got out of your body?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869901 -

There are two culimnating arguments in this thread.

1. If it exists it can be measured.

2. It can exist, even if it cant be measured.

Important and all encompassing is defining what 'EXISTS' refers to.

In both arguments, there actually seems to be a different definition for this encryption.

For 1, it seems to be used in the traditional scientific sense of becoming apparent to all, regardless of experience and upbringing or anything that alters perception. Ie. It doesnt matter what you were taught when we were kids, we will be able to see the sun come up every morning and we can all agree on the existence of this phenomena.

For 2, the encryption 'exists' is used to refer to anything that can be experienced, not limited to the five senses. This is why one both sides there is alot of ' What does, where my conciousness is mean?'

Resolve

To keep arguing effectively, it would be better to argue about whether there is more than five senses to experience something and then whether the scientific method is an effective way to measure whether something 'exists'.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10869907 -

I believe that the scientific method is only as effective at understanding this world, as a direct reflection of the extent to which their tools measure can that which has an impact on peoples lives.

The only difficulty I see with this is that we generally use science to understand all the ways in which a person can be affected. Ie. A person gets into a car crash and can no longer see. With our tools, we measure and conclude that the person has lost their eye sight and that is why their experience has changed so dramatically. The problem is in recognizing that we may not have a complete grasp on the mechanisms that have an impact on a persons experience. Usually when a person experiences impacts that have no direct correlation to the five mechanisms that science used(touch, taste, smell, sight, hearing), such as in OBE's and NDE's, science basic premise(that the world can only be experienced and measured through these five mechanisms) has people conclude that these things do not exist.

This is problematic; how can we conclude that there is only five mechanisms through which we can decide what exists and does not exist? Where did this conclusion come from and with things like OBE's, is it useful to conclude this? I agree with using our five senses for medicine(to some extent), but for OBE's and miracle healings we seem to need another way to measure this.

It comes down to usefulness, how much can we utlize our mechanisms of measurement and where do they fail us?

From what I understood from my professor, there are alot of scientists that want to keep things the way they are, with the limited


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10869969 -

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
For example, when we experience bliss, there could be brain activity (i don't know the science), yet there is also something that is happening outside of the brain.


Where would that outside of the brain be, exactly, and what is it that's happening there?


When I experience bliss, I feel it in my body.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10869973 -

toys in the attic said:
johnm214 said:
Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?


How can you claim that you have the ability to detect everything? It is very reasonable to consider that your detection methods are inadequate.


This is exactly the attitude I am against.  It is pure arrogance.  I'll take your advice, this is going nowhere except in circles.

Edited by deranger (08/16/09 12:01 PM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10870007 -

I find it sad, because I would enjoy a decent conversation with a scientific person. Unfortunately that will not happen here. Scientific Skepticism is like any other religion. It keeps the believer safe in an explainable world. You would have better luck with fivepointer.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10870096 -

Quote:
It keeps the believer safe in an explainable world.


If that were true, nothing would have ever been invented and everything would have remained unchanged.

Instead of discussing, you resort to the ad hominem. How totally novel! :congrats:


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10870120 -

And smart! :laugh:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10870134 -

Out of all the possible phenomenon in the world, the mysticheads focus on internal brainstates, that is how incredibly weak their case is.

"Science can't read our minds so it fails."

The depth here is almost like what one might find on a drug board instead of a philosophy board.


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10870154 -

MushroomTrip said:
And smart! :laugh:


And spiritual. I feel the oneness and the love. :hug:


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10870516 -

johnm214 said:
By definition paranormal activiets are what?  You said previously they couldn't be tested/measured by science, and haven't demonstrated this beyond repeating it and appealing to definitions (which I don't understand either).




from dictionary.com

par⋅a⋅nor⋅mal

–adjective
of or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation, as psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, or other purportedly supernatural phenomena.

I hope this helps.

:rolleyes:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10870531 -

Perhaps it might actually help you.

If one can do PK, it can be observed as I claimed in the OP. Maybe you are actually coming around.


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10870629 -

toys in the attic said:
deranger said:
How could an experience not exist.  OBE is merely a label for an experience.  :banghead:


Degranger:
All you are going to do is hurt yourself. If this thread goes on for 100,000 pages it will be at the same place. These people do not understand nor do they want to understand.



Well said Zen Buddy.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10870727 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Perhaps it might actually help you.

If one can do PK, it can be observed as I claimed in the OP. Maybe you are actually coming around.


OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


As previously stated this is flawed logic...  According to the actual definition of paranormal, as soon as something can be measured and tested it would no longer be a paranormal phenomena.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10870747 -

You are making less sense with each passing post. First you say that PK is paranormal, then you say it isn't. Which is it?


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10870763 -

You are making less sense with each passing post.

Now you're just being silly.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10870789 -

toys in the attic said:
You added the word perception to what I said. Since I didn't say that your post is meaningless.


Not at all, DMT entities are merely subjective perceptions, whether or not you mentioned this earlier is irrelevant. We all know that DMT entities exist as subjective perceptions, but there is a small crowd of wishful thinkers that believe they may be real in the objective world...:strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Poid]
    #10870837 -

What few here seem to realize about their  "personal experience" is that it is meaningless if it is misinterpreted. And interpretation being completely subjective we cannot know if our interpretation is based in flawed logic or flawed emotionalism.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10870840 -

Icelander said:
You are making less sense with each passing post.

Now you're just being silly.:satansmoking:


True, he already bottomed out. I was just trying to leave the door open.


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10870856 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
You are making less sense with each passing post. First you say that PK is paranormal, then you say it isn't. Which is it?


Admitting your mistake might help you regain whatever credibility you might have. Failure to clarify what you are trying to say by avoiding the criticism, suggests that you do not fully understand the topic and further discredits your opinions on this subject.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10870861 -

Your bestest post ever.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10870862 -

Icelander said:
What few here seem to realize about their  "personal experience" is that it is meaningless if it is misinterpreted. And interpretation being completely subjective we cannot know if our interpretation is based in flawed logic or flawed emotionalism.


Very good point indeed; I find it odd that some people believe that their subjective drug-induced perceptions exist outside in the objective world, I think it's all a product of wishful thinking, a logical fallacy.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Poid]
    #10870874 -

Well maybe not all, some drug induced revelations can be verified in the sober state. (But never in Kentucky)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10870890 -

A revelation is different than a hallucination, though; I can have a revelation while high, sober, drunk, etc., but I've never hallucinated while sober...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Poid]
    #10870902 -

How would you know that? You may be strapped to a gurney from your first acid trip hallucinating all of this nonsense.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10870917 -

Eyev knpwn this noncents sence I wuz a lil' boy!  :monopoly:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10870980 -

Here then let's recap:

A paranormal event cannot be experienced; then no one can know of it.

A paranormal event can be experienced, yet somehow does not interact with the world in any way.

Which is your stance?


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10871060 -

deranger said:
toys in the attic said:
johnm214 said:
Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?


How can you claim that you have the ability to detect everything? It is very reasonable to consider that your detection methods are inadequate.


This is exactly the attitude I am against.  It is pure arrogance.  I'll take your advice, this is going nowhere except in circles.




So instead of challenging a poster's logic, and answering criticism, in the search for the most logically defensible position, you call people arrogant, leave questions unanswered, and announce you are taking your toys and going home?


Great, thanks for playing.  (maybe it would go somewhere but circles if people would answer the criticisms leveled against their position?  Is that just crazy or what?  Better to announce your quitting the discussion while throwin ga charge of arrogance out. :thumbup:




And while I see you've allready decided the matter prior to my response to toys' question, not very open-minded brah, I'll provide it anyways.


Obviously some things may not be detectable.  By can be detected I mean that they will produce a phenomena that would be possible to observe, not that every phenomena is able to be observed.  This is quite obvious a point, I'm sorry if you somehow thought I was alleging perfect knowledge of the universe, but wouldn't it be smarter to construe a post in a way that doesn't allege such craziness?  "Can" means able, not presently or expediently able, in my post



In any case, this is all irrrelevant.  If it is capable of becoming known to people, then it is capable of being observed and tested, as teh very fact it is knowingly affecting a person means it is allready observed.


Anybody who claims they know of some parnaormal activity a) has the burden of proof, b) cannot claim that it is indetectable scientifically by the very fact that they were aware of it, as their very awareness is detection (even ignoring the consequent conclusion that the means of affecting the person could similarly be tested for)



It seems to me we have people answering the questions put to them, and another group ignoring all criticism.  How strange that the later is the group of people who claim the discussion is going in circles when they refuse to participate in the dialogue, and throw out personalisms.


Oh well, take your toys and go home.  Far better than to announce you quit in a huff then wait for someone to respond to the criticism you somehow (though you fail to say how) find ultimately dispositive of the debate.  I think you need to work on being more openminded :thumbup:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10871176 -

Quote:
par⋅a⋅nor⋅mal
  /ˌpærəˈnɔrməl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [par-uh-nawr-muhl] Show IPA
Use paranormal in a Sentence
–adjective
of or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation, as psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, or other purportedly supernatural phenomena.


Astral projection (a perception) has no full scientific explanation, so by definition the word fits.  I don't know why you can't understand this, but I have tried to help you.  Now I'm done, and I just gave a reasonable explanation.  Make up anything else you want :thumbup:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10871185 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here then let's recap:

A paranormal event cannot be experienced; then no one can know of it.

A paranormal event can be experienced, yet somehow does not interact with the world in any way.

Which is your stance?


Neither. How can something be experienced yet not interact with the world in any way?

Science cannot explain everything.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10871193 -

deranger said:
Astral projection (a perception) has no full scientific explanation...


Ok, give me the partial scientific explanation. :wink:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10871255 -

:wtf:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10871326 -

zen buddy said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Here then let's recap:

A paranormal event cannot be experienced; then no one can know of it.

A paranormal event can be experienced, yet somehow does not interact with the world in any way.

Which is your stance?


Neither. How can something be experienced yet not interact with the world in any way?

Science cannot explain everything.




You sure do love to manufacture and then defeat these arguments,don't ya?  Who said science could explain everything (also: see orgone's explanation for why this doesn't even make sense)?

This has nothing to do with what science can explain, and that has not been the discussion.  Is this sudden change to explanation rather than testing and observation intentional?  For some reason you've still not conceeded the point despite numerous explanations for how astral projection could be observed and tested.  How do you still maintain these claims?



deranger said:
Quote:
par⋅a⋅nor⋅mal
  /ˌp�rəˈnɔrməl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [par-uh-nawr-muhl] Show IPA
Use paranormal in a Sentence
�adjective
of or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation, as psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, or other purportedly supernatural phenomena.


Astral projection (a perception) has no full scientific explanation, so by definition the word fits.  I don't know why you can't understand this, but I have tried to help you.  Now I'm done, and I just gave a reasonable explanation.  Make up anything else you want :thumbup:




I don't understand the point of this...


Who was talking of "full scientific explanation"?  Again, why are people suddenly changing the argument when their claims have been refuted (in my views)?

Further, why are you claiming I don't understand that astral projection has no full scientific explanation?  Where have I made evidenct I have trouble with this claim?


It seems that your claims have been shown erroneous, and so you've started calling people names and alleging they cannot understand some irrelevant claim that wasn't mentioned at all previously.


Your the one who said you were frustrated by arguments going in circles, but here you've just switched the discusion to a heretofore undiscussed topic and proceded without showing the connection nor with backing your claims that people don't understand your thoughts.  Further, you've not shown what relevance these things have to anything at all being discussed.


Maybe you'd be less frustrated and feel less need to call people arrogant if you'd stick to what we're discussing and show relevance when you suddenly switch your topic mid-stream.



We don't fully understand talking either, that doesn't mean we can't observe it or test for its presence, absence, propogation, et cet. 

I'm baffled as to how you claim to be frustrated given the above.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10871470 -

That was the point I originally intended to make.  Measured, explained it's all the same shit here.  Sure, we may be able to in the future, but that's not what I mean.

Edit:  Also, I realize that when I said, "it cannot be measured by scientific means", it obviously seemed like that meant it cannot and never will.  I do believe that one day it is possible we may find some answers.  Pardon if the wording was off.  And reading back it looks as though I said AP cannot be experienced by the masses.  What I intended to say is that it is not experienced by the masses.

Edited by deranger (08/16/09 05:29 PM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10871481 -

johnm214 said:
Obviously some things may not be detectable.  By can be detected I mean that they will produce a phenomena that would be possible to observe, not that every phenomena is able to be observed.  This is quite obvious a point, I'm sorry if you somehow thought I was alleging perfect knowledge of the universe, but wouldn't it be smarter to construe a post in a way that doesn't allege such craziness?  "Can" means able, not presently or expediently able, in my post

In any case, this is all irrrelevant.  If it is capable of becoming known to people, then it is capable of being observed and tested, as teh very fact it is knowingly affecting a person means it is allready observed.


Anybody who claims they know of some parnaormal activity a) has the burden of proof, b) cannot claim that it is indetectable scientifically by the very fact that they were aware of it, as their very awareness is detection (even ignoring the consequent conclusion that the means of affecting the person could similarly be tested for)





So you are saying that I would have been smarter to respond to what you meant instead of what you said. You really meant that we will develop the ability to detect it or will see its effects on the environment.

I already talked about radiation. It was probably paranormal before they became able to understand what it was. It caused burns on people and produced visible phenomena because if it didn't people wouldn't know about it.

The radiation scenario seems to be the whole of your argument.

The things mentioned by deranger, myself and possibly others occur within the mind. That is how people are aware of it. How do you propose to verify something that is internal. I also mentioned the spirits encountered during trips.

How would you verify an alien abduction?

As far as the burden of proof falling on the claimant. I guess you assume that the claimant cares to prove it to you. If you want to sit and wait for someone else to prove something to you then that is your prerogative. The hostility directed at people who claim something on this forum is really not something I care to experience.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10871862 -

johnm214 said:
zen buddy said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Here then let's recap:

A paranormal event cannot be experienced; then no one can know of it.

A paranormal event can be experienced, yet somehow does not interact with the world in any way.

Which is your stance?


Neither. How can something be experienced yet not interact with the world in any way?

Science cannot explain everything.




You sure do love to manufacture and then defeat these arguments,don't ya?  Who said science could explain everything (also: see orgone's explanation for why this doesn't even make sense)?

This has nothing to do with what science can explain, and that has not been the discussion.  Is this sudden change to explanation rather than testing and observation intentional?  For some reason you've still not conceeded the point despite numerous explanations for how astral projection could be observed and tested.  How do you still maintain these claims?




He asked me a question and answered... and the paranormal has everything to do with what science cannot explain. (very relevant for this discussion)

... you do realize that we are talking about the paranormal, right?

I am really enjoying these threads about paranormal as they continue to demonstrate what this community is made of. Let your true colors shine.

How are we supposed to have a debate when many of us don't understand the words, let alone the topics being discussed?

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10871886 -

Quote:
Neither. How can something be experienced yet not interact with the world in any way?


Agreed. If it does interact then it can be detected. Too simple perhaps, but that was the whole point.


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10871996 -

Actually there's a big difference between something being detected and something being measured and tested.

It seems that the "whole point" has changed since your OP.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10872016 -

I noticed The second half got lost, too.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10872064 -

Quote:
Actually there's a big difference between something being detected and something being measured and tested.


Really? This should prove interesting.


--------------------

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10872120 -

:rolleyes:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10872158 -

I think it is great that you can use emoticons. Now if you could master elaboration...


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10872197 -

I'm not a kindergarten teacher.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10872289 -

deranger said:
That was the point I originally intended to make.  Measured, explained it's all the same shit here.  Sure, we may be able to in the future, but that's not what I mean.

Edit:  Also, I realize that when I said, "it cannot be measured by scientific means", it obviously seemed like that meant it cannot and never will.  I do believe that one day it is possible we may find some answers.  Pardon if the wording was off.  And reading back it looks as though I said AP cannot be experienced by the masses.  What I intended to say is that it is not experienced by the masses.




Ok, I understand your point, but I don't think the difference between measured, tested, observed, and explained are at all the subtle.  The last one means understanding, the former just mean detected or quantized.


It seems perhaps we didn't understand each other, but can you at least understand why your post met with resistance when you met the later rather than one of the former (which you actually used in your post)?


Anyways, it is no distinction that astral projection cannot be explained fully (if this is true) as hardly anything is.  Like I said, we can't explain talking fully, so what?  That doesn't mean its hard to notice or repeatably measure.


The point here is that if astral projection is real that it should be detectable, same with everything else.  The fact that no decent evidence for some paranormal claims can be found when observing their effects seems to show they are likely not real.  When the effect claimed would be excluded generally by the failure to detect it, it seems their is no refuge in soem definition of paranormal nor claim that it couldn't be detected because of its nature (and yet people claim they can detect things like telepathy but 'science can't).

Personally I doubt astral projection could be rulled out even if it doesn't exist, at most excluded as having certain properties, like able to reliably visualize particular known galaxies or whatever.  Other paranormal pheneomena, like telepathy, doesn't seem to have this luxury.




toys in the attic said:
johnm214 said:
Obviously some things may not be detectable.  By can be detected I mean that they will produce a phenomena that would be possible to observe, not that every phenomena is able to be observed.  This is quite obvious a point, I'm sorry if you somehow thought I was alleging perfect knowledge of the universe, but wouldn't it be smarter to construe a post in a way that doesn't allege such craziness?  "Can" means able, not presently or expediently able, in my post

In any case, this is all irrrelevant.  If it is capable of becoming known to people, then it is capable of being observed and tested, as teh very fact it is knowingly affecting a person means it is allready observed.


Anybody who claims they know of some parnaormal activity a) has the burden of proof, b) cannot claim that it is indetectable scientifically by the very fact that they were aware of it, as their very awareness is detection (even ignoring the consequent conclusion that the means of affecting the person could similarly be tested for)





So you are saying that I would have been smarter to respond to what you meant instead of what you said. You really meant that we will develop the ability to detect it or will see its effects on the environment.

I already talked about radiation. It was probably paranormal before they became able to understand what it was. It caused burns on people and produced visible phenomena because if it didn't people wouldn't know about it.

The radiation scenario seems to be the whole of your argument.

The things mentioned by deranger, myself and possibly others occur within the mind. That is how people are aware of it. How do you propose to verify something that is internal. I also mentioned the spirits encountered during trips.

How would you verify an alien abduction?


Who said anything about verification?  Again, the terms of the issue seem to be switching now that counterexamples have been proffered.

Anyways, you could verify astral projection by demonstrating accurate and sufficiently percise descriptions of various galaxies by people who presumably have no way of knowing such information but for their projection.


As for whether you should take from my posts what I mean rather than what I say, I obviously hope they are the same thing.  Personally I think given the ridiculous nature of the interpretation you urge,  (that I asserted we may presently detect everything in the universe, which is riridculous vs that it is possible, even if not presently, to detect everything in the universe) it should be plain which meaning I mean, given they are both valid gramatically.

But if I was wrong, then I was wrong, and I appologize for that.  As I said, I don't see how this is relevant anyways, given what we are discusing is detectable by people conciously, and thus the distinction is completely irrelevant.

Quote:
As far as the burden of proof falling on the claimant. I guess you assume that the claimant cares to prove it to you. If you want to sit and wait for someone else to prove something to you then that is your prerogative. The hostility directed at people who claim something on this forum is really not something I care to experience.


Then stop caring to experience whatever your referring to and stop making claims you can't back it up.

I don't presume pariticular claimaints care to prove their case, otherwise they'd stop saying shit they can't back up without even an attempt at justifying it, and I don't see what that matters.  If you assert something it falls on you to demonstrate its worthiness of belief.  Essentially, you need a reason to believe things and naked assertions are logically worthless.  This being a debate forum, and this being a debate, th erelevant of this seems plain.


One thing I'll never get is why people vaguely refer to hostile attitudes without pointing them out with examples.  They seem like impotent whines rather than serious accusations, given that folks never seem to back them up.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: zen buddy]
    #10872301 -

Great! Now you have learned the entirely useless non-sequitur. I guess anything is preferable to backing up your contention.


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10872656 -

Sorry, johnm
You are all over the place and making little sense. I made no claims. You don't even know what paranormal means. Then you post these two posts.
johnm214 said:
If it exists it can be measured.


johnm214 said:
Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?



Then expect me not to take it at face value.

As far as hostile attitude, try reading any of mushroomtrip's posts or read your own posts to Zen Buddy.

Edited by toys in the attic (08/16/09 10:08 PM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10874149 -

toys in the attic said:
Sorry, johnm
You are all over the place and making little sense. I made no claims. You don't even know what paranormal means. Then you post these two posts.
johnm214 said:
If it exists it can be measured.


johnm214 said:
Either way, it seems you need to explain orgone's point away- how the hell can something not be detectable yet exist?



Then expect me not to take it at face value.

As far as hostile attitude, try reading any of mushroomtrip's posts or read your own posts to Zen Buddy.



What am I not making sense about?  How do you conclude I don't know what paranormal means, and what does it matter?  I was referring to things like I and other brought up, if these aren't paranormal then it would be better to state your objection and definition then making such a blatant unuseful statement.  Even if true, does this change anything at all?


As for the "detectable" issue, I don't know what you want man.


So far as I can see, I'm the only one who appologized for saying something wrong or at least not what I meant to communicate percisely. 


I don't know what else you want here, I said I was wrong, appologized for the confusion, and .... what's left? 


Further, as i said preivously, I fail to see how this makes any difference at all given the examples cited are detectable under any definition, and the distinction makes no difference.  When someone becomes conciously aware of the phenomena, its detected.


I don't get the issue, even if I wouldn't have corrected my statement, what does it matter?

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10874650 -

johnm214 said:
Ok, I understand your point, but I don't think the difference between measured, tested, observed, and explained are at all the subtle.  The last one means understanding, the former just mean detected or quantized.


If we could detect where consciousness is during such an experience, that would provide an explanation necessary for us to determine whether or not the experience is solely happening within the brain and body.  So there isn't much of a difference to me when it comes to something intangible like consciousness or experience.  Sure we can measure some aspects of the experience, but we cannot measure the totality of the experience, because we cannot fully locate exactly where it is happening.  Like bliss, we can measure aspects of it, like the neural activity or brainwaves it is associated with, but we cannot yet measure where exactly it is being felt in the body.  Yet the feeling is real.

And whether or not the experience happens inside or out of the boy is irrelevant, because it can still happen solely within the body and still be paranormal.  There may be a lot more to our body than we know.  And it cannot be thrown off solely as imagination, because imagining something is a whole lot different than experiencing a lucid dream that feels more real than the waking state.

Edited by deranger (08/17/09 08:17 AM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10874814 -

I do believe that one day it is possible we may find some answers.

Maybe we've already found the answers but you can't accept them.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10874903 -

Icelander said:
I do believe that one day it is possible we may find some answers.

Maybe we've already found the answers but you can't accept them.:shrug:


Maybe your answers are nothing but opinions which can't be seen for what they are :lol:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10874921 -

Maybe, I can admit that many of my beliefs are personal opinion. However when it comes to this paranormal stuff there seem to have been plenty of testing done with always negative results. So my guess here is you are the one in denial.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10874954 -

That doesn't make certain experience non paranormal, the tests don't explain what the experience is, what is happening during it, and how/why they happen.  Your missing my point.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10874975 -

Your point I take it is that anything is possible.

But that's not much of a point IMO. It's so obvious. But without evidence for something it's pointless claim it's existence.

Now if one were to say it's possible but there is no evidence that would be logical. But if one's claim is that it's true because it's possible, well...


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10875030 -

Icelander said:
Your point I take it is that anything is possible.

But that's not much of a point IMO. It's so obvious. But without evidence for something it's pointless claim it's existence.


If an experience didn't exist it wouldn't have been experienced.  Should I deny all your dreams just because you can't prove that you dreamt?

Quote:
Now if one were to say it's possible but there is no evidence that would be logical. But if one's claim is that it's true because it's possible, well...



The experience is true, our interpretation of it is most likely isn't.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10875035 -

Why do you think they call them dreams?

our interpretation of it is most likely isn't.

Here we agree. But if the interpretation is incorrect there is no point in discussing the experience, except as fantasy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10875073 -

Dreams are experienced by everyone, AP and OBEs aren't. 

And experiencing something is not fantasy, though that which is being experienced may be.  But even then, to call it fantasy, is not explaining it in much detail... at all :lol:

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10875084 -

All that  is beside the point IMO.

If you can't interpret your experience accurately then how do you know what that experience actually was?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10875105 -

I don't see what that's got to do with whether or not the experience is paranormal.  The truth is, it is experienced, and there is no scientific explanation as to what it is we are experiencing, and this is what makes it paranormal.  Calling it a fantasy is not a scientific explanation.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10875120 -

it is experienced

What is experienced? How can you consider something paranormal if you don't know what happened?:crazy2:

Everything would be paranormal by your definition, as nothing can be known for sure.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10875144 -

The experience is experienced.  That's exactly why we label things as paranormal, because we can't explain what happened.  And no, not everything would be paranormal, because for example the world, is experienced by everyone.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10875162 -

The world is not experienced by everyone in the same way. This would make it paranormal IMO.

If you can't explain what happened then how can you presume to talk about it? The folk here who claim paranormal experience almost always tell you what it was that happened, what it means or signifies. They say, OBE, Flying Saucer, God, Devil, Faeries, All oneness, Flying spaghetti monster.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Icelander]
    #10875177 -

Icelander said:
The world is not experienced by everyone in the same way. This would make it paranormal IMO.


So?  The same air is still breathed by everyone.  It's all the same earth we walk on.

Quote:
If you can't explain what happened then how can you presume to talk about it? The folk here who claim paranormal experience almost always tell you what it was that happened, what it means or signifies. They say, OBE, Flying Saucer, God, Devil, Faeries, All oneness, Flying spaghetti monster.:shrug:


We can talk about it... we can call them paranormal experiences.  We can talk about how to experience them, what we think happened.  If we want to give meaning to them and attach fantasies (interpretations) to them, that is something different.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: deranger]
    #10875431 -

So?  The same air is still breathed by everyone.  It's all the same earth we walk on.

So then with paranormal activities or are you saying they only belong to a chosen few.


We can talk about it... we can call them paranormal experiences.  We can talk about how to experience them, what we think happened.  If we want to give meaning to them and attach fantasies (interpretations) to them, that is something different.

Sure but I would think that would include the possibility that one was deluding themselves about what did actually happen.

I really don't know if such stuff exists. It would be more interesting if they did, but I have never seen any evidence.:shrug:

Same for God.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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